Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Jace021903]

One of the problems with a lot of the main ships on tv shows is that tptb of the shows seem to feel that the longer the wait for the pay off, the more satisfying. So, they have to either keep putting up these contrived situations, or in the case of J/S ship they have to bring it up at all, even though they've said it can't happen. What's the point of a ship that they've set up never to bring into fruitiion? I find usually the main ships have characters acting really foolishly just to drag it out. And, those minor ships that the writers don't think of that much show growth or just fun and normal pleasant interaction between two people.

There's so much good stuff in this quote.

I think writing on on-going ship is a delicate balance because you have to keep people tuning in to see what happens next but you also have to keep the integrity of the characters so people will still want to root for them.

With a lot of shows, the longer the "dance" between the potential love birds go on, the more silly the characters start to look and the more contrived the situations. Why would I root for a couple if I no longer recognize or even like them? I'm usually thinking, "can we *please* just get this over with and move on?"

Again, that makes me think of Grey's Anatomy. Now, there are a lot of problems with the way they handle the ships (especially the main ship, which is why I hate it) but they didn't tiptoe up to the line of breaking the rules and pull back, and go back up, and pull back. They have two couples (well one couple and one used to be couple that they're dangling the carrot over) made up of attendings and interns. And, they deal with problems of people assuming that one intern is getting special treatment because she's sleeping with one of her supervisors and them treating her badly, and another attending realizing why those relationships aren't usually allowed, because he found himself not being able to separate the identity of his girlfriend with his student. I'm sure in real life there'd be official censuring, or reprimands, or something bigger than on tv, but I liked that even that much, they acknowledged that they're making characters break the rules and there are consequences. And, one of those couples are my favorite. I find it much better than not doing anything.

What I like best about GA is that they play out all of the consequences and the emotional beats. And, as you mentioned before, all the characters are allowed to have relationships with many people--not just the ones that they are romantically involved with. So we get to see the friendships and teacher-student relationships, etc...And I don't even really care about who gets who in the end, I just am interested in seeing what happens next--that's good drama.

[JessM]

There's so much good stuff in this quote.

I think writing on on-going ship is a delicate balance because you have to keep people tuning in to see what happens next but you also have to keep the integrity of the characters so people will still want to root for them.

With a lot of shows, the longer the "dance" between the potential love birds go on, the more silly the characters start to look and the more contrived the situations. Why would I root for a couple if I no longer recognize or even like them? I'm usually thinking, "can we *please* just get this over with and move on?"

I have to agree... not that I ever rooted for Sam and Jack as a couple (well, I sort of liked it the first time I ever watched the show... but that was during season 6...and maybe only for a few months... I wasn't a rabid shipper by any means, either), but I started disliking them more as individual characters by season 8, especially Sam. I thought she started to look quite silly and wasn't the more confident, assured persona she'd been in earlier seasons.

[Luz]

I have to agree... not that I ever rooted for Sam and Jack as a couple (well, I sort of liked it the first time I ever watched the show... but that was during season 6...and maybe only for a few months... I wasn't a rabid shipper by any means, either), but I started disliking them more as individual characters by season 8, especially Sam. I thought she started to look quite silly and wasn't the more confident, assured persona she'd been in earlier seasons.

ITA, by season eight i couldn't stand the show, not all of it was because of the ship mind you, i've never stopped watching a show just because of ship.
And i stopped liking Daniel, whom i'd loved ever since the movie, but that's beside the point.
By season eight i could hardly recognise any of the characters, except Teal'c whom i'd never cared for any way.
But back to the ship, i think tptb go to such lengths to keep milking the ust, that they're willing to put the characters through situations such as the Pete thing, and i don't remember the name of o'neill's girlfriend, the one that was put there to make Carter look like a bitter jealous fifteen year old.
And that's what bugged me the most, i never liked o'neill much, by season eight i plain hated the character, but i kind of liked Carter, and i lost so much respect for her, seeing her acting so needy, being with Peter, but using him as second best, to settle. And O'neill acted like he couldn't care less, actually he looked quite content with the other woman, and might i add the actor had a lot more chemistry with that actress.
I know that pair was supposed to be there to show us how wrong it was for Carter and O'neill to be with other people, and how purrfect they were for eachother, but they looked better together, and at least O'neill looked mildly interested, which is more than can be said about the way he acted around Carter.

[Dani347]

and i don't remember the name of o'neill's girlfriend, the one that was put there to make Carter look like a bitter jealous fifteen year old.

I think her name was Plot Device. But, they called her Kerry on the show.

I know that pair was supposed to be there to show us how wrong it was for Carter and O'neill to be with other people, and how purrfect they were for eachother, but they looked better together, and at least O'neill looked mildly interested, which is more than can be said about the way he acted around Carter.

And, I hate when they make characters to just illustrate how great the "true" love is. Because more often than not, I start liking the poor fools that are just there to be sacrificed. I liked Pete. Kerry didn't stay long enough to make an impression, so I didn't really care one way or the other about her personally, but on principle, I hated her being created just to push the ship.

[fishyone]

ITA, by season eight i couldn't stand the show, not all of it was because of the ship mind you, i've never stopped watching a show just because of ship.
And i stopped liking Daniel, whom i'd loved ever since the movie, but that's beside the point.
By season eight i could hardly recognise any of the characters, except Teal'c whom i'd never cared for any way.
But back to the ship, i think tptb go to such lengths to keep milking the ust, that they're willing to put the characters through situations such as the Pete thing, and i don't remember the name of o'neill's girlfriend, the one that was put there to make Carter look like a bitter jealous fifteen year old.
And that's what bugged me the most, i never liked o'neill much, by season eight i plain hated the character, but i kind of liked Carter, and i lost so much respect for her, seeing her acting so needy, being with Peter, but using him as second best, to settle. And O'neill acted like he couldn't care less, actually he looked quite content with the other woman, and might i add the actor had a lot more chemistry with that actress.
I know that pair was supposed to be there to show us how wrong it was for Carter and O'neill to be with other people, and how purrfect they were for eachother, but they looked better together, and at least O'neill looked mildly interested, which is more than can be said about the way he acted around Carter.

I agree... I saw more chemistry between Jack and Kerry than I did between Jack and Sam. I look over it (I used to be a S/J shipper, but I thought about it one day and it just made no sense), and I see that to be the case all along. I see Sam being the one who had it, and AT's performance was the one that sold the ship... Sadly, a one-sided ship that degraded her character.

[JessM]

I agree... I saw more chemistry between Jack and Kerry than I did between Jack and Sam. I look over it (I used to be a S/J shipper, but I thought about it one day and it just made no sense), and I see that to be the case all along. I see Sam being the one who had it, and AT's performance was the one that sold the ship... Sadly, a one-sided ship that degraded her character.

Count me in. I definitely saw more chemistry in those two, as well as the actors, than I did between Jack and Sam. I did think it was ridiculous how they used those two characters (Pete and Kerry) to illustrate how it's wrong for Sam and Jack to be with other people. It does make me feel bad for them. I was never really crazy about Pete - I didn't hate him, but I was just "eh" about him. I started feeling really sorry for him in Threads though, after the way Sam treated him. She said yes to his proposal in Affinity, and then because Jack is with another woman she starts feeling all insecure and unhappy and has to break up with him.

I've started to like her again in season 9. I really hope that they won't try anything ridiculous like this again with RDA's appearances in season 10. On another thread, someone had posted some spoiler quotes that seemed a BIT promising....

Spoiler:

in an interview, AT said something to the effect that she didn't want to be "the girl" mooning over her CO any longer. RDA said that he would just as soon see the characters be friends.

Although, I guess the feelings of the actors don't necessarily reflect those of tptb......

[Luz]

I've started to like her again in season 9. I really hope that they won't try anything ridiculous like this again with RDA's appearances in season 10. On another thread, someone had posted some spoiler quotes that seemed a BIT promising....

Spoiler:

in an interview, AT said something to the effect that she didn't want to be "the girl" mooning over her CO any longer. RDA said that he would just as soon see the characters be friends.

Although, I guess the feelings of the actors don't necessarily reflect those of tptb......

I haven't seen any of season nine yet, it starts here right after season two of SGA ends. I've heard mixed reviews, some people love it and say it's great, some say it's terrible. I'll give it a try, i loved season eight of TXF, so i might like seasone nine of SG1. don't know how one thing is related to the other, but that's how my logic works .
And no i don't think actors have any influence over how ship works, from what i heard a while back AT wasn't into S/J, but her character practicaly spent all of season eight mooning over O'neill.
I understand what S/J shippers are going through, with what i went through with Mulder and Scully, i know how cheated some of them would feel if there was no RST. So i can't really begrudge them that, but i have a feeling these tptb can't write decent RST to save their butts, so i know if there is RSt it's going to be disastrous.
And the 'ust' (although for me there wasn't any) was dragged for so long, Carter looked so pathetic, and as someone else said (i think it was on this thread) it was so onesided. I really don't care much, whatever happens, i know tptb will pull a last minute cop out resolution, 'cause that's what they always do.

[luthienberen]

Hey everyone, I'm new to this thread, and I'm glad it's here (I've been skewered by S/J people before and I'm tired of it). I hated how they tried to force this 'ship back in season 4, and I hated what it did to Sam in seasons 7 and 8...she was practically mooning over Jack, agonizing over what to do... I thought she was going to move on after Grace and even though I didn't care for Pete very much, if it meant the end of that blatant shippiness, then all the better. I hated Threads, and I really hated Moebius Part 2.

Spoiler:

I really liked the interaction between Geek!Sam and Geek!Daniel in part one and the beginning of part 2 - I have friends who aren't shippers and even thought they were cute. But then of course they had to get rid of that and make Geek!Sam head over heels for AU Jack.

I think it almost ruined Sam's character - instead of seeing the confident, female soldier that we're used to, we were seeing, as I said before, someone mooning over her CO. I know that Sam is not perfect, but she almost lost my respect there. I was glad that there wasn't really anything in season 9, and I've started to like her better for it. With the news that RDA will be in a few eps in S10, I hope they don't try anything like they did in seasons 4, 7 and 8.

I think it did ruin Carter's character completey. Now I'll admit that I hated Sam Carter from the word go, but I did have some sort of minor respect for her - but 'ship crushed all of that, especially the way Carter was protrayed in later Seasons.

Pete IMO was too good for her. He had a lucky escape.

But Jack/Sam ship destroyed both characters, and made Carter look like a hormonal, incapable and immoral woman. Not to mention delusional since it was all one sided (my opinion!). Jack lost his brain and much more .

I just couldn't understand why TPTB couldn't leave it subtle. That way, everyone can see what they want to see, whether it be Jack/Sam, Sam/Daniel, Daniel/Sha'uri, Jack/Daniel, Janet/Daniel etc. Especially considering TPTB have proved they cannot write romance by continually forcing it between two characters who have no chemistry.

Personally, I do not want to see ANY ship on the show. I'm happy with fanfic. If they had to pair off characters I would have liked to see Jack back with Sara (now there were two people who had chemistry) and Daniel with Sha'uri.

The way it has been forced has made me shudder whenever I watch old episodes with Jack and Carter in the same scene. I never saw any attraction between the two, and ship came as a nasty shock in S4, but now I'm wondering - these scenes are suspect. And I hate that.

Anyway, glad you found the thread - it is a safe haven for us who dislike Jack/Sam!

[fishyone]

I think it did ruin Carter's character completey. Now I'll admit that I hated Sam Carter from the word go, but I did have some sort of minor respect for her - but 'ship crushed all of that, especially the way Carter was protrayed in later Seasons.

I've always liked Sam, at least until the later seasons. I just couldn't stand what the ship did to a strong, confident woman... And I noticed her civilian clothes got more revealing and more objectifying in the later seasons. Sure, Sam's got a nice figure, but did we need to flaunt that as much as Chimera did? She started losing my respect there, and I was S/J when I first saw it.

But Jack/Sam ship destroyed both characters, and made Carter look like a hormonal, incapable and immoral woman. Not to mention delusional since it was all one sided (my opinion!). Jack lost his brain and much more .

Yeah, I hated how Stupid Jack started appearing more and more as they pushed the ship. And I don't see what that added to the ship... It makes it more unbelieveable in my opinion.

I just couldn't understand why TPTB couldn't leave it subtle. That way, everyone can see what they want to see, whether it be Jack/Sam, Sam/Daniel, Daniel/Sha'uri, Jack/Daniel, Janet/Daniel etc. Especially considering TPTB have proved they cannot write romance by continually forcing it between two characters who have no chemistry.

It would have been better if they had. I think the show would have been much better for it if they had. I also think people would not be as upset by season 9 if they had... Since I think... (I may be wrong) a few s/j shippers stopped watching when Jack left because they didn't get their ship resolved...

Personally, I do not want to see ANY ship on the show. I'm happy with fanfic. If they had to pair off characters I would have liked to see Jack back with Sara (now there were two people who had chemistry) and Daniel with Sha'uri.

I agree. I knew when I stopped shipping for S/J and started shipping for Daniel/Sam that I'd never see my ship on-screen and I'm happy with that. I just wish that there would be no ship at all... Because based on S/J, I don't think the writers can do it...

The way it has been forced has made me shudder whenever I watch old episodes with Jack and Carter in the same scene. I never saw any attraction between the two, and ship came as a nasty shock in S4, but now I'm wondering - these scenes are suspect. And I hate that.

I know... I used to like Solitudes and Point of View, but now I can't hardly watch those episodes because I can't stand the ship in them... And I've always hated Divide & Conquer because it killed Martouf... (an obstacle to S/J)... I had forgotten that episode was a "ship" episode. Yeah... it's shippy, but someone had to die in it... That makes it a good episode? And people love it? Watch it over and over? Just seems wrong to me.

Anyway, glad you found the thread - it is a safe haven for us who dislike Jack/Sam!

I'm glad this thread exists. I need a place where I can say exactly what I think about s/j without fear of retaliation.

[luthienberen]

I've always liked Sam, at least until the later seasons. I just couldn't stand what the ship did to a strong, confident woman... And I noticed her civilian clothes got more revealing and more objectifying in the later seasons. Sure, Sam's got a nice figure, but did we need to flaunt that as much as Chimera did? She started losing my respect there, and I was S/J when I first saw it.

That is one of the problems with the show fpr the last few seasons, especially pronounced in S9. Who can forget Vala's costumes? And it shows how bad it is/was that it turned a S/J shipper to an anti-one!

Yeah, I hated how Stupid Jack started appearing more and more as they pushed the ship. And I don't see what that added to the ship... It makes it more unbelieveable in my opinion.

Yes, when you comapre the Jack of S1-3 to the Jack of later Seasons (mostly S7-9) it is an enitrely different Jack.

I agree. I knew when I stopped shipping for S/J and started shipping for Daniel/Sam that I'd never see my ship on-screen and I'm happy with that. I just wish that there would be no ship at all... Because based on S/J, I don't think the writers can do it...

TPTB cannot write ship so they should STAY AWAY from it and let fanficition cover it - and many authors do it so much better it is pathetic.

I know... I used to like Solitudes and Point of View, but now I can't hardly watch those episodes because I can't stand the ship in them... And I've always hated Divide & Conquer because it killed Martouf... (an obstacle to S/J)... I had forgotten that episode was a "ship" episode. Yeah... it's shippy, but someone had to die in it... That makes it a good episode? And people love it? Watch it over and over? Just seems wrong to me.

See ... that's another reason I loathe ship so much - Narim, Martouf, Pete and Jacob all obstacles who were touted and removed to serve ship.

I'm glad this thread exists. I need a place where I can say exactly what I think about s/j without fear of retaliation.

Definitely, it can get quite scary out there.

[fishyone]

That is one of the problems with the show fpr the last few seasons, especially pronounced in S9. Who can forget Vala's costumes? And it shows how bad it is/was that it turned a S/J shipper to an anti-one!

Lol. Yeah, I guess it does. (Vala's costumes...had a whole rant on that on the Anti-Vala thread, though I don't hate her, just have issues with her). I was just so disappointed with the way the show changed directions in the last few seasons... The objectifying, the over-shippy episodes... I looked at the other couples I shipped for and saw the S/J ship in a new light...and hated it...

Yes, when you comapre the Jack of S1-3 to the Jack of later Seasons (mostly S7-9) it is an enitrely different Jack.

He is different. That Jack was almost embarrassing. I couldn't believe they gave him command of the SGC. And that should have made the s/j ship even less possible, but that didn't stop the writers...

TPTB cannot write ship so they should STAY AWAY from it and let fanficition cover it - and many authors do it so much better it is pathetic.

I agree. The fanfiction out there can be horrible, but there's some I've read that's better than the show. Fanfiction is the only place I'll see my ship, and I don't mind because the writers would ruin it if they did it...

See ... that's another reason I loathe ship so much - Narim, Martouf, Pete and Jacob all obstacles who were touted and removed to serve ship.

I hated that Jacob died more or less to push the ship. That was horrible because he wasn't for it...

Definitely, it can get quite scary out there.

I was thinking that shipping can be almost religious for people, and they can be rather fanatical about it. And if you don't ship what they ship, you're a heretic, and they want to burn you at the stake. Maybe I'm taking it too far, but it sometimes feels that way.

[JessM]

And no i don't think actors have any influence over how ship works, from what i heard a while back AT wasn't into S/J, but her character practicaly spent all of season eight mooning over O'neill.
I understand what S/J shippers are going through, with what i went through with Mulder and Scully, i know how cheated some of them would feel if there was no RST. So i can't really begrudge them that, but i have a feeling these tptb can't write decent RST to save their butts, so i know if there is RSt it's going to be disastrous.
And the 'ust' (although for me there wasn't any) was dragged for so long, Carter looked so pathetic, and as someone else said (i think it was on this thread) it was so onesided. I really don't care much, whatever happens, i know tptb will pull a last minute cop out resolution, 'cause that's what they always do.

Sadly I agree on that last point... it certainly seemed like that was what they did at the end of Moebius, Part 2 (even if it did involve AUs).

[JessM]

You guys (fishyone and luthienberen) nailed it. I agree that this ship has seemed mostly one-sided, and I love the way you say that Jack lost his brain, luthienberen... LOL! I couldn't agree more.

It would have been better if they had. I think the show would have been much better for it if they had. I also think people would not be as upset by season 9 if they had... Since I think... (I may be wrong) a few s/j shippers stopped watching when Jack left because they didn't get their ship resolved...

This is why I like the earlier seasons better, especially seasons 1 and 2. We really didn't see any of that silly stuff, and things were more subtle between everyone basically (I personally didn't see any "UST" in Solitudes, but that's just me). I think you're right that some s/j people stopped watching when Jack left... I remember hearing some of them talk about it on various sites...and now they are thinking of watching again now that he'll be back for a bit...

I agree. I knew when I stopped shipping for S/J and started shipping for Daniel/Sam that I'd never see my ship on-screen and I'm happy with that. I just wish that there would be no ship at all... Because based on S/J, I don't think the writers can do it...

I agree with this also. I don't have any confidence (or not much) that the writers could portray my ship decently, so I would be completely happy with no ship on the show at all.

I know... I used to like Solitudes and Point of View, but now I can't hardly watch those episodes because I can't stand the ship in them... And I've always hated Divide & Conquer because it killed Martouf... (an obstacle to S/J)... I had forgotten that episode was a "ship" episode. Yeah... it's shippy, but someone had to die in it... That makes it a good episode? And people love it? Watch it over and over? Just seems wrong to me.

It did seem like many of the guys who could have been perceived as a "threat" to S/J (maybe not to many of us, but certainly to the s/j people) were killed off or gotten rid of in some other way... Martouf, Narim, Orlin, and of course Pete. As for D&C... that one definitely ranks low for me, especially because of what happens to Martouf (and the ship stuff...).

I'm glad this thread exists. I need a place where I can say exactly what I think about s/j without fear of retaliation.

Same here. Oh, and I forgot something... Luthienberen mentioned Jack and Sara... I definitely agree that those two had chemistry. I really liked them together in Cold Lazarus. You could tell that Jack still had feelings for her (as well as in Brief Candle... and Solitudes). It's really a shame that we never saw/heard of her again after that.

[JessM]

I agree. The fanfiction out there can be horrible, but there's some I've read that's better than the show. Fanfiction is the only place I'll see my ship, and I don't mind because the writers would ruin it if they did it...

Me too. I agree that we should leave the ship to fanfiction because, even though some of it isn't the greatest, it achieves what we know we'll never see on the show - and it shouldn't pit shippers against each other like the show has done (those who flame because they don't like a certain pairing in a story have no excuse if the story has been marked as such).

I hated that Jacob died more or less to push the ship. That was horrible because he wasn't for it...

Ah, I can't believe I forgot about Jacob in my list of casualties of the S/J war... I really hated that he had to die, too. I saw Carmen Argenziano at a con a few months back and he did give some indication that he didn't know it was going to happen, and wished that it didn't, but he said "that's showbiz." Luckily he can live on in the world of fanfiction.

I was thinking that shipping can be almost religious for people, and they can be rather fanatical about it. And if you don't ship what they ship, you're a heretic, and they want to burn you at the stake. Maybe I'm taking it too far, but it sometimes feels that way.

I agree with that, too. I've run into some shippers, particularly S/J, who would say things like I need to get my head out of the sand and realize that Sam and Jack were made for each other. I've been on sites where it did seem like I was a heretic. Sometimes they'd be more subtle about it, but you could tell it was there.

[luthienberen]

Glad that I made your day JessM.

Ship in my opinion went a long way in runing Jack's character for me. Ship made him callous towards his other teamates. His best friend (Daniel) was suddenly treated like dirt most of the time and as if Jack barely knew who he was any more. And I resent that utterly. Ship pushed the character of Carter forward, in the process declaring her 'perfect' and without fault - because she cannot be held responsible for her mistakes as she is MissNationalTreasure. I resent that.

Jack was reduced to the role of vivallge idiot whose main role in later Seasons seem to be 'joke man'. I resent that. An intellignet, complex character, was reduced to no more than an idiot to make Carter look good, (he can't read a pilot's manuel or construct a bomb? Did TPTB watch the film or their eariler episodes?), and to try and force the romance between the two characters. For heaven's sake! Jack (RDA) most of the time looks consipated whenever shippy stuff waltzes onto our screens.

But the Jack/Sam ship is the most digusting in how so many characters were sacrificed on its altar, all with the goal of furthering it. It also represents an USAF officer as unable - or unwilling - to act morally in the circumstances. Now, I believe whole heartedly that ship is all one sided on Carter's behalf, but TPTB are making Jack look the fool for if Carter ever did succeed in spilling her inapporiate feelings to her boss, then Jack would have to report or else appear as immoral and unhonorable.

Carter acts unprofessionally - a disgrace to her uniform - is touted as perfect, incapable of leading and stalking her disinterested boss and yet this relationship is touted as a cosmic romance?!?