Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

RE the cut scene: Another horrible example of how they handle J/S. Why say

Spoiler:

"It's complicated". Assuming you're going to put them together and refer to it, just say "Yes, I'm seeing someone back home." end of story.

Why do something that simple when you can string your fans along for another year or two? They know how loyal thier fans will be, they see no need to give them resolution.

Re: the Cassie scene. "She's a tough kid" might have played for me if we didn't then go into the "I was so worried about you" hug. I took "she's a tough kid" as "she's hanging in there at the moment and doesn't show how she's really feeling much" not as Sam not caring.
The problem was the whole scene was tainted with the discomfort of shippiness. I think I would have restructured the whole thing. Maybe Jack & Teal'c & Sam.

Or Jack, Daniel and Sam. Daniel certainly needed some comfort too, crouched alone in the dark in the room he died in, thinking of Janet and how she died before his eyes.

FF

[scarimor]

Re: the Cassie scene. "She's a tough kid" might have played for me if we didn't then go into the "I was so worried about you" hug. I took "she's a tough kid" as "she's hanging in there at the moment and doesn't show how she's really feeling much" not as Sam not caring.
The problem was the whole scene was tainted with the discomfort of shippiness...

But only for people already preoccupied on shippiness (i.e., people who can't stand it will interpret it that way as an anti-reaction, and people who want it will leap on it as further proof that it's real).

For someone like me, who at this point had seen J/S ship knocked on the head way back, and seen absolute proof in this very episode that it didn't exist - i.e. Carter putting the interviewer in his place when he started asking questions around that territory, confirming outright that she and O'Neill had only a professional relationship tyvm - it didnt look remotely shippy. Janet had died from being shot in battle and Carter was worried that O'Neill was going to go the same way. I'm sure that if Janet had lived, she'd have said the same thing to her too.

I think I would have restructured the whole thing. Maybe Jack & Teal'c & Sam.

She hugged Teal'c too. But he didn't get shot, so there was no need to express how worried she was about him. The pacing of the episode put them into separate scenes instead of one, but that doesn't mean anything more should be read into it.

In short, I think the scene is only shippy if you're a shipper, and only tainted by shippiness if you're an anti-shipper. For people of neither persuasion, its just a scene in which two close professional colleagues comfort each other over the loss of another close professional colleague, and one acknowledges her fear that the other nearly died too.

[scarimor]

scarimor, how great to see you again, it's been too long.

Thank you Given my schedule, it might be a while again

TPTB have only their own hubris to blame for expecting Amanda to always be at their beck and call and Torri to dance to their tune.

Some bright spark suggested on Mallozzi's blog that they could please all factions (J/D slashers, whump fans, the disenfranchised Torri fans) by simply writing scenes and then cutting them before they aired! Judging by how happy it has made the S/J fans on Joe's blog, he could have sent them away ecstatic years ago.

That is all they ever wanted, bless their little cotton socks

I should volunteer to ghost-write them a few scenes... wonder which ones I should choose? The slash should be fun

[Frostfox]

But only for people already preoccupied on shippiness (i.e., people who can't stand it will interpret it that way as an anti-reaction, and people who want it will leap on it as further proof that it's real).

For someone like me, who at this point had seen J/S ship knocked on the head way back, and seen absolute proof in this very episode that it didn't exist - i.e. Carter putting the interviewer in his place when he started asking questions around that territory, confirming outright that she and O'Neill had only a professional relationship tyvm - it didnt look remotely shippy. Janet had died from being shot in battle and Carter was worried that O'Neill was going to go the same way. I'm sure that if Janet had lived, she'd have said the same thing to her too.


She hugged Teal'c too. But he didn't get shot, so there was no need to express how worried she was about him. The pacing of the episode put them into separate scenes instead of one, but that doesn't mean anything more should be read into it.

In short, I think the scene is only shippy if you're a shipper, and only tainted by shippiness if you're an anti-shipper. For people of neither persuasion, its just a scene in which two close professional colleagues comfort each other over the loss of another close professional colleague, and one acknowledges her fear that the other nearly died too.

This is just a point I think we will have to agree to disagree on.
For the most part, I think you are absolutely correct, I don't read most scenes between Sam and Jack as anything other than scenes between two officers who have been to hell and back with their comrades. I'm sure those looking at them and expecting something more between them see it differently but myself and the bulk of the fanbase, no.
For example, all of Solitudes and the hug between them in Fire and Water. But the hug in Heroes, not because of the hug per se but because of the way it was shot, the music, the script, felt off and too much about them to me (and to jckfan55 and to others too, I suspect).
Again, the script for the Sam interview, where Bergman ambushes her about her relationship with her CO, is fine. But Amanda acts it in an embarrassed and flustered manner. Even the transcript on GW notes this -

BREGMAN: Really? Do you ... Professional? After everything you've been through ... You must of ... maybe if it's not too much to say ... faced death together.

CARTER: Yeah ... not unlike countless Military personnel through out the years ... look I won't deny there's not a bond between us ... Daniel and Teal'c are also like family to me. Colonel is first and foremost my superior officer. Even if there was potential for something more ... and I'm not saying that there is err ... our military positions, and the very nature of our jobs wouldn't allow for it. *swallows, kinda nods. Definitely nervous.

The script itself is great, it was the delivery which was lacking. Had she cut him down in a definitive, no nonsense manner, fine, but we got flustered, fluttery Sam, the one the writers seemed so enamored off in Season 7 and 8.

Thank you Given my schedule, it might be a while again


That is all they ever wanted, bless their little cotton socks

I should volunteer to ghost-write them a few scenes... wonder which ones I should choose? The slash should be fun

Any number of fic writers would offer to help them. Hell, any number of S/J fanfic writers could have done a better job for them too, perhaps one which wouldn't have debased their characters so much?

I'm so hoping that the writers do the right thing for Sam, she deserves it. But I'm afraid that the last we hear of this exceptional character will be her going off to make babies with a man almost old enough to be her father. All those wagging tongues around the watercoolers in Atlantis and the SGC will be able to say that they were right in suspecting how she managed to get so far in her career.
That's just sad.

FF

[prion]

I don't particularly care if Sam and Jack ever get together or if they do (but at the rate they're dragging it out, Jack's going to need Viagra on the honeymoon *cough*) but I just dont' want any of that ship stuff dragged over to SGA. Leave it for SG1 (movies, if they make anymore).

[Frostfox]

I don't particularly care if Sam and Jack ever get together or if they do (but at the rate they're dragging it out, Jack's going to need Viagra on the honeymoon *cough*) but I just dont' want any of that ship stuff dragged over to SGA. Leave it for SG1 (movies, if they make anymore).

That is a very valid viewpoint.
I don't watch Atlantis, I don't have any investment in the characters or the situation and adding Sam, who I love, but love in the context of SG1 and in her interactions with SG1, was not sufficient incitement for me to start watching. And I've felt incredibly wary of voicing any opinion on Atlantis and Sam's transfer there as I don't feel I have any right to tell Atlantis fans what they should feel about the situation. It's another case of TPTB shooting themselves in the foot though; Amanda joining was not responsible for Torri leaving but Sam is replacing Elizabeth so it's going to feel like that to Elizabeth's fans.
And Sam and Jack, twisted and mutated as their 'relationship' is, is a matter for Stargate SG1 not Stargate Atlantis.

FF

[jckfan55]

But only for people already preoccupied on shippiness (i.e., people who can't stand it will interpret it that way as an anti-reaction, and people who want it will leap on it as further proof that it's real).

For someone like me, who at this point had seen J/S ship knocked on the head way back, and seen absolute proof in this very episode that it didn't exist - i.e. Carter putting the interviewer in his place when he started asking questions around that territory, confirming outright that she and O'Neill had only a professional relationship tyvm - it didnt look remotely shippy. Janet had died from being shot in battle and Carter was worried that O'Neill was going to go the same way. I'm sure that if Janet had lived, she'd have said the same thing to her too.


She hugged Teal'c too. But he didn't get shot, so there was no need to express how worried she was about him. The pacing of the episode put them into separate scenes instead of one, but that doesn't mean anything more should be read into it.

I was thinking of the discussion about Cassie, specifically. It could have been done with the team, not just Jack.

In short, I think the scene is only shippy if you're a shipper, and only tainted by shippiness if you're an anti-shipper. For people of neither persuasion, its just a scene in which two close professional colleagues comfort each other over the loss of another close professional colleague, and one acknowledges her fear that the other nearly died too.

I see your point, and I admit I may be a bit hypersensitive to it at times,and certainly to an extent those of us who come here, are sort of *looking* for examples to vent about. Still, I have to agree with FF--on the one had a firm answer "just as countless military personnel" but then flustered.
Maybe it's the writers trying to have it both ways that bugs me. :s

[ses110]

I'm a big Sam/Jack Fan and would love to see a resoultion. I agree 100% the resolution should be shown in the SG-1 Movies and not Atlantis. SGA Fans should not have to see it.I also though SG-1 characters should not have been on SGA and vice versa. I also think TPTB should have tried to find out if Amanda was interested in being on Atlantis long term before even bringing her onboard. Now you have more cast changes and you lost Torri.

[Frostfox]

I see your point, and I admit I may be a bit hypersensitive to it at times,and certainly to an extent those of us who come here, are sort of *looking* for examples to vent about. Still, I have to agree with FF--on the one had a firm answer "just as countless military personnel" but then flustered.
Maybe it's the writers trying to have it both ways that bugs me. :s

I think we've all become hypersensitive. Do you think, as I do, that if the whole debacle had been better written, we might not object so much?

I'm a big Sam/Jack Fan and would love to see a resoultion. I agree 100% the resolution should be shown in the SG-1 Movies and not Atlantis. SGA Fans should not have to see it.I also though SG-1 characters should not have been on SGA and vice versa. I also think TPTB should have tried to find out if Amanda was interested in being on Atlantis long term before even bringing her onboard. Now you have more cast changes and you lost Torri.

Atlantis can stand on it's own two feet, it doesn't need SG1 to be successful, and now, as you said, they have lost Torri and Amanda is also moving on, it looks like a right pickle. Three different leaders in two years is bizarre.
I can't blame either actress for wanting to strike out, Amanda has a whole new show to focus on and after the way Torri was dismissed, she has every right to look elsewhere.

FF

[Jace021903]

I was thinking of the discussion about Cassie, specifically. It could have been done with the team, not just Jack.



I see your point, and I admit I may be a bit hypersensitive to it at times,and certainly to an extent those of us who come here, are sort of *looking* for examples to vent about. Still, I have to agree with FF--on the one had a firm answer "just as countless military personnel" but then flustered.
Maybe it's the writers trying to have it both ways that bugs me. :s

Bold mine.

What bugs me is that we are still having this tease and wink kind of writing (after how many years) that turned me off during SG-1. Oh, who could it be?
Is it Jack? Maybe but we aren't really saying. We'll string them along some more.

Come on. It was old after season 7 and 8 and 9 and 10.

At this point, SG-1 is over and there are no team dynamics to screw up anymore which is the main reason I disliked the emphasis on ship anyway especially in episodes where it didn't make any sense and took anyway from the story "insert shippy music and mood lighting here" Plus the fact that Sam looked silly on a number of occasions and I really like Sam.

So, if Joe wants people to know they are together than fine. Write it that way. All the wishy washy stuff is bad writing because it just leads to....more hints and winks that have dragged over to Atlantis.

[ses110]

Could not agree more. Time to end this dance. It makes all the characters look bad. It should not be treated like a national secret. You have RDA appearing in Continuum, IMO it's the perfect time to resolve the relationship. I used to be a big Shipper and after all the years of watching TPTB of all my shows botch the Ship, I'm really starting to loose my interest.

[VSS]

Could not agree more. Time to end this dance. It makes all the characters look bad. It should not be treated like a national secret. You have RDA appearing in Continuum, IMO it's the perfect time to resolve the relationship. I used to be a big Shipper and after all the years of watching TPTB of all my shows botch the Ship, I'm really starting to loose my interest.

Sadly, that is where i find myself, as well. But I don't think there will be anything forthcoming in the movie, JM has already hinted as such. Although his answers often leave wiggle room- we'll see. It is really a shame considering the effort that went into starting it up in the first place, you'd think they'd have a little more pride in their own work.

[ses110]

Yep. It was TPTB and Actors who created the shippy scenes and episodes and not the Shippers. It was not like the Shippers were making things up and seeing things that were not there. TPTB could have keep Sam/Jack as friends just like they did with Sam/Daniel and Sam/Teal. I always thought SG-1 was a great show with or without the Sam/Jack Ship

[Frostfox]

Sadly, that is where i find myself, as well. But I don't think there will be anything forthcoming in the movie, JM has already hinted as such. Although his answers often leave wiggle room- we'll see. It is really a shame considering the effort that went into starting it up in the first place, you'd think they'd have a little more pride in their own work.

Well, seeing as I fervently hope that they don't raise the spectre of S/J in the films, I won't argue with you.
But SG1 is over now, they should have resolved the issue one way or another before RDA left. Two seasons of SG1 and one of Atlantis, by the time the film comes out, three years is a long time. S/J is old, old news by now, some new fans from seasons 9 & 10 have no idea about it, I bet that holds true for Atlantis fans too.

FF

[maxbo]

Yep. It was TPTB and Actors who created the shippy scenes and episodes and not the Shippers. It was not like the Shippers were making things up and seeing things that were not there. TPTB could have keep Sam/Jack as friends just like they did with Sam/Daniel and Sam/Teal. I always thought SG-1 was a great show with or without the Sam/Jack Ship

IMO, the characters, the shippers and the non-shippers would have been better off if TPTB had not canonized Sam/Jack. If they had just maintained the early seasons' strong friendships - then shippers could have still seen ship, but non-shippers like me probably wouldn't have this lasting displeasure about how the team suffered for ship.