Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[luthienberen]

Well, I have very, um, unorthodox ideas about the US military. Especially in fiction. So, if they had gone that route, it wouldn't have affected my ability to suspend disbelief. And, I don't think I would have felt as switched around midway. Would I have liked the couple? No. But, I would have known from the start what I was getting into, and wouldn't have had this idea of the feel of the relationships, only to have it change midway. Plus, there's the whole dangling carrot issue again.

I wouldn't have been able. Different strokes for different folks. Of course, I still wouldn't like the couple as I can not see them having anything in common apart from work - not the best way to find a long lasting relationship, espcially one that is 'meant to be'. Leave 'meant to be' to writers who can pull it off, for example, Tolkien.

[luthienberen]

Whew, still catching up on posts.


Regarding Window of Opportunity, I enjoy the episode and I get through the kissing scene by not thinking about it too much. 'Cause if I do, I get a little creeped out by Jack's behavior--especially the leer at the end.

If Jack wanted to show that he cared about Sam, why didn't he get her alone and, you know, talk to her instead of grabbing her in front of God and the general. OK, I know why; the writers had a little male fantasy going on about the hero grabbing the girl and she just melts to be manhandled by the big, strong man. Maybe some females have that fantasy too, but not me.

I can't see myself appreciating that happening to me in front of my boss at my place of work and I've been married for 15 years. Jack and Sam haven't so much as dated. Disrespectful. I wish we would have seen a few more seconds of the loop where Sam slaps his face and tells him never to embarrass her again.

See, I think about it too much.

As much as I love Jack if he had kissed me in the same manner as he did Carter, I would have - ere dying of embarrsment - hit him. Now, I wouldn't mind him kissing me senseless in private somewhere on the base ... but, in front of my CO? A whole lot of other people? Thanks but no thanks. Also, I would perfer him telling me why he would want to kiss me. After all, it could be a big joke! All this persuming I remembred naturally.

I get through by erasing that scene and replacing it with my pairing of choice.

Of course, some people think it is very romantic and that's fine. We're all different, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if Martouf or Pete had kissed Sam instead--I'm envisioning lots posts about how disrespectful that would be to Sam. Or if Jack instead of Pete bought Sam a house??? Would it be the most romantic thing ever or "how dare he presume to know what she wants?"

I can hear the screams, howls and violent protests already. I adored Narim, Martouf and Pete, but unfortuantely they were all plot devices furthering the 'ship that was meant to be across all time and space'.

Jack buying a house for Carter and him would have been perfect, but Pete? Forget that he got Carter exactly what she wished, realising that her timetable left her little to zero time for house shopping. He got her what she wanted and what did he get in return? His heart ripped out.

And we're back to "meant to be" again. It's fine for the characters to do anything as long as they are meant to be. Sloppy characterization for a laugh. Naughty writers.

'Meant to be' is fine as long as they show us why it was meant to be. Why these two? What interests do they share apart from that big revolving circle? 'Cause I tell ya, if that is the only thing they have in common it is not 'meant to be' but rather, like you said, sloppy writing of the sort: oooo, we have a man (who is the CO) and a woman on the same team, so NATURALLY they have to be together!

How about morals? Goals in life? From what we can see Jack and Carter share very little that is similar and seem to lack a true understanding of the other's good and bad, and what is more, it appears they don't wish to udnerstand the other perosn beyond work.

Characterisation has been assiassanted in favour of ship as have surrounding characters.

[JessM]

I'm with Amanda on this one.

I'm not against the relationship on general principal,(well, apart from it's illigal, immoral and shows two decorated officers in a bad way and it shrieks of Elektra complex) but it's poorly written and lazily written - the old 'meant to be' soap opera cr*p without giving them a real connection and a raison d'être.

FF

I am as well. It's a shame that TPTB didn't apparently agree with her, isn't it. I want to see Stargate, not Stardate (which is what I fear might happen in S10).

[JessM]

Whew, still catching up on posts.


Regarding Window of Opportunity, I enjoy the episode and I get through the kissing scene by not thinking about it too much. 'Cause if I do, I get a little creeped out by Jack's behavior--especially the leer at the end.

If Jack wanted to show that he cared about Sam, why didn't he get her alone and, you know, talk to her instead of grabbing her in front of God and the general. OK, I know why; the writers had a little male fantasy going on about the hero grabbing the girl and she just melts to be manhandled by the big, strong man. Maybe some females have that fantasy too, but not me.

I can't see myself appreciating that happening to me in front of my boss at my place of work and I've been married for 15 years. Jack and Sam haven't so much as dated. Disrespectful. I wish we would have seen a few more seconds of the loop where Sam slaps his face and tells him never to embarrass her again.

See, I think about it too much.

Of course, some people think it is very romantic and that's fine. We're all different, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if Martouf or Pete had kissed Sam instead--I'm envisioning lots posts about how disrespectful that would be to Sam. Or if Jack instead of Pete bought Sam a house??? Would it be the most romantic thing ever or "how dare he presume to know what she wants?"

And we're back to "meant to be" again. It's fine for the characters to do anything as long as they are meant to be. Sloppy characterization for a laugh. Naughty writers.

Agree with you on all points. I sometimes wonder what happened after that, and like to think that Sam might have slapped him or had words with him for doing that.

And, I agree... I think I could see people reacting much like that if it had been Martouf or Pete. What if it had been Daniel? I bet there would be a lot of posts expressing disgust at the onscreen "incest."

Getting back to Martouf and Pete, I wonder what the reaction was when they saw Sam and Narim kissing? Poor Narim, another casualty of the "meant to be" ship...

[JessM]

As much as I love Jack if he had kissed me in the same manner as he did Carter, I would have - ere dying of embarrsment - hit him. Now, I wouldn't mind him kissing me senseless in private somewhere on the base ... but, in front of my CO? A whole lot of other people? Thanks but no thanks. Also, I would perfer him telling me why he would want to kiss me. After all, it could be a big joke! All this persuming I remembred naturally.

I would have been the same way - and if I didn't hit him, I'd give him a good slap.

Jack buying a house for Carter and him would have been perfect, but Pete? Forget that he got Carter exactly what she wished, realising that her timetable left her little to zero time for house shopping. He got her what she wanted and what did he get in return? His heart ripped out.

I was never a huge fan of Pete, but I really felt sorry for him in that episode. And another thing that I don't understand is what was going on with Jacob there. In Grace he'd told Sam (or at least her perception of him...) that she should move on. Then in this episode of As The Stargate Turns (aka Threads), he doesn't seem to approve of Pete very much, and he actually tells Sam not to worry about regulations - like he's condoning the "ship that is meant to be." I found that odd because she should have worried about regulations - it's still illegal. I almost chalked it up to Jacob dying and being delirious or something, but I doubt that's what tptb were going for.

One thing I have to sort of laugh about is that when that episode was first broadcast, a lot of people thought that Jacob's last words to Sam were, "He loves you," meaning Jack. I watched that episode for as many times as I could stomach (and that scene does make me tear up because I miss Jacob), and I always heard it as "I love you." The closed captioning on my tv said the same thing.

'Meant to be' is fine as long as they show us why it was meant to be. Why these two? What interests do they share apart from that big revolving circle? 'Cause I tell ya, if that is the only thing they have in common it is not 'meant to be' but rather, like you said, sloppy writing of the sort: oooo, we have a man (who is the CO) and a woman on the same team, so NATURALLY they have to be together!

How about morals? Goals in life? From what we can see Jack and Carter share very little that is similar and seem to lack a true understanding of the other's good and bad, and what is more, it appears they don't wish to udnerstand the other perosn beyond work.

Characterisation has been assiassanted in favour of ship as have surrounding characters.

I agree with you there. I really can't see any reasons why they were meant to be. And if it was just that we have a man and a woman on the team, then why not have her be with Teal'c or Daniel? I once heard somewhere that a lot of people find it romantic where the girl on the show falls for the lead guy. It doesn't go beyond that generality, though. That's all well and good, but you have to actually take a look at both characters and see whether anything between them would actually work... their character traits, goals in life. etc., like you said. If people think that way, then that's fine, but I don't think they should be together just for the sake of the girl being with the lead guy.

[Frostfox]

Regarding the idea of Sam the civilian scientist on the team, I'm rather fond of Sam the Soldier, I'm glad she gets to kick ass as well as being the technical skills. It broke a lot of the moulds of how a woman in an ensemble show should be, I just wish they hadn't fallen for the obvious 'luv interest' angle and ruined it.
I'd have had much more interest if they had done it 'for real' and dealt with the implications, the Courts Marshal, the repercussions, the reality of what two officers would go for if they did the dirty. But again, that wouldn't have been suitable for Stargate, much as I love it, it really does gloss over the deeper emotional fallout of the traumas these people go through. The giant emotional re-set button returns them all to zero at the end of each episode. But it would certainly have been more interesting to watch than stunted silences and soppy music, a bit more meat than the sickly candy floss we get given.

FF

[Easter Lily]

Carmen said in an interview that he didn't think Jack was suitable for Sam either, he would have prefered her to have been after Daniel! Not that the actors have much say in what their characters do but a fun factlet.

FF

Good on ya, Carmen... Goes to show... Fathers do know best

[Easter Lily]

(But then that could be because I can never quite believe Sam to be a real person anyway. As a scientist myself I know there is no way one person can know so much about so many different subject areas. Hmmmm.....green eyed monster anyone?!)

That has always been my biggest problem with the character. She was so obviously set up as a kind of obligatory female equal opportunity foil which didn't really interest me. I have a lot of respect for Amanda though... having to plough through all that technical gobbledegook... but as a woman, I'm not sure I found Sam Carter all that interesting.
I'm all for having more female characters on the show but I think, being female myself, I like to see females that are multidimensional and believable. Still I don't believe Carter was introduced as a potential romantic interest but I think it did become a handy plot device to insert where necessary. It's interesting to read comments by the actors about the whole "ship" thing and it goes some way in explaining the lack of enthusiasm on RDA's part (except as a comedic device)... It always looked to me that he had just swallowed a tub of sour yoghurt every time he had to emote in some "ship" related moment.

[JessM]

Good on ya, Carmen... Goes to show... Fathers do know best

Heehee. I believe there's an interview with him in the latest Stargate magazine issue - and he basically repeats it there (or so a friend told me - haven't got my copy yet).

[Jace021903]

Regarding the idea of Sam the civilian scientist on the team, I'm rather fond of Sam the Soldier, I'm glad she gets to kick ass as well as being the technical skills. It broke a lot of the moulds of how a woman in an ensemble show should be, I just wish they hadn't fallen for the obvious 'luv interest' angle and ruined it.
I'd have had much more interest if they had done it 'for real' and dealt with the implications, the Courts Marshal, the repercussions, the reality of what two officers would go for if they did the dirty. But again, that wouldn't have been suitable for Stargate, much as I love it, it really does gloss over the deeper emotional fallout of the traumas these people go through. The giant emotional re-set button returns them all to zero at the end of each episode. But it would certainly have been more interesting to watch than stunted silences and soppy music, a bit more meat than the sickly candy floss we get given.

FF

I love Soldier Sam, Shippy Sam, not so much.

[Dani347]

Well, I didn't mean I particularly wanted Sam to be non military (although, I don't think being a soldier is only way she could be written to break the mold or to kick ass). I just meant it as another problem with the ship, to start one up where there's this big obstacle that you can't get past. Why start up something that would never be resolved? Because I think they weren't going to resolve it by Sam or Jack saying enough is enough, it's not going to happen. Since they wanted this ship, they weren't going to end it. But, the regs were the big brick wall that wouldn't let them get together either. It's like they started a story that by definition had to be dragged out, hinted at, bumped up against, over and over and over with no pay off for the shippers (I'm assuming, since I wouldn't be fond of how the storyline was going if I was one) and just making the anti shippers have to suffer through it. It just seems it would have made much more sense, if they were so bent on shipping "the girl" they wouldn't do it with the one guy who they couldn't actually make anything happen. Unless they actually had them break the rules and face the consequences. An interesting story, maybe, but again, they weren't going to go there.

[luthienberen]

That has always been my biggest problem with the character. She was so obviously set up as a kind of obligatory female equal opportunity foil which didn't really interest me. I have a lot of respect for Amanda though... having to plough through all that technical gobbledegook... but as a woman, I'm not sure I found Sam Carter all that interesting.
I'm all for having more female characters on the show but I think, being female myself, I like to see females that are multidimensional and believable. Still I don't believe Carter was introduced as a potential romantic interest but I think it did become a handy plot device to insert where necessary. It's interesting to read comments by the actors about the whole "ship" thing and it goes some way in explaining the lack of enthusiasm on RDA's part (except as a comedic device)... It always looked to me that he had just swallowed a tub of sour yoghurt every time he had to emote in some "ship" related moment.

I agree with both you and DrScarey. Carter always appeared as a one dimensional character who was enevr very interesting. She had a moment in 'Singularity' but since then nothing. To me she always came off as the obligatory female, which only annoyned me, not endered me to her character, especially how she was protrayed.

But I did feel sorry for AT reduced to playing 'the girl' simply to fulfil the desires of TPTB and some fans instead of promoting a good image of women in the military.

Even more sorry for RDA who, like you remarked, seemed to have eaten something sour.

[luthienberen]

Well, I didn't mean I particularly wanted Sam to be non military (although, I don't think being a soldier is only way she could be written to break the mold or to kick ass). I just meant it as another problem with the ship, to start one up where there's this big obstacle that you can't get past. Why start up something that would never be resolved? Because I think they weren't going to resolve it by Sam or Jack saying enough is enough, it's not going to happen. Since they wanted this ship, they weren't going to end it. But, the regs were the big brick wall that wouldn't let them get together either. It's like they started a story that by definition had to be dragged out, hinted at, bumped up against, over and over and over with no pay off for the shippers (I'm assuming, since I wouldn't be fond of how the storyline was going if I was one) and just making the anti shippers have to suffer through it. It just seems it would have made much more sense, if they were so bent on shipping "the girl" they wouldn't do it with the one guy who they couldn't actually make anything happen. Unless they actually had them break the rules and face the consequences. An interesting story, maybe, but again, they weren't going to go there.

I think that once started TPTB their 'glorious' ship they realised they had something good, and if resolved they might just lose the fans who liked the ship. So, by dangling the carrot they ensured continued viewing by those who wished it to happen. On the way angering those of us who are totally against the ridiculous pairing. Also, annoying the pro fans through no resolution.

It doesn't do anything for either character and also doesn't give the USAF much of an image, considering whatever route TPB they are showing two officers (who before honoured said traiditon) disgracing their uniforms, unless they drop it altogether.

[luthienberen]

I was never a huge fan of Pete, but I really felt sorry for him in that episode. And another thing that I don't understand is what was going on with Jacob there. In Grace he'd told Sam (or at least her perception of him...) that she should move on. Then in this episode of As The Stargate Turns (aka Threads), he doesn't seem to approve of Pete very much, and he actually tells Sam not to worry about regulations - like he's condoning the "ship that is meant to be." I found that odd because she should have worried about regulations - it's still illegal. I almost chalked it up to Jacob dying and being delirious or something, but I doubt that's what tptb were going for.

Oh, no, TPTB were aiming to further ship by getting the fatherly stamp of approval on its slimy surface. Which made it completely out of character for Jacob to say or approve anything like that. If anything he would have slapped his daughter and told her to get over it and start seeing sense.

One thing I have to sort of laugh about is that when that episode was first broadcast, a lot of people thought that Jacob's last words to Sam were, "He loves you," meaning Jack. I watched that episode for as many times as I could stomach (and that scene does make me tear up because I miss Jacob), and I always heard it as "I love you." The closed captioning on my tv said the same thing.

The pro fans wish!

I agree with you there. I really can't see any reasons why they were meant to be. And if it was just that we have a man and a woman on the team, then why not have her be with Teal'c or Daniel? I once heard somewhere that a lot of people find it romantic where the girl on the show falls for the lead guy. It doesn't go beyond that generality, though. That's all well and good, but you have to actually take a look at both characters and see whether anything between them would actually work... their character traits, goals in life. etc., like you said. If people think that way, then that's fine, but I don't think they should be together just for the sake of the girl being with the lead guy.

Agree. Why not with Daniel or Teal'c if they are simply using the girl and man excuse? But then, they are using the 'girl must end up with lead man' ploy, no matter their situation. Actually, because the situation. Terrible.

Let's hope they don't resolve ship.

[Easter Lily]

I do wish TPTB had taken some story and emotional risks with the Sam and Jack angle as suggested by people here, then, at least, everyone would have been put through the wringer for some reason.
But they were so half-hearted about it. Yet another reason why the whole debacle didn't do anything for me was the lack of emotional connection between the characters. I'm sure Jack and Daniel did a lot more conversing on that level than Sam and Jack ever did. The show could go one or two seasons without any reference to the relationship and then all of sudden... voila... they're making eyes at one another again.

When a relationship arc is introduced, I expect it to be developed. I don't care if the characters don't ever consummate the relationship but they need to be seen to be connecting emotionally... call it UST or by any other name... whatever... But I need to know why these two people gravitate towards one another.