Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Erised]

umm... Sam/Jack wasn't forgotten in season 9 or, apparently, 10..
http://www.gateworld.net/blogs/moria...milation.shtml

[Dani347]

Well, except for the stupid "not exactly" comment, and Ripple Effect AKA Sam Space Bunny Across the Multiverse, season 9 was extremely ship free, and helped Sam to be a character I didn't just tolerate, but like. But, season 10 will bring it all back. And, I have a vicious allergy to this ship, so even if it's only one scene that registers the least bit shippy between them, I'll hate it. HATE IT

[Frostfox]

Well, except for the stupid "not exactly" comment, and Ripple Effect AKA Sam Space Bunny Across the Multiverse, season 9 was extremely ship free, and helped Sam to be a character I didn't just tolerate, but like. But, season 10 will bring it all back. And, I have a vicious allergy to this ship, so even if it's only one scene that registers the least bit shippy between them, I'll hate it. HATE IT

I think what will drive me bats is if they only use RDA for shipping in season 10 - it's as good as rubbing Amanda's nose in it - 'We have no use at all for your character unless she's half of a relationship with the boss.' Which is just pathetic and outdated and lazy writing. Sam and Amanda are better than that.

FF

[Luz]

Little question here, 'cause i've been trying to look into it, but the info is so unspecified.
Is RDA coming back for only one episode or for more (ala DD on TXF)?.
'Cause i really don't see the need to worry about him coming back anyway, i mean from my POV they had him for like what?, eight years?, and that ship was a complete disaster, zero UST, not a bit of chemistry, nothing, and all there was to said ship were a bit of moments all oddly thrown in between of long periods ignoring the ship.
tptb are incapable of writing themselves out of this failure of a ship, they've already screwed it up, and if they're really bringing RDA back to resolve this ship (which i'm doubting right now), i think all they're going to do is crap it even more than they already have.
I'm thinking TXF's type of resolution, a huge hairy ball of s***, i only hope if they're really going to solve it, they do screw it, whatever, get that idiotic attempt at a romantic relationship out of the way (poor Carter, how humilliating, bacause we all know they'll manage to make a fool out of her, somehow, they always manage), and then that ship will be ignored, and never talked about forever more.
I mean, that's what they used to do anyway, throw an anvil, and then forget about it for long periods of time.
Although, it would be so great if tptb did things right for once, and brought RDA and there was no mention of ship. *LOL* some people would have a fit, but at least the show wouldn't be drawn back into the domains of crapland once again. If it's a matter of sacrificing a ship for the show, i'm all for it, even as a sparky shipper, i've always mantained that if i have to give up the ship for the shows integrity then so be it. If a ship ruins a show then it must be put to death.

[Dani347]

Little question here, 'cause i've been trying to look into it, but the info is so unspecified.
Is RDA coming back for only one episode or for more (ala DD on TXF)?.
'Cause i really don't see the need to worry about him coming back anyway, i mean from my POV they had him for like what?, eight years?, and that ship was a complete disaster, zero UST, not a bit of chemistry, nothing, and all there was to said ship were a bit of moments all oddly thrown in between of long periods ignoring the ship.
tptb are incapable of writing themselves out of this failure of a ship, they've already screwed it up, and if they're really bringing RDA back to resolve this ship (which i'm doubting right now), i think all they're going to do is crap it even more than they already have.

I believe it's 5 episodes that he's in. And, I agree that they're going to crap it up if they start it again. But, the problem with that is having to watch it. And, since it was bad watching it before, if it gets worse, it'll be even more painful to watch.

Although, it would be so great if tptb did things right for once, and brought RDA and there was no mention of ship. *LOL* some people would have a fit, but at least the show wouldn't be drawn back into the domains of crapland once again.

Well, how to put this diplomatically? I really don't care that some people won't like it if they don't show any ship. Just like I'm sure the reverse is true. Like I've said before, watching tv is a selfish pasttime. IMO, ship sanctioned by tptb is horrible, and I don't want it on my tv, and other people that do want it have no bearing on what I want. Not that I expect to get my way, but my feelings don't change.

[Luz]

I believe it's 5 episodes that he's in. And, I agree that they're going to crap it up if they start it again. But, the problem with that is having to watch it. And, since it was bad watching it before, if it gets worse, it'll be even more painful to watch.

To me it helps a little that S/J doesn't make me violently ill, i've been there, there is this ship which i cannot even look at shippy signatures because it makes me wanna vomit, so i get you.
With S/J i find it easy to just ignore it (mostly because it seems tptb like to ignore it most of the time too, lol). It's a bit painful most of all seeing Carter humilliating herself for a guy who most of the time acts like she doesn't exist, it's embarrassing.
And you're right even if we try to act all civilized, like we care, the truth is most of the time all fans are thinking of the satisfaction of our own desires, and to hell with everything else. Funny thing is that while the shippers want RST at the cost of the show, at the same times they're wondering why are all of us against them?, why can't we understand all the grief they've been through, lol. And when do they think about the ones that aren't shippers?.

[Frostfox]

What annoyed me was how a man who could make this scene so natural, human and warm -

Could make this scene, and others with AT, so bloody difficult for the poor actress -

Give the poor actress a break, she's acting against a brick wall.

And I refuse to believe that RDA is a bad actor, he can be so very good (in fact I think critics often underestimate how good he is).

FF

[Dani347]

RDA is a good actor. I really didn't pay attention to the scene with Kerry, because it was so pointless. Plus, I felt sorry for the actress, whose role was basically the "other woman" who would so nobly tell Jack to go for it. But, I've seen him play good emotional, connective scenes with others. He's done it with Daniel. He's done it with Teal'c. Pair him up with a kid (Reetu Charlie, Merrin) and he's golden. But, put him with Sam in a shippy sense, and it just gets torn to pieces. The sad thing is, when it wasn't shippy, he and Sam were good together. I honestly enjoy the Earth scenes of Secrets almost (hey, I'm biased!) as much as the ones on Abydos. But, they hardly let any other kind of relationship between them have a chance to get developed. With all the brouhaha about the command issue (and not trying to bring that over here) it makes me say again that I wished there had been scenes with Jack mentoring Sam to be in command at some point. Just a natural thing. Each person on the team had a way to relate to the other person that was unique and different. Nobody else was military. Teal'c was a warrior and a soldier for Apophis, but it wasn't the same as having been part of the Earth military. But, they never let that develop. It was just like it was enough to just know it, without really seeing how it made them relate to each other differently than they would with Daniel or Teal'c, just like Sam and Daniel relate to each other differently than they would to anyone else on the team by virtue of being scientists. Instead, they had to go the shippy route. That had to be the special connection, and it just didn't work.

What's really sad is they did give the brunt of the work to AT. I guess they felt if she played it really hard people would focus on her instead of RDA's lack of playing it. Or maybe they thought that the scene in D&C was enough. "Hey, why don't you people buy the ship, or say that it makes Sam look bad? Jack said he cared about her! Way back in season 4! That's enough!"

And, I know some people have felt that Sam hasn't had much to do, and she hasn't had a specific story, but I think she's been shown to be a competant, funny, caring person. She's had a chance to be a three dimensional Samantha Carter (with the exception of Ripple Effect). Pair her up with Jack, and not only will it be like her purpose is to be half of a pair, but also that to show her as three dimensional, they have to show her in a relationship. When, like I said, i think they've been doing a good job of that this past season with no relationship.

[DEM]

Give the poor actress a break, she's acting against a brick wall.

Ugh! Yes! Aside from the wacky randomness of the S/J anvils over the years, it was just that very thing that made me insane. Relatedly, RDA's O'Neill had become so 'dumb' and mean by S7-8 that I found it hard to believe that Carter would be at all interested in him. It made Carter look bad. Hated it.

I really wish I understood RDA's motivation for acting that way.

[Luz]

I really wish I understood RDA's motivation for acting that way.

You mean O'neil's motives, right?, imo, he acted like he didn't give a rat's ass about her feelings. There she was acting like a silly teenager on a crush, and all he ever did was make dumb jokes, and blow her off. The way it was played it looked like Carter was desperate, and O'neil used humor to repel her unwanted advances, trying to let her down not so nicely?.

[Dani347]

Ugh! Yes! Aside from the wacky randomness of the S/J anvils over the years, it was just that very thing that made me insane. Relatedly, RDA's O'Neill had become so 'dumb' and mean by S7-8 that I found it hard to believe that Carter would be at all interested in him. It made Carter look bad. Hated it.

That's true. I've never been a fan, but I would think the ship would have had much more validity in the early seasons when Jack acted like he had brains. Take Prisoners, another example of the team split up, but on a smaller scale. Jack may not have been able to fully understand the technical aspects of what Linnea and Sam were discussing (but, then, most likely neither would Daniel or Teal'c) but he wasn't an idiot. But, seasons 7-8 Jack became just painfully dumb.

But, I think the worst example was Moebius. I'm guessing those AU's were supposed to make us think that they belong together because even across time and dimensions they find a way (cue cheesy violins). But, why would Sam want the Jack of that universe who had none of the good qualities of the early seasons Jack, or even whatever fleeting qualities might still have lingered in the Jack that was still around at the end? I still enjoy the first part of it, because I thought both AU's of Sam and Daniel were just adorable (hmm, sounds patronizing, but it's true). And, that Sam certainly deserved someone better than the Jack of that world. And, I was supposed to believe that she'd want him? Even worse, it just made me think that I was supposed to view her as a big old loser who of course would want big cool guy Jack, and what a miracle that he would want her. Well, I'm sure that this version of Sam was supposed to be a loser even without that. I mean, the poor woman wore glasses! And, while it's somewhat acceptable for a man to wear them and not be quite as much a loser, for a woman, it's the biggest sign. But, to me, she didn't get any prize with that Jack.

[DEM]

You mean O'neil's motives, right?

No, I meant RDA's motivation. RDA is a better actor than what he demonstrated in many (most?) of the ship eps. It's hard to explain, but often I didn't feel like RDA was trying to get across that O'Neill was uncomfortable; it was more like RDA was Just.Not.There. I'm sure others, like you, feel O'Neill's diffidence (or whatever it was supposed to be) was purposeful on RDA's part... but my problem with that interpretation is that such would reflect badly on Carter, and I don't think RDA was trying to do that. I like to believe he'd have more respect for AT than that.

And Dani, I'm totally with you on Moebius. The first part was fantastic and then... bleh.

[Luz]

No, I meant RDA's motivation.

O.K then, maybe it's just that RDA doesn't go for S/J, he does look kind off bored on most of those S/J anvils, lol.

[Dani347]

So, bringing this up again, not because of any new spoilers, but because Upgrades was on. A cool episode, with lots of nice character bits, but of course it leads to the horrid D&C. If nothing else (and there are a lot of else's) I would find this ship repugnant because of the implication that Jack would want to stay (um, wasn't that out of his hands anyway?) only because he wuvs Sam. That if Daniel or Teal'c or heck, Hammond or a whole bunch of people that Jack could be seen as close to were there with him, the feelings wouldn't be the same. That's what's implied. I refuse to believe it. And, D&C forgets that Daniel and Teal'c also refused to leave (and they could have).

Also, Gemini has the exact same sick way of showing ship. The RC showing Sam what Fifth did, and showing her blasting Daniel away then hesitating when Jack comes. And, regardless that it was the RC and not Sam, I think what was meant to be conveyed was just how strong her feelings for Jack are, and that this is what makes Sam understand the RC and sympathize, because Fifth made RC kill a virtual Jacky-Wacky. And, that was just sooo traumatizing. Daniel? Blast the geek! And, I'm supposed to have warm fuzzies about this?

[DEM]

You know what? I hate Divide & Conquer more than is warranted, strictly speaking, simply because of its retcon of Upgrades -- an ep upon whose altar I worship. Moreover, if I listen to the commentary of D&C wherein the writer or director pats himself on the back for oh-so-cleverly tainting the greatness of Upgrades, I loathe D&C with the passion of 1000 white-hot suns.

When it comes to that Gemini moment, I just roll my eyes and mentally move on.

Entity is another ep that pisses me off like that. All that possessed-Carter greatness and then...
The Tinkly Piano Music Of Death. vomit.