Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[luthienberen]

Well, I just have to say, imo, I don't see a jerk when I see Daniel, I see many instances of caring and concern from him. He still has most of the characteristics I fell in love with in the early seasons. I'd make a detailed list of why I see it that way, but again, this isn't the thread for that. I just feel like there's a whole lot I disagree with, and I can't help wanting to say why I disagree (not to change anyone's minds, or say that your opinion isn't valid) but I don't think I should here.

Anyway, back to ship. I don't think Jack dislikes Sam. I don't think he holds her in contempt. I saw some nice moments where he seemed to have the attitude of a proud commander. Prisoners, talking to Linnea, was one. To me, the original team was a family, and there wasn't any strong feelings of animosity between any of them. I just don't get the feeling that Jack likes Sam that way. I see no romantic feelings towards her. Which is fine. I wish they would have kept the CO/2IC, mentor/mentee relationship that I thought was a good one.

I didn't think D as a jerk until the first ep of S9 then his behaviour convinced me. During Seasons 7-8 there were many times where I went "no, Daniel wouldn't do that, MS maybe, but not Daniel." I understand you want to explain why you feel differently, but while I can probably see your point (my friend is an advid Daniel lover) I doubt you'll say anything different from what my friend and others have told me before. I'll drop over though if you want to tell me why you feel Daniel is still the old Daniel. Otherwise, I'm glad to know I'm not alone if thinking D has changed for the wrose - thank goodness for gateworld!

Ship: I NEVER saw the team as a 'family', just a band of soldiers and a civilian with J&D, J&T and D&C as friends. J and C were simply collegues with J harbouring nothing towards her beyond "She is a soldier in my command who happens to be a scientist. She obeys me that is it." Yes, J may have once or twice used 'Sam' as her name, but when he did those times felt unrealistic to me or simply extensions of 'we don't leave anyone behind'.

I couldn't see them as a family: how could they be when it was obvious two members certainly never spent time together outside work, and remained within rank?

And that was okay. I liked it that way and thought it the most realistic to real military (IMO). J and C were soldiers who had to form a working bond so that they could function on the field, coupled with J's 'never leave a man behind' his feelings were jsut that - a fellow warrior.

I can see no proof of J liking C in any episode. From the first in COTG it was evident to me that he disliked her - and rightly so. She disrespected rank (IMO).

So, to me, ship broke up a team who while not a family were a working unit who depended on each other to survive. Some were friends. And ship destroyed these different relationships dead.

[Jace021903]

(because I can dig into a subject and beat a dead horse like nobody's business)

We like that about you, Dani.

[luthienberen]

Well, I'd speculate that they were trying to play it that way, but I don't think the directors would let them do things that didn't fit with what they were going for. So, maybe it's a way of dangling the carrot. Never play it fully, because then they'd have to completely acknowledge it, and I don't think they wanted to. They wanted to be able to dance right up to the line without being accused of going over. That way, they could say nothing actually happened.

Of course, there is the fact that it all comes down to interpretation. I know there are people who saw a ton of romance in their scenes. So, maybe it's just that we don't see it and they do.

Oh, I agree, it is all interpretation in the end. Beyond facts it is up to the individual viewer to decide what a specific scene meant. However, the way TPTB played ship - especially when they knew that J & C couldn't be together due to the very rules of their world that they agreed to uphold - is disgusting. It is UNFAIR to ALL sides.

Buffy (apart from Anya/Xander at the end - hated how that ended) did MUCh better on relationships and chemistry between actors and actresses (MO of course!).

[Jace021903]

I have the horrible sneaking suspicion that is one of the reasons why they kept J and Sara separate. But have you noticed how, whenever J has been paired off with any women in SG-1 bar C he has great chemistry? A 100 hundred days for example ~ Laira wasn't it? Yet the minute RDA and AT are told to do ship they couldn't do romance if it bit them on the ass? No disrepect to the actor and actrees - but the mintue they get in character and play 'romance' between J and C there is nada?

I really wish they kept J and Sara together, and left shipping to fanfiction, where the AU lives in glory JessM!

I thought RDA had wonderful chemistry with Michelle Greene and with the actresses that played Sara and Kerry. (sigh)

[luthienberen]

Would that be shipism?


I agree. It always fascinates (and saddens) me when people want to discuss their perceptions of the personalities of those who disagree with them rather than the issue at hand. Is it so they can dislike them and/or feel superior???

Human nature. Human nature at its worst. Unfortuantely.

Doesn't make any sense to me. People like or dislike things for complex reasons sometimes and for simple reasons other times. Just taking a look at this thread and the various people on it, it is easy to see that there is no one-size-fits-all type person.

For myself, I was fine with the little hints between Jack and Sam until they started messing around with Sam's professionalism and making her act in ways that made me roll my eyes at her. Simple as that. I don't hate Sam.

However, if someone does hate Sam, what's wrong with that? Nothing, just like there is nothing wrong with disliking (or liking) any of the other characters--Daniel, Mitchell, Jack, Teal'c, Vala, etc...The disdain with which people treat each other over a TV show boggles the mind sometimes.

Bold mine.

Thank you! So what if I hate Carter? Vala? Nothing is worng with that! I really wish people would remember that it is a TV show! I couldn't care less if people love Carter or any other character, but when it gets to the point where you cannot criticise said character or you MUST like/dislike this ship etc it makes me sick.

These days if you don't like so and so or S9 you are not a 'true' fan. Peh. So what about those new fans who don't like earlier seasons? How are they 'true' fans but not I who likes earlier seasons and not later ones?

Fandom is getting really bad these days. That is why protected threads such as this one are essential.

[Dani347]

I couldn't see them as a family: how could they be when it was obvious two members certainly never spent time together outside work, and remained within rank?

To me, and this is just a matter of difference of interpretation, it's not important ( I mean to me) whether or not they spend time together outside of work (especially when "work" so often consists of spending days and nights together in something more -ugh- intimate (not that way!) than a typical nine to five job). To me it was all in how they acted while on the job. Plus, just because they stayed within rank didn't mean that I didn't see real caring. I don't think they needed to call each other Jack and Sam to care about each other. To me, how they interacted off world and at the SGC was what mattered, not whether they had pizza after work. But, again, that's just my way of seeing things.

I can see no proof of J liking C in any episode. From the first in COTG it was evident to me that he disliked her - and rightly so. She disrespected rank (IMO).

Well, I don't know about "proof" but I thought he was friendly, in a nice teammate manner in Secrets (one of the few episodes that had them paired up that I still like) and in Prisoners. I didn't see him disliking her in those episodes. Also, it might have to do with me liking Sam, overall, so I don't see things the same way you do.

And, a lot has to do with how I want to see them. I don't want ship but I don't want to think of them in any pairing as just people who happen to work together. They've been through too much. I agree with one of tptb (I forget who, maybe RCC) when he said that going through the experiences that SG1 does on a regular basis would form a bond. I just happen to disagree that if there's a female, that kind of bond automatically has to be romantic between the "girl" and one of the guys (coincidentally, the leader). But, that's all a matter of interpretation.

[Dani347]

However, the way TPTB played ship - especially when they knew that J & C couldn't be together due to the very rules of their world that they agreed to uphold - is disgusting. It is UNFAIR to ALL sides.

I agree. If I was a shipper, I would feel cheated. Once they brought it to light, they had to annoy the shippers by never following through, and annoy the nonshippers by making them go through all the teasing and hints, until some non shippers felt that they should just make them go ahead and do it and just get the darn thing over with. Or, make some (me) be so adamantly against ship, that the idea of even the smallest scene implying Jack and Sam are together, even if it's never mentioned again is completely disgusting to me. I don't know if I would feel that way if they hadn't dangled that carrot for so long. And, I can't speak for shippers (or I shouldn't for anyone, really) but I think if I was a shipper, I would feel that anything they could do would be too little too late, and not worth it.

[Pagan Twylight]

I can't believe I missed what fishyone said! How can anyone beleive that Carter opened the gate?!? Have they watched the film? Or even the first episode of SG-1 or subsequent episodes? If anything it is Carter who has no reason to be on the show.

After all, she couldn't discover the secrets of the gate after two years while Daniel did it in two weeks - nor could she come up with stellar drift: a supposed 'genius', even after Daniel revealed the gate's purpose. Daniel had to hand it to her on a silver plater, apprently even though the scientists tried cold dialing.

Soooo, reason for Carter to be there? None. She is the required female, that is all. My father also cannot understand why she is there. And after her dreadful performance in the field the question ought to be: why is she on the field? Surely she is better placed in a lab where she doesn't have to think outside the box and have her nice tidy conceptions of the world challenged? Miss 'That's impossible!' would be at home - also the military do not lose the investment they made in training her as a scientist, because as one ex-soldier on another forum remarked (paraphased) they wouldn't serve under her. She is more concerned with Sir (and herself) than with the team.

I read this thread because I dislike the Jack/Sam ship in the show. However, I happen to really like Carter. I think she's smart and a good soldier, when the correct "writer" gets ahold of the the "Character". Of course she didn't "Open" the gate, and only those that have not followed the show closely would think otherwise.

However, without her, Daniel would not have opened it either. Someone had to figure out how to get it to work in the first place. That is what she did. Without her programs, the gate would still be sitting in a box somewhere. She Does deserve the credit for that, if not the actual "Opening" of it. She is an astrophysicist, not an archeologist. To say that she is not brilliant or capable because she didn't decipher the symbols to figure out what it was is unreasonable. In the movie it was other archeologists that couldn't open it, not an astrophysicist.

To say that Daniel "handed" it to her is a little off as well. The writers had to write it that way so that "Daniel" one of the leads of the show was shown to be smart and wonderful. They had to stay within the parameters the movie set up, and yet take it beyond the movie. It was a plot device, nothing more. Sometimes one character is sacrified for the episode to work. They certainly did that to Carter's character is season eight. They ruined her character in that season. Don't you know that it is Okay to sacrifice the female's character? At least, that is what the writers have shown us, if you want to believe them.

Carter has a very good reason to be on the show. The person that knows how the gate "works" has as much right to be there as the guy who "opened" it. I'd rather the show revolved around Daniel and Carter and thier abilities than Jack. He is nothing but the muscle. Anyone can do that. One soldier would be as able as another. Now, doesn't that statement sound ridiculous? Of course it is, just as putting Carter down all the time is.

I get tired of people putting the characters down. Blame the writers, not the characters. They are the ones that are writing like idiots instead of professionals. In other words, try not to forget that she is a character that the Writers have written. They have messed the character of Samantha Carter up completely since they started the heavy ship. Prior to that she was everything she should have been. As I said, tough, brilliant, and a good soldier. The ex-soldier that said he/she wouldn't serve under her probably wouldn't serve under any woman. Sounds like a prejudice to me. Carter belongs on the team for her abilities, just as Daniel belongs for his abilities.

Jack has been turned into a caricature of what he was meant to be because RDA really wanted to quit the show years ago to be with his daughter. He did not want to be there. Also, don't forget that he was an executive producer...if he had really wanted to, he probably could have stopped the ship. Don't know that for a fact, but I'd say he had input. His acting when it comes to ship with Carter is terrible, and I think it is more because of RDA's feelings that it did not belong in the military show. He always did fine with the ship with a non-military Jack and Sam. Which was fine...if they had left it AU and not dragged it into our universe. If anyone on the show has lost my respect it would have to be RDA for not standing up to TPTB and refusing to do ship. As important as he was to the show, he could have stopped it in a heartbeat.

Of course, the writers lost my respect a long time ago. Like in season four when they sacrified Martouf for ship between J/S. And they lost more of it everytime they did the same thing and killed off a well-liked character just to bring in ship, to the point that now I have no respect for any of them. It is also interesting to realize that there was a woman writer on the show at first. There has not been one for a long time now and I believe the handling of the ship on the show has been harmed from that lack.

And finally your last paragraph rant against Carter's character and place on the show is ridiculous. Notice I said the rant is ridiculous, Not you. It is quite obvious that you do not like Carter. You have, in fact, gone to great lengths to tell us so. Repeatedly. To say that Sam Carter is not a beautiful woman is to say that Amanda Tapping is not beautiful. Obviously, untrue. It is easy to see that dislike colors the opinions expressed. However, you have a right to your opinion, just as I do.

My preference is Sam/Martouf/Lantash and Sam/Daniel and that is the fanfiction that I write. It is my world to people and work as I wish, and that is exactly where ship belongs. In the fanfiction, not on the show.

I follow this thread, but rarely post on it or any other. However, I follow it because it is ANTI- Sam/Jack SHIP, not ANTI- Samantha Carter.

As I said, your opinion is your right. I have now stated mine, and I won't continue to repeat it, ad nauseam. Therefore, I have finished stating my opinion and will retire to lurkdom where I normally remain.

[Dani347]

OT: I've heard this from many sides and I never understood the difference in blaming the writers or the characters. To me, I don't see how they can be separated. Characters are what's written and what's acted. I mean, I guess if there's an episode or two where a character acts completely different from usual, with no real explanation (or just in order to fulfill a need of the plot) I can see that being a case of the writers just messing with the character, and the real character being there. Or, when you notice that it's just one writer that happens to write a character a certain way that deviates from the norm. But, if a character consistantly acts (even if they didn't before) in an unlikable way to you, and when it becomes all of the character (and this is any character, no one in particular) doesn't it ever at some point become who the character is, rather than just bad writing? Or, is that separation always there?

Anyway, remember, we may have differences of opinions on who we like, who we hate, the importance of the characters, etc, etc. But, we all share something in this thread. To various degrees and for various reasons we're all anti J/S ship.

[luthienberen]

To me, and this is just a matter of difference of interpretation, it's not important ( I mean to me) whether or not they spend time together outside of work (especially when "work" so often consists of spending days and nights together in something more -ugh- intimate (not that way!) than a typical nine to five job). To me it was all in how they acted while on the job. Plus, just because they stayed within rank didn't mean that I didn't see real caring. I don't think they needed to call each other Jack and Sam to care about each other. To me, how they interacted off world and at the SGC was what mattered, not whether they had pizza after work. But, again, that's just my way of seeing things.


Well, I don't know about "proof" but I thought he was friendly, in a nice teammate manner in Secrets (one of the few episodes that had them paired up that I still like) and in Prisoners. I didn't see him disliking her in those episodes. Also, it might have to do with me liking Sam, overall, so I don't see things the same way you do.

And, a lot has to do with how I want to see them. I don't want ship but I don't want to think of them in any pairing as just people who happen to work together. They've been through too much. I agree with one of tptb (I forget who, maybe RCC) when he said that going through the experiences that SG1 does on a regular basis would form a bond. I just happen to disagree that if there's a female, that kind of bond automatically has to be romantic between the "girl" and one of the guys (coincidentally, the leader). But, that's all a matter of interpretation.

But that is just it. It is my interpretation of how they interact. In their interactions with each other on Earth in the SGC and off world I do NOT see any like on a friendship level, whether or not they call each other by Christian names or see each other outside work. I agree that what they have been through would form strong bonds, but I do not see anything in their interactions that this goes beyond a soldier bond of trust and dependence.

In the end SG-1 strike me as a team - some who are friends - that trust each other to back the other up, rely on to come up with a solution to a problem if needs be and be there to get them out of trouble. Jack cares for Carter as a member of his team, a fellow soldier, but a friend? No. Carter has 'shown' to me that she cannot understand Jack even as half as well as Daniel so friendship to me is not possible.

And I do not see Prisoners as a form of 'like' in friendship form, only the necessity that he as leader must look after the weakest member of his team: in this case Carter as she is female.

I see only tolerance and people who can work in a team even if they do not like each personally. Jack and Carter have a strong professional relationship strengthed by what they have been through ... but friendship? No. And whenever TPTB try and convicne me otherwise it falls flat. Jack trying to persuade Carter to go with him on holiday: RDA seemed bored and there wasn't 'life' in ihs words.

Like you I see things very differnetly and this may do with the fact that I loathe Carter and wanted her dead from the very first. However, in every interaction with J I only see that of two soldiers who have been through a lot and can trust the other back them up (I'll debate that the way Carter acted in later episodes makes me believe that she is incapable soldier and incapable of being a leader of anything, let alone the flagship team - mostly result of ship). IMO the balance of evidence weighs that J doesn't like Carter and while he may not feel contempt towards her at all times I do believe there were/are occassions where he did ... and with good reason.

And I strongly believe that ship turned Carter into a character that Jack of old would NEVER wish to be associated with, let alone 'date'. TPTB thought otherwise. I cannot see why people still like Carter, considering what she has done (and what TPB have done to her), I consider her a very unlikeable character (I only liked her in Singularity and Engima, and only in Engima because I loved Narim and Schrodinger) so therefore I cannot understand how anyone can think she and J like each other. But, like you said, all interpretation.

I wish they left out ship and kept the professional relationship - I could stomach that and Carter didn't annoy me as much.

[grasshopper64]

Just wanted to jump in here, there's so many great points on this thread!

The S/J ship is something that has annoyed me, especially over the later seasons of the show. I've never seen any chemistry between Jack and Sam and the way the ship has been pushed has definitely been to the detriment of the team in general.

Personally I think shipping between any characters should be left to fanfic, as a J/D fan myself there is more than enough out there. I'm not against characters having relationships on the show but it's best done offscreen.
If you want to see relationships you can watch a soap or other TV shows that know how to write this stuff!

I think the S/J shippers seem to be the most vocal group on the show, and fair enough everyone's entitled to their opinion but it annoys me that I see so much about how Sam and Jack must be together and how they are meant for each other, oh please no.......

I like Sam and I like Jack but not together. The way the ship has been pushed has made both characters look bad, Sam like a silly teenager and Jack like he just doesn't care...
I completely agree with what was said about RDA getting the blame for S7/S8The PTB knew his schedule and they write the scripts not him, with all the shippy stuff going on hardly suprising he didn't want to be there.
I'm not going to get into the whole "Threads" thing, when I first saw that I thought they gone into some kind of soap AU

I am just hoping that with RDA's S10 eps they steer well clear of ship, in my opinion it doesn't need "resolving" and it should be left alone, but I suspect it will come up.

[Dani347]

Okay, I'm not trying to come off as saying you're wrong in seeing things the way you do. Just saying how I see them. And, I was replying to you saying that one of the reasons you don't see friendship is because they don't socialize outside work. Not that it's the only reason you don't see it that way, just it was one you mentioned specifically, and again, just for me, socializing outside work isn't a factor in how I see things.

It's also one of my reasons for not really needing to see ship in general. I know one of the arguments is that if there's no ship it means that the characters have no lives or are all about work. To me, that's what Stargate is. It's about their work lives. Maybe the occasional episode outside that arena, but for the most part, while watching the show, I'm not really thinking about whether they have someone to snuggle up with at the end of the day. I watch it for their work lives, which for me, are more than just a job. The rest, I'll take in fanfiction.

I also think we have a different interpretation of friendship. But, that's okay, too.

Seriously, I'm not trying to dismiss you.


eta: This is addressed to luthienberen

[Dani347]

how they are meant for each other, oh please no.......

Ah, the dreaded "meant to be" Actually, my hatred for this phrase really comes from a totally different board and different show, but it applies here. To me, it's not enough to say that characters are "meant to be" because I want to know why. Why are they meant to be? Again, what is there especially about Sam that Jack is supposed to like that makes her stand out more than other women he's been around? I know she's the only female on the team (which is a baaaad reason) but there are other women at the SGC and in Colorado. And, what is it about Jack that gives him an extra zing compared to Daniel or Teal'c or every other guy in the SGC? I just don't see tptb trying to answer those questions. And, some cases, I've seen shows where they didn't really answer those questions, but they showed the characters gradually growing closer and you could understand that. But, I don't see that here. At least not in anyway that implies a burgeoning (?) romantic connection, rather than a platonic one.

[luthienberen]

I read this thread because I dislike the Jack/Sam ship in the show. However, I happen to really like Carter. I think she's smart and a good soldier, when the correct "writer" gets ahold of the the "Character". Of course she didn't "Open" the gate, and only those that have not followed the show closely would think otherwise.

However, without her, Daniel would not have opened it either. Someone had to figure out how to get it to work in the first place. That is what she did. Without her programs, the gate would still be sitting in a box somewhere. She Does deserve the credit for that, if not the actual "Opening" of it. She is an astrophysicist, not an archeologist. To say that she is not brilliant or capable because she didn't decipher the symbols to figure out what it was is unreasonable. In the movie it was other archeologists that couldn't open it, not an astrophysicist.

To say that Daniel "handed" it to her is a little off as well. The writers had to write it that way so that "Daniel" one of the leads of the show was shown to be smart and wonderful. They had to stay within the parameters the movie set up, and yet take it beyond the movie. It was a plot device, nothing more. Sometimes one character is sacrified for the episode to work. They certainly did that to Carter's character is season eight. They ruined her character in that season. Don't you know that it is Okay to sacrifice the female's character? At least, that is what the writers have shown us, if you want to believe them.

Carter has a very good reason to be on the show. The person that knows how the gate "works" has as much right to be there as the guy who "opened" it. I'd rather the show revolved around Daniel and Carter and thier abilities than Jack. He is nothing but the muscle. Anyone can do that. One soldier would be as able as another. Now, doesn't that statement sound ridiculous? Of course it is, just as putting Carter down all the time is.

I get tired of people putting the characters down. Blame the writers, not the characters. They are the ones that are writing like idiots instead of professionals. In other words, try not to forget that she is a character that the Writers have written. They have messed the character of Samantha Carter up completely since they started the heavy ship. Prior to that she was everything she should have been. As I said, tough, brilliant, and a good soldier. The ex-soldier that said he/she wouldn't serve under her probably wouldn't serve under any woman. Sounds like a prejudice to me. Carter belongs on the team for her abilities, just as Daniel belongs for his abilities.

Jack has been turned into a caricature of what he was meant to be because RDA really wanted to quit the show years ago to be with his daughter. He did not want to be there. Also, don't forget that he was an executive producer...if he had really wanted to, he probably could have stopped the ship. Don't know that for a fact, but I'd say he had input. His acting when it comes to ship with Carter is terrible, and I think it is more because of RDA's feelings that it did not belong in the military show. He always did fine with the ship with a non-military Jack and Sam. Which was fine...if they had left it AU and not dragged it into our universe. If anyone on the show has lost my respect it would have to be RDA for not standing up to TPTB and refusing to do ship. As important as he was to the show, he could have stopped it in a heartbeat.

Of course, the writers lost my respect a long time ago. Like in season four when they sacrified Martouf for ship between J/S. And they lost more of it everytime they did the same thing and killed off a well-liked character just to bring in ship, to the point that now I have no respect for any of them. It is also interesting to realize that there was a woman writer on the show at first. There has not been one for a long time now and I believe the handling of the ship on the show has been harmed from that lack.

And finally your last paragraph rant against Carter's character and place on the show is ridiculous. Notice I said the rant is ridiculous, Not you. It is quite obvious that you do not like Carter. You have, in fact, gone to great lengths to tell us so. Repeatedly. To say that Sam Carter is not a beautiful woman is to say that Amanda Tapping is not beautiful. Obviously, untrue. It is easy to see that dislike colors the opinions expressed. However, you have a right to your opinion, just as I do.

My preference is Sam/Martouf/Lantash and Sam/Daniel and that is the fanfiction that I write. It is my world to people and work as I wish, and that is exactly where ship belongs. In the fanfiction, not on the show.

I follow this thread, but rarely post on it or any other. However, I follow it because it is ANTI- Sam/Jack SHIP, not ANTI- Samantha Carter.

As I said, your opinion is your right. I have now stated mine, and I won't continue to repeat it, ad nauseam. Therefore, I have finished stating my opinion and will retire to lurkdom where I normally remain.

I disagree heavily with what you said. From the first the way Carter's character was written in was done badly - and that is the fault of the writers. So, just because it is the writer's fault I am meant to forgive the character and not dislike her? I do not see where the sepearation of character and writer comes in when the character is consistently written that way.

As for my rant being ridiculous is incorrect. IMO it is NOT a rant but my explantion for why Carter does not belong on the show.

In the flim no mention is made of her (and of Teal'c yes I know that), however, Carter's character comes off (IMO) as a patch job. There is too much inconsistency with what we know from the film and from what we are suddenly told in the series. As for Jack, he is there because he went through on the very first mission. Daniel knows him - who else is going to lead the recovery mission? Someone who has never been through and Daniel would consider 'typical' military? That would be ridiculous.

Also that ex-solider: just becuase she doesn't think Carter is a capable leader or soldier (and I would argue that they are right: S7+8 Carter was dreadful) means that it is 'prejudice' simply because it is your favourite character who is being dissected. That is being dismissive of another's concerns, especially when you haven't seen their arguements.

Carter's character has been inconsistent and there are many times where she cannot think outside the box ('That's impossible!) until Daniel (or another) prompts her. Nor did I forget the other archelogists/lingusits who worked on the gate, I'm pointing out that Carter is NOT perfect and doesn't have any more 'right' to be on the show than any other character.

In fact, probably only Daniel does, since he opened the gate and Jack to a lesser extent because he was there on the first mission: an invaulable source of information.

As for Carter not being beautiful - in my opinion she is not and as for AT? I have no idea. I have only seen her in one role so she may be pretty if attired differently. But since beauty is in the eye of the beholder how dare you accuse my opinion of beauty as 'untrue'?

And while my dislike 'colours' my opinion it is obvious that your like of the character 'colours' your opinions. So... basically, my opinions are coloured because I disliked a character, yet if you like the character your opinions cannot possibly be coloured or baised (ignoring the fact that opinions are by nature biased)?

Quite frankly I am also anti Jack in later Seasons and the demise of his character is, as I have stated PREVIOUSLY, due in part to ship and part to RDA not wanting to be there. RDA I do not think had much control of ship, considering that is what TPTB wanted and I believe the mangers also wished it.

All in all, I am anti-Jack/Carter and am stating reasons about each character which I think makes the ship compltey unsuitable and implasuible, nothing more.

I aslo reserve the right to dislike and like whom I please.

[luthienberen]

Okay, I'm not trying to come off as saying you're wrong in seeing things the way you do. Just saying how I see them. And, I was replying to you saying that one of the reasons you don't see friendship is because they don't socialize outside work. Not that it's the only reason you don't see it that way, just it was one you mentioned specifically, and again, just for me, socializing outside work isn't a factor in how I see things.

It's also one of my reasons for not really needing to see ship in general. I know one of the arguments is that if there's no ship it means that the characters have no lives or are all about work. To me, that's what Stargate is. It's about their work lives. Maybe the occasional episode outside that arena, but for the most part, while watching the show, I'm not really thinking about whether they have someone to snuggle up with at the end of the day. I watch it for their work lives, which for me, are more than just a job. The rest, I'll take in fanfiction.

I also think we have a different interpretation of friendship. But, that's okay, too.

Seriously, I'm not trying to dismiss you.


eta: This is addressed to luthienberen

Don't worry, understood. I was just trying to expand on what I said. In other words, trying to explain myself better. You're right of course: this is about their work lives, not their home lives, if I want soap I'll visit other TV shows. I think we dod have a diffreent view of reindship.

ETA: I'm tried so I aplogise if I do not make myself clear.