Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Dani347]

I think there's this natural inclination in some (and this runs the range of J/S shippers, Sam fans, Daniel fans, shippers of other persuasions, slashers, and anyone else in any category) if they feel their favorites are being attacked to attack the favorites of others. It's a tit for tat thing. You criticize one character, the response is "well character 2 did such and such." I've seen it happen in various other factions of fandom. And, to me, it doesn't really deal with the subject at hand.

Now, my favorite non shippy interactions between Jack and Sam were Secrets (I think this is one of the best episodes for both Daniel and Sam) and the little time they spent together with Linnea in Prisoners. And, there was nothing more than just two teammates and friends (I like to think of them as more than coworkers, as friends) together.

I don't mind the characters being friends, but I think it's gone too far with that UST they tried to push... I think that some have even said that there was a lot of that in Solitudes. I personally didn't see any UST in that episode. Sam was concerned about her CO and friend. I'm sure she would have been as concerned if she was with Teal'c or Daniel there instead of Jack. Then of course were the "maybes", like Jack's "lunch?" question to Sam at the end of Evolution Part 2 (I think it was that ep). I did think things seemed very forced.

I'm bolding this because that's the most important part. The way tptb write ship seems to indicate that because this relationship is supposed to be special, Sam wouldn't be just as concerned with Teal'c or Daniel, because she loves Jack. Which wouldn't make me think how great and romantic her feelings for Jack are. It would make me think, "wow, Sam's a rotten friend." I'm sure some writers could write it as Sam having special feelings and still come across as her also being just as concerned for her other teammates. But, here, it just has to be Sam cares for all of them as friends and family, because if not it just makes it all bad.

eta: I should probably say this attitude of mine comes a lot from being told by some that the proof that Jack and Sam love each other is D&C because Jack would not have had a hard time leaving Daniel or Teal'c, in because they're just friends (I had no idea friendship was such a callous thing). Of course, that ignores that Jack really didn't have a choice, and Daniel and Teal'c also stayed behind and they could have left.

[bluealien]

Have to say I never saw any romantic chemistry between any of the SG1 characters.

Don't see Jack and Sam at all. Love them as friends but nothing more. The thing I don't understand about TPTB is why they feel the need to drag out a possible romantic relationship. Why not just get on with it if thats what they are going to do. But they are usually handled so badly that even if you were partial to seeing certain characters get together romantically they usually butcher it anyway. Or they to and fro between different pairings giving hints of one paring and then switching to another, and this only fuels the shipper wars.

From what I have seen so far when it comes to shipping, it just causes way too much bad feeling and some people take it far too seriously and will attack anyone who doesn't see their ship. This has happened on far too many shows and it happens on SG1 and on Altantis. Shipping is really in the eye of the beholder and as much as I may like a particular paring I would not insist they are the only pairing and anyone who doesn't see it is delusional.

I hope that Atlantis doesn't go down the same route as SG1 and the S/J ship. I really hope they don't give us any shipping at all or if they do please don't give us endless UST and jeuvenile behaviour on the part of the characters, because all this does is make the characters look bad and takes away from their character.

Though in fairness to TPTB some people will see UST and "feelings" between characters when it was never written like that and I have even heard the actors say that they didn't play it that way. But I do think TPTB enjoy throwing in ambiguous scenes hinting that maybe there are some feelings between certain characters and then further down the road they will hint at another pairing. I really don't know why they bother with romance at all because it seems beyond their capabilities to handle it in a mature and intelligent way.

[Dani347]

People see ship between people who are blatantly written as enemies, or who've never had any connection or barely any scenes together, or sometimes people who aren't even on the same show. But, all that's fine, and doesn't really interfere with my enjoyment of what I see.

Don't see Jack and Sam at all. Love them as friends but nothing more. The thing I don't understand about TPTB is why they feel the need to drag out a possible romantic relationship. Why not just get on with it if thats what they are going to do. But they are usually handled so badly that even if you were partial to seeing certain characters get together romantically they usually butcher it anyway. Or they to and fro between different pairings giving hints of one paring and then switching to another, and this only fuels the shipper wars.

This whole dragging it out, saying it can't happen, but hinting ad nauseum about it happening is just stupid. Either say on their show, the ship is not a problem and there wouldn't be any objections to the two of them getting together (it's their show, they won't get arrested, and the military advisor may advise against it, but he (?) can't force them to write something a certain way) or have them together and make them deal with the issues that come from it.

[Jace021903]

I don't understand why it's important for people who don't like the ship to "see the light." Who does it hurt if I think this ship is putrid and makes the characters look bad? And, if it actually does hurt the fans of the ship, I'm afraid I don't see that.

I had an interesting back and forth on Joe's blog, where I said I didn't see the ship, and someone kept trying to force me to, and when I just stubbornly insisted on being blind, they couldn't let it go with just an obviously we won't see eye to eye. They had to insult me as the last word.

Someone much wiser than me said that personal insults are a sign of desperation; that the person has no good argument to counter yours and has to resort to attacking the you to distract from that fact that they have nothing of substance to add to the discussion. Hmm...sounds like politics to me.

I've got my own personal ships, and I might argue their merits if the conversation comes up, but in the end, I don't care if anyone else likes them or not.

I hardly ever support the obvious ship--I like the offbeat, unexpected couples best.

[Jace021903]

I adored Solitudes, the team working to save each other/themselves. Sam's selflessness in pretending to be Sara for her dying friend. Well written and fabulously acted by all four of them. I even found the side arm comment amusing (and with someone that sick and that cold, it would only be his gun!).

FF

Ohhh. I love Solitudes and Into the Fire (where Jack hugs Sam after being defrosted). I didn't see romantic feelings at all. I saw compassion for another human being and I loved it. Then, they had to go with the moony eyes, awkward pauses, mood lighting, and tinkling music. Give me human emotion and friendship anyday.

[Jace021903]

or have them together and make them deal with the issues that come from it.

Now, that's a plot I think I could enjoy, if it was well written.

[Luz]

Ohhh. I love Solitudes and Into the Fire (where Jack hugs Sam after being defrosted). I didn't see romantic feelings at all. I saw compassion for another human being and I loved it. Then, they had to go with the moon-y eyes, awkward pauses, mood lighting, and tinkling music. Give me human emotion and friendship anyday.

Yeah, little moments are good, but when forced ship rears its ugly head they get ruined. I've always felt i'd have been more accepting of S/J if tptb had gone slowly and steadily building with this ship up instead of springing it at us at the oddest moments.
There have been moments between them that i've liked, it's not that i don't want them to spend one second together, i just would've liked to get to know the real Carter and O'neill, how they'd have behaved if tptb hadn't ruined any chance of us seeing a natural evolution of a relationship between them.

[Dani347]

I hardly ever support the obvious ship--I like the offbeat, unexpected couples best.

One of the problems with a lot of the main ships on tv shows is that tptb of the shows seem to feel that the longer the wait for the pay off, the more satisfying. So, they have to either keep putting up these contrived situations, or in the case of J/S ship they have to bring it up at all, even though they've said it can't happen. What's the point of a ship that they've set up never to bring into fruitiion? I find usually the main ships have characters acting really foolishly just to drag it out. And, those minor ships that the writers don't think of that much show growth or just fun and normal pleasant interaction between two people.

Originally Posted by Dani347
or have them together and make them deal with the issues that come from it.

Now, that's a plot I think I could enjoy, if it was well written.

Again, that makes me think of Grey's Anatomy. Now, there are a lot of problems with the way they handle the ships (especially the main ship, which is why I hate it) but they didn't tiptoe up to the line of breaking the rules and pull back, and go back up, and pull back. They have two couples (well one couple and one used to be couple that they're dangling the carrot over) made up of attendings and interns. And, they deal with problems of people assuming that one intern is getting special treatment because she's sleeping with one of her supervisors and them treating her badly, and another attending realizing why those relationships aren't usually allowed, because he found himself not being able to separate the identity of his girlfriend with his student. I'm sure in real life there'd be official censuring, or reprimands, or something bigger than on tv, but I liked that even that much, they acknowledged that they're making characters break the rules and there are consequences. And, one of those couples are my favorite. I find it much better than not doing anything.

[JessM]

Now, my favorite non shippy interactions between Jack and Sam were Secrets (I think this is one of the best episodes for both Daniel and Sam) and the little time they spent together with Linnea in Prisoners. And, there was nothing more than just two teammates and friends (I like to think of them as more than coworkers, as friends) together.

I'm bolding this because that's the most important part. The way tptb write ship seems to indicate that because this relationship is supposed to be special, Sam wouldn't be just as concerned with Teal'c or Daniel, because she loves Jack. Which wouldn't make me think how great and romantic her feelings for Jack are. It would make me think, "wow, Sam's a rotten friend." I'm sure some writers could write it as Sam having special feelings and still come across as her also being just as concerned for her other teammates. But, here, it just has to be Sam cares for all of them as friends and family, because if not it just makes it all bad.

eta: I should probably say this attitude of mine comes a lot from being told by some that the proof that Jack and Sam love each other is D&C because Jack would not have had a hard time leaving Daniel or Teal'c, in because they're just friends (I had no idea friendship was such a callous thing). Of course, that ignores that Jack really didn't have a choice, and Daniel and Teal'c also stayed behind and they could have left.

I agree with you about their interaction in those eps. I liked it, and I didn't see it as anything more than being friends and teammates. One thing that I sometimes wondered about (though it's probably me being paranoid, or something) was why Jack had to stay in the iso room with Sam when that entity had taken over her. We see Hammond, Teal'c, and Daniel up in the observation deck. Jack didn't seem to be doing much there, except talking to the entity (and there was that "this one is special to you?" thing there, too). It almost felt to me like tptb had to throw Jack in there after what happened in D&C to emphasize that there was more between these two. There were no such scenes between Sam/entity and Teal'c or Daniel. Daniel tried to talk to the entity (with Jack there), but there was no "she is special to you" or anything like that. I'm sure it's probably not a big deal, but I just watched that ep again not too long ago, and it came up...

I think that was an awful thing to say, and if Jack would never have gone back for Daniel or Teal'c, I'd say the same thing... didn't think friends could be callous of one another.

[JessM]

But they are usually handled so badly that even if you were partial to seeing certain characters get together romantically they usually butcher it anyway. Or they to and fro between different pairings giving hints of one paring and then switching to another, and this only fuels the shipper wars.

That is the reason that even though I am a shipper, I don't wish to see any ship played out onscreen because I know they would handle it badly.

From what I have seen so far when it comes to shipping, it just causes way too much bad feeling and some people take it far too seriously and will attack anyone who doesn't see their ship. This has happened on far too many shows and it happens on SG1 and on Altantis. Shipping is really in the eye of the beholder and as much as I may like a particular paring I would not insist they are the only pairing and anyone who doesn't see it is delusional.

I hope that Atlantis doesn't go down the same route as SG1 and the S/J ship. I really hope they don't give us any shipping at all or if they do please don't give us endless UST and jeuvenile behaviour on the part of the characters, because all this does is make the characters look bad and takes away from their character.

You are exactly right about shipping being in the eye of the beholder. I came up with an expression on one of the other threads where S/J shippers were warring with me... Ship and Let Ship. There have been times when I've enjoyed Atlantis even more than SG-1 because of an absence of ship... at least in my eyes.

Though in fairness to TPTB some people will see UST and "feelings" between characters when it was never written like that and I have even heard the actors say that they didn't play it that way. But I do think TPTB enjoy throwing in ambiguous scenes hinting that maybe there are some feelings between certain characters and then further down the road they will hint at another pairing. I really don't know why they bother with romance at all because it seems beyond their capabilities to handle it in a mature and intelligent way.

That's true... not everyone is going to see something the same way. Some might see UST and "feelings" when others don't or when it wasn't intended to be that way. I do agree that they like to throw in ambiguous hints... remember Sam's

Spoiler:

"Not exactly" line in Ex Deus Machina? On some other group I was on, a bunch of S/J people seized on that immediately as evidence that she was seeing Jack. I thought it was ambiguous enough, and saw it as merely an attempt to fend Barrett off...since he did appear to be interested in her.

Then there was that deleted scene from Ripple Effect where

Spoiler:

BlackBDU Sam and BlackBDU Mitchell were supposed to kiss. PDL wanted it in there and when the writers (JM and PM I believe) got wind of it, they were annoyed and had it cut out because it wasn't what they intended.

[Dani347]

Jack didn't seem to be doing much there, except talking to the entity (and there was that "this one is special to you?" thing there, too). It almost felt to me like tptb had to throw Jack in there after what happened in D&C to emphasize that there was more between these two. There were no such scenes between Sam/entity and Teal'c or Daniel. Daniel tried to talk to the entity (with Jack there), but there was no "she is special to you" or anything like that. I'm sure it's probably not a big deal, but I just watched that ep again not too long ago, and it came up...

Oh, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be shippy. Emphasizing that Jackand Sam are special to each other. Really special. More special than Daniel or Teal'c.

[Jumper One]

Oh, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be shippy. Emphasizing that Jackand Sam are special to each other. Really special. More special than Daniel or Teal'c.

Yeah, I agree.

[JessM]

Oh, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be shippy. Emphasizing that Jackand Sam are special to each other. Really special. More special than Daniel or Teal'c.

Yeah, you're right. Ugh... One of my friends wrote some fic based on Solitudes where Jack calls Sam "snowbunny" (he was drugged), so ever since I started watching Stargate and saw a scene like the one above, I'd make fun of it by making Jack say stupid things like, "Oh, my little snowbunny"... just a stupid inside-joke I suppose, but it's fun to poke fun at those things once in a while...

[JessM]

Yeah, I agree.

Hi, Jumper One! I love your sig!

[Jumper One]

Hi, Jumper One! I love your sig!

Howdy. Surprisingly, I've never actually been inside this part of the forum before...