Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Probie]

That's the scene I was thinking about. Plus the chocolate/peanut butter thing. Sounds shippy to me. So GUP stays.



Convo is short for conversation.

Unless you thought John and Teyla flying together in the jumper and talking about the Athosians was shippy, then there wasn't one. No long looks. But my point was that some people think it was shippy. It's a matter of how you feel about them. And the same is true of Sparky. I try to be too objective, I know. Which is one thing I hate about myself. LOL



Who? What did he say?

Thanks for the definition.

For Pierre Bernard: There is a documentary in the last dvd (season 1) called "Behind the gate:....". Pierre talks to Torri and asks if her character is ready to fight for John's love. He adds "they are some looks between us" (especially looks give by John) or something like this (someone has to tell me if I'm wrong). Torri smiles and says there are some looks but she can't fight Teyla (except if she has to use horrible moves). At the end, she says Teyla and Elizabeth can be together but it's the wrong show.

[drewandian]

Thanks for the definition.

For Pierre Bernard: There is a documentary in the last dvd (season 1) called "Behind the gate:....". Pierre talks to Torri and asks if her character is ready to fight for John's love. He adds "they are some looks between us" (especially looks give by John) or something like this (someone has to tell me if I'm wrong). Torri smiles and says there are some looks but she can't fight Teyla (except if she has to use horrible moves). At the end, she says Teyla and Elizabeth can be together but it's the wrong show.

I think I remember seeing this.....

Eri I get what you're saying. And I agree with what you're saying about defining "shippy moments". I wasn't looking to ship either, but Sparky just kinda smacked me upside the head out of the blue (on my second rewatch of season one actually....it took a while).

And, for me, not all long looks or standing too close moments are necessarily 'shippy' (even if it is J/E in the scene). I think some of the sparkiness (pun intended) in those scenes that have John and Elizabeth is simply due to the chemistry of the actors. I know I say it all the time, but there's something palpable between them for me so their scenes always seem electrically charged for me. It's really only when they are obviously flirty that the scene becomes shippy for me. (the little exchange between them at the end of "38 Minutes", for example, is very shippy to me).

And I do think that J/T had some nice shippy moments (that I've seen so far anyway). Obviously the bit in the cave in Rising set off my shippy bells and set my butterflies a fluttering....there's another scene and I can't remember what ep it's from (they're in a ship, going to save someone, John and Teyla are at the table talking, it's a nice intimate moment) that was kinda shippy to me too. But in the end, the spark between John and Elizabeth won out for me and I came to see the relationship between John and Teyla as more of a familial one than a shippy one. There just weren't enough butterfly-inducing scenes for J/T for me to buy that ship as a viable one.

[Probie]

I think I remember seeing this.....

Eri I get what you're saying. And I agree with what you're saying about defining "shippy moments". I wasn't looking to ship either, but Sparky just kinda smacked me upside the head out of the blue (on my second rewatch of season one actually....it took a while).

And, for me, not all long looks or standing too close moments are necessarily 'shippy' (even if it is J/E in the scene). I think some of the sparkiness (pun intended) in those scenes that have John and Elizabeth is simply due to the chemistry of the actors. I know I say it all the time, but there's something palpable between them for me so their scenes always seem electrically charged for me. It's really only when they are obviously flirty that the scene becomes shippy for me. (the little exchange between them at the end of "38 Minutes", for example, is very shippy to me).

And I do think that J/T had some nice shippy moments (that I've seen so far anyway). Obviously the bit in the cave in Rising set off my shippy bells and set my butterflies a fluttering....there's another scene and I can't remember what ep it's from (they're in a ship, going to save someone, John and Teyla are at the table talking, it's a nice intimate moment) that was kinda shippy to me too. But in the end, the spark between John and Elizabeth won out for me and I came to see the relationship between John and Teyla as more of a familial one than a shippy one. There just weren't enough butterfly-inducing scenes for J/T for me to buy that ship as a viable one.

Sateda?

You watched season 1 twice. I watched seasons 1 ,2 and 3 and I realized I was a shipper.

[drewandian]

Sateda?

You watched season 1 twice. I watched seasons 1 ,2 and 3 and I realized I was a shipper.

Maybe...probably....I didn't see season 2 as much as I've seen season 1 so I'm fuzzy on the eps...

[Probie]

Maybe...probably....I didn't see season 2 as much as I've seen season 1 so I'm fuzzy on the eps...

Sateda is during season 3...or maybe not. Wow I'm lost. Help.lol

[drewandian]

Sateda is during season 3...or maybe not. Wow I'm lost. Help.lol

you're right...season 3 I get confused....

[Probie]

you're right...season 3 I get confused....

We are bad SGA fans, drew.lol

[Eri13]

I think I remember seeing this.....

Eri I get what you're saying. And I agree with what you're saying about defining "shippy moments". I wasn't looking to ship either, but Sparky just kinda smacked me upside the head out of the blue (on my second rewatch of season one actually....it took a while).

And, for me, not all long looks or standing too close moments are necessarily 'shippy' (even if it is J/E in the scene). I think some of the sparkiness (pun intended) in those scenes that have John and Elizabeth is simply due to the chemistry of the actors. I know I say it all the time, but there's something palpable between them for me so their scenes always seem electrically charged for me. It's really only when they are obviously flirty that the scene becomes shippy for me. (the little exchange between them at the end of "38 Minutes", for example, is very shippy to me).

And I do think that J/T had some nice shippy moments (that I've seen so far anyway). Obviously the bit in the cave in Rising set off my shippy bells and set my butterflies a fluttering....there's another scene and I can't remember what ep it's from (they're in a ship, going to save someone, John and Teyla are at the table talking, it's a nice intimate moment) that was kinda shippy to me too. But in the end, the spark between John and Elizabeth won out for me and I came to see the relationship between John and Teyla as more of a familial one than a shippy one. There just weren't enough butterfly-inducing scenes for J/T for me to buy that ship as a viable one.

It was in Sateda. That's a nice J/T scene that I wouldn't deny as shippy for a J/T fan. For me, it was more friendly but I think that's where being a shipper and making an argument for your ship counts.

I am with you--I love continuity and I feel like there were a lot of missed opportunities for many ships. Certain episodes should have had personal moments or there should have been more personal moments between characters that just weren't there. That's for many different ships. But Sparky, to me, had the most consistency, though it was never overtly romantic or had anvils. But my love of it was never because it was overtly romantic--it was because it built a foundation that could become something more in the future. That's why the S4/S5 Weir/Sheppard stuff does mean something to me. Because I think they essentially crossed that line with some of those scenes and episodes, even if in the end it was starcrossed.

[Southern Red]

Eri and drewandian, you make excellent points. So ship has to involve personal butterflies. That's a very good way of summing it up. And personal butterflies are different for everyone. Though you can't take an impersonal moment and make it personal just because you want it to be shippy. For example, ITA with the balcony scene in Rising not being shippy. It was an argument and nothing personal was involved.

But the argument in HZ became personal when he called her by her first name for the first time and they both seemed bound and determined that the other not be infected. Teyla even pointed out to John that he was a lot like Elizabeth in this conversation:

TEYLA: You should not have undermined Doctor Weir's authority in front of Sergeant Bates.

SHEPPARD: Sometimes Elizabeth makes a decision early on and gets locked into it. That's a problem.

TEYLA: She is not the only one who suffers from that affliction.

(John looks at her, then rolls his eyes before activating his radio.)


It seemed like here we'd get a nice little power struggle but they just dropped the ball on the whole thing.

And Eri gives a good explanation of just why Sparky works. Their relationship is just more personal generally than any other except maybe McShep. But knowing they would never have gone there or John/Ronon for that matter, Sparky was the only ship with a true personal history consistently. I guess you could argue that but none of us will. LOL

In the end, ironically enough, S4-5 were the Sparky icing on the Sparky cake. And it was all John.

[Eri13]

Eri and drewandian, you make excellent points. So ship has to involve personal butterflies. That's a very good way of summing it up. And personal butterflies are different for everyone. Though you can't take an impersonal moment and make it personal just because you want it to be shippy. For example, ITA with the balcony scene in Rising not being shippy. It was an argument and nothing personal was involved.

But the argument in HZ became personal when he called her by her first name for the first time and they both seemed bound and determined that the other not be infected. Teyla even pointed out to John that he was a lot like Elizabeth in this conversation:

TEYLA: You should not have undermined Doctor Weir's authority in front of Sergeant Bates.

SHEPPARD: Sometimes Elizabeth makes a decision early on and gets locked into it. That's a problem.

TEYLA: She is not the only one who suffers from that affliction.

(John looks at her, then rolls his eyes before activating his radio.)


It seemed like here we'd get a nice little power struggle but they just dropped the ball on the whole thing.

And Eri gives a good explanation of just why Sparky works. Their relationship is just more personal generally than any other except maybe McShep. But knowing they would never have gone there or John/Ronon for that matter, Sparky was the only ship with a true personal history consistently. I guess you could argue that but none of us will. LOL

In the end, ironically enough, S4-5 were the Sparky icing on the Sparky cake. And it was all John.

I might have to go watch HZ now.

Yes, we have to mightily thank JF for his woobie face. But Elizabeth had some good moments too--following LL, almost all of her actions are directed at him. What strikes me particularly is the "Hi, John" in TMC, her pointing out that to him she'll be thought 'less of' as a clone; and in GITM, her asking for John as soon as she's taken control of the computer, as well as her pleading defense to him of her actions and her kickass saving of his life from Koracen.

[drewandian]

Something totally random in support of Sparky...just because I feel the need to add it....my hubby is 100% anti ship. He will acknowledge a ship if it's scripted (for example, John and Aeryn on Farscape, Sam and Jack on SG1, even Daniel and Vala to an extent thanks to "Unending") but if there's nothing specifically said or shown in the script, the ship does not exist for him. However...he agrees that he sees Sparky and agrees that there is definitely something more than just "good friends, trusted colleagues" going on between John and Elizabeth.
(he'd like you all to know, though, that if anyone ever said that he ships Sparky he'll deny it lol )
They definitely have something no other 'hinted at' ships have....

I'm just sayin'.....

[Falcon Horus]

If viewers ship a couple, they see ship where others don't. Example: J/E in The Gift.

The Gift - beginning of a beautiful relationship between Teyla and Kate. It was that moment at the table where Teyla is all grumpy and cute at the same time.

Doppelganger - the height of Kate and Teyla, and also the end.

The first time I noticed Sparky - don't know, I just found the chemistry awesome between Torri's Elizabeth and Joe's John.

[Southern Red]

Something totally random in support of Sparky...just because I feel the need to add it....my hubby is 100% anti ship. He will acknowledge a ship if it's scripted (for example, John and Aeryn on Farscape, Sam and Jack on SG1, even Daniel and Vala to an extent thanks to "Unending") but if there's nothing specifically said or shown in the script, the ship does not exist for him. However...he agrees that he sees Sparky and agrees that there is definitely something more than just "good friends, trusted colleagues" going on between John and Elizabeth.
(he'd like you all to know, though, that if anyone ever said that he ships Sparky he'll deny it lol )
They definitely have something no other 'hinted at' ships have....

I'm just sayin'.....

Mine too. Though he never much got Sam and Jack. We are rewatching Farscape now from the beginning and John/Aeryn is an anvil upside the head you don't mind. LOL

My hubby never humors me when it comes to Sparky. If he sees it, like the flirting in Misbegotten for example, he says so. But if he thinks I am being a bit imaginative, like in GUP, he also says so. He says he also sees how people can think McShep if they are so inclined but Sheyla is a complete mystery to him after the cave scene. Same with any other ship involving Elizabeth.

The Gift - beginning of a beautiful relationship between Teyla and Kate. It was that moment at the table where Teyla is all grumpy and cute at the same time.

Doppelganger - the height of Kate and Teyla, and also the end.

The first time I noticed Sparky - don't know, I just found the chemistry awesome between Torri's Elizabeth and Joe's John.

I loved their scenes together and wish we could have seen more. They certainly had more chemistry than other ships I probably shouldn't mention.

And it does all seem to boil down to actor chemistry.

[drewandian]

Mine too. Though he never much got Sam and Jack. We are rewatching Farscape now from the beginning and John/Aeryn is an anvil upside the head you don't mind. LOL

My hubby never humors me when it comes to Sparky. If he sees it, like the flirting in Misbegotten for example, he says so. But if he thinks I am being a bit imaginative, like in GUP, he also says so. He says he also sees how people can think McShep if they are so inclined but Sheyla is a complete mystery to him after the cave scene. Same with any other ship involving Elizabeth.



I loved their scenes together and wish we could have seen more. They certainly had more chemistry than other ships I probably shouldn't mention.

And it does all seem to boil down to actor chemistry.

yes! exactly!
and I have to say that I can more easily see the Teyla/Kate ship than I can the Sheyla ship...and it doesn't surprise me, as Rachel Luttrell and Claire Rankin are friends in RL and I think that comfort and ease with one another translates well onscreen

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!

I'm not sure I agree with you guys on this. Did we really want to see that? Considering all the uproar about SGU's sex scenes, I think it would have put people off Sparky. My choice would be no storage closets but romantic kissing and waking up in the morning together but nothing explicit. No thrusting. *blushes* My imagination can do a much better job thank you very much. Though I would pay good money to see such a scene with Joe Flanigan. And yes, I am torn.

Er, perhaps I was a little too subtle there, but I was actually teasing and mocking the over-the-top and gratuitous sex scenes from SGU in that part you were referring to.

ITA and you guys kinda know how I feel generally about smut (though I'm not a prude; a good, hot scene is not lost on me and I like them when they're done well and not just shown for sensationalism).

But the way Weir and Shep were written, I would have preferred that tension play out through the end of the show with the relationship bending towards romance, but never getting there until close to the end. Elizabeth and John just had a sort of honorable bent about them (that romantic chivalry thing Scary Kitty mentioned) and I would have liked that to reach fruition and not, er, climax, if you know what I mean. It just wasn't SGA's style.

That's how I would've preferred to have seen it as well. But the writers, with the exception of Carl Binder, just don't know how to do it right.

Revised list:

Spoiler:

Martin Gero episodes
Childhood's End
The Storm (Teleplay)-J/T;J/E
The Eye-J/E
Hot Zone-J/T;J/E
The Brotherhood-McKay/OFC
The Gift (Story with Robert C. Cooper)-J/T;J/E
The Siege Part One-J/T
The Siege Part ThreeJ/E
Duet-J/E
Conversion (Teleplay, Story with Robert C. Cooper)-J/T;J/E
The Lost Boys-R/T
Grace Under Pressure-J/E
Coup D'état-J/E
Allies-J/E
No Man's Land-J/E
McKay & Mrs Miller
The Return Part One-J/T;J/E
The Return Part Two
Sunday-J/T
First Strike-J/E
Adrift-J/E
Miller's Crossing
Be All My Sins Remember'd-J/T
Harmony
Trio
Search and Rescue-J/T
First Contact-J/T
The Lost Tribe
Brain Storm-McKeller

And notice that after the trouble he got into with the hug, Gero still wrote the desksitting scene in Coup. Curiouser and curiouser.

Isn't it, though? And of course, having Elizabeth be the only one who goes to see John when he's going buggy in Conversion. Makes me wonder if Gero was a subconscious Sparky and trying to go with other ships to cover it up.

This is just me personally, but to qualify as 'ship' for me, I have to see something 'personal' in the exchange.

That's why I got sold on Sparky, because so much of what J/E shared toed beyond the line of business into 'personal'. I wasn't trying to ship anyone when I started watching, but after a while all those balcony scenes and looks just kinda piled up. It was an easy ship to accept, and you know me--I'm pretty canon-happy.

There are definitely Sparky moments I don't consider shippy per se. The GUP one I do because they're having way too much fun when poor Rodney's stuck dying in a sinking jumper. They're almost flirting and their humor infects each other.

But...and I'll probably get reamed by this *puts up shields* I don't consider the balcony scene from Rising shippy. I consider it a good J/E moment, but not Sparky, if Sparky is the ship. It was about business. It was a good argument on John's part and a good one on Liz's. But there wasn't sexual tension beneath it, it was two different viewpoints trying to explain themselves and Elizabeth wins out by virtue of the fact she's the boss at that point. But no huffing and puffing and lingering looks. Nothing 'personal'. In fact, many scenes in Season 1 I don't consider 'shippy per se'.

Time also plays a factor, as well as what's been built upon in canon. I think The Eye plays a big part in why I took to Sparky more. You don't have an episode like that demonstrating John's desperation to that degree with many other characters. Perhaps Sateda for Ronon, or GUP or Doppelganger for McKay (I'd say more Doppelganger for McShep because John's more angsty there) and maybe The Ark for Teyla.

But those are all later episodes, whereas the The Eye takes front and center eight or nine episodes in. Whether you consider his reaction to what happened to her romantic or platonic it's still obvious that he cares about her a lot--especially considering he doesn't have the same fears or anger over what's happening to Rodney, who's still captive. Essentially TE establishes a personal connection between them which many scenes going forward have as a backdrop. And hence the arguments in THZ, for example, become more shippy because Elizabeth is angry he broke her trust, and he's angry because she won't let him protect her. Or his defending her in The Gift--with TE as a backdrop it looks a little like he's defending her from being attacked either professionally or personally.

Does any of that make sense? Maybe it does in my brain...

It totally makes sense to me. It does need to be personal; that's why I see John's angst over losing Elizabeth and his vow to get her back in Lifeline as being more than just the military mindset of 'we don't leave our people behind,' it's also his own personal honor driving him to help the woman who's stuck up for him so many times in the past. Really, one doesn't even have to ship John and Elizabeth to see that.

And I agree with you that the balcony scene in Rising isn't shippy, either. It's really more in the context of them trying to feel each other out as to where they stand on issues, what they believe in; perhaps it might be considered pre-ship on some level, I don't know.

For Pierre Bernard: There is a documentary in the last dvd (season 1) called "Behind the gate:....". Pierre talks to Torri and asks if her character is ready to fight for John's love. He adds "they are some looks between us" (especially looks give by John) or something like this (someone has to tell me if I'm wrong). Torri smiles and says there are some looks but she can't fight Teyla (except if she has to use horrible moves). At the end, she says Teyla and Elizabeth can be together but it's the wrong show.

Hmm, I should go watch that again!

And Eri gives a good explanation of just why Sparky works. Their relationship is just more personal generally than any other except maybe McShep. But knowing they would never have gone there or John/Ronon for that matter, Sparky was the only ship with a true personal history consistently. I guess you could argue that but none of us will. LOL

In the end, ironically enough, S4-5 were the Sparky icing on the Sparky cake. And it was all John.

The icing, the candles, the ribbons and roses... yeah. *raises a glass to JoeF*