Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Bwahaha! Oh, I love that episode!!

It's so much fun racking up that scorecard, isn't it?

Please do! Those new, tight uniforms were horrid and I recall many amusing discussions back in the day in which we snarked at them. Exact opposite of "aesthetically pleasing".

That's a nice, polite way of putting it. I'd probably say something like, "looks like an overstuffed sausage."

I agree with what Scary Kitty said on this matter.

But I should point out that BSG's "character-driven" perspective, which SG writers have tried so hard to adopt for SGU, doesn't necessarily mean "better story".

Character-driven /=/ better show.

Also, "event-driven" and "character-driven" aren't mutually exclusive.

This, this, and THIS! It's like they've swung from one extreme to the other instead of trying to merge the best parts of both. *sighs* Ah well, on to SS6!

Since you guys and gals are going to be looking for guest stars, here's a bit of an eye-opener about the realities behind casting for a TV series: (warning for the f-word)
http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2010/0...to-fk-her.html
yikes!

*shudders* Yeah, it's pretty damn cutthroat.

Interesting read! Makes me happy that I dropped my dreams of acting years ago.

At least actors on our virtual Sparky season don't have to go through all of that!

No kidding! We love 'em, and we're gonna keep 'em employed on a show they're great on!

I think I read in a con report that Joe opened the bottle of Scotch and passed it around to the other actors. LOL Or maybe that was another bottle at another con that he realized he couldn't take home on the plane. Probably.

Sounds like the latter.

I am always amazed when reading posts on that particular scene. Virtually nobody thinks he went on the rampage for any other reason than the fact that he thought Kolya had killed Lizzie. Love it.

See? Everyone thinks that scene was Sparky-rific. Even the ones who don't want to admit it.

Which makes the fact that JF did something like 11 pilots previous to SGA even more amazing. I always thought that if he had only gotten in front of a network audience he'd be a huge star. *sad face*

Except that he has... just not as a lead. Stupid networks. *joins in sad face*

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Yeah, I think the writers need to learn more about balancing parts of any plot/character driven show. I'm sure we all complained at some point SGA needed a little bit more character driven stuff to give the show and it's characters some more clear emotional continuity, particularly in the later seasons. On the flip side, Stargate Universe sometimes makes me feel like "nothiiiiiiings haaapppeniiiiiing". Obviously that's an exaggeration of what actually transpires in the show but the way it's been going it really needs to get more exciting sometime down the line for me to stay interested. I'm sure it would, the way it's been going, but so far I can safely say I've enjoyed both SGA and BSG more. The jury's still out on SGU for me, but I think it's been slowly improve so far.

But the principle applies to anything really. Just because something about a show "can" or even "should" make it good, doesn't necessarily mean it will.

[Eri13]

Sheppard: Weir's alive?!

*shivers*

Oh, if anyone thought Sheppard would be desperate before, now he's really going to be going nuts!

I watched them both last night. *bounces* LOVED IT! *bounces more*

The "Weir's alive" line gets me every time. BUT DARNMIT COPY BOY! If only Torri had gotten that final set of lines, that episode would be 100% perfect!

Yeah, I think the writers need to learn more about balancing parts of any plot/character driven show. I'm sure we all complained at some point SGA needed a little bit more character driven stuff to give the show and it's characters some more clear emotional continuity, particularly in the later seasons. On the flip side, Stargate Universe sometimes makes me feel like "nothiiiiiiings haaapppeniiiiiing". Obviously that's an exaggeration of what actually transpires in the show but the way it's been going it really needs to get more exciting sometime down the line for me to stay interested. I'm sure it would, the way it's been going, but so far I can safely say I've enjoyed both SGA and BSG more. The jury's still out on SGU for me, but I think it's been slowly improve so far.

But the principle applies to anything really. Just because something about a show "can" or even "should" make it good, doesn't necessarily mean it will.

This is true. Funnily enough, I think the show was more 'character driven' than people imagined it was. At least, I watched for the characters, not the plots. Lost, for example, I watch for the plots with a yummy heaping side of character awesomeness. But SGA only had me on characters. Had the characters not been appealing, I wouldn't have stuck around.

However, it was definitely story driven and not focused on 'developing' characters. The actors sorta did that on their own with the lines they got.

Alright--well, we've kinda dried up on the season premiere. For now, let's shelve it. Perhaps as we weed through the rest of the episodes we can hammer out more of it.

So, let's go on to episode 3--which I've tentatively titled "The Resolution of Todd".

Our S5 watchers, can you answer a few questions?

1) Where are the Wraith numbers-wise when EATG occurs--how many are left around Pegasus--do they look like they're starting to feel the effects of war on them?

2) How trustworthy is Todd at this point

Anything else relevant to developing a Todd-centric story, please fill in.

Titles and potential writers are also welcome.

[Southern Red]

Well it looks like I'm not going anywhere. Blizzard 1 SR 0 We're busy canceling all the reservations. We'll try again later. And now we're just praying we don't lose power in the latest blizzard. 40 MPH winds and zero visibility across the area.

I watched them both last night. *bounces* LOVED IT! *bounces more*

The "Weir's alive" line gets me every time. BUT DARNMIT COPY BOY! If only Torri had gotten that final set of lines, that episode would be 100% perfect!



This is true. Funnily enough, I think the show was more 'character driven' than people imagined it was. At least, I watched for the characters, not the plots. Lost, for example, I watch for the plots with a yummy heaping side of character awesomeness. But SGA only had me on characters. Had the characters not been appealing, I wouldn't have stuck around.

However, it was definitely story driven and not focused on 'developing' characters. The actors sorta did that on their own with the lines they got.

Alright--well, we've kinda dried up on the season premiere. For now, let's shelve it. Perhaps as we weed through the rest of the episodes we can hammer out more of it.

So, let's go on to episode 3--which I've tentatively titled "The Resolution of Todd".

Our S5 watchers, can you answer a few questions?

1) Where are the Wraith numbers-wise when EATG occurs--how many are left around Pegasus--do they look like they're starting to feel the effects of war on them?

2) How trustworthy is Todd at this point

Anything else relevant to developing a Todd-centric story, please fill in.

Titles and potential writers are also welcome.

I agree about the character driven part. I'm always puzzled when people say they never got to know the characters, that they don't relate much or even seem to like each other. I wonder what show they watched and can give countless examples of how they all relate. That little scene with Ronon and Weir in Adrift comes to mind. How many other times did they need a scene showing how he has grown to like and respect her? That scene was sufficient to me. I think if in each ep they had shown them all being buddy buddy and touchy feely and pouring out their life stories to each other even more people would have complained. And the scene with John and Teyla in Sateda when he said they were like family would have had less of an impact.

I think John still considers Todd a threat and he's still threatening to kill him on a daily basis. Some posters on the EatG thread even thought John did kill him if I recall correctly. I just can't see that happening at this point but John certainly doesn't trust him. I think the way EatG ended left Todd in a very similar position to the Wraith in Vegas. Everyone assumes that was Todd because he knew John but it may not have been the same Wraith. Just a thought. Anyway, I think the IOA would have something to say about what happens to him and I wonder how John would react. I think even though he pretends to hate him John has a soft spot for the big guy and wouldn't want him to be out of his control. Ronon also would have something to say about that.

I'm not clear on the Wraith situation in the Pegasus. I wonder what Todd's hive is up to while he's away.

[Eri13]

Well it looks like I'm not going anywhere. Blizzard 1 SR 0 We're busy canceling all the reservations. We'll try again later. And now we're just praying we don't lose power in the latest blizzard. 40 MPH winds and zero visibility across the area.

I agree about the character driven part. I'm always puzzled when people say they never got to know the characters, that they don't relate much or even seem to like each other. I wonder what show they watched and can give countless examples of how they all relate. That little scene with Ronon and Weir in Adrift comes to mind. How many other times did they need a scene showing how he has grown to like and respect her? That scene was sufficient to me. I think if in each ep they had shown them all being buddy buddy and touchy feely and pouring out their life stories to each other even more people would have complained. And the scene with John and Teyla in Sateda when he said they were like family would have had less of an impact.

I think John still considers Todd a threat and he's still threatening to kill him on a daily basis. Some posters on the EatG thread even thought John did kill him if I recall correctly. I just can't see that happening at this point but John certainly doesn't trust him. I think the way EatG ended left Todd in a very similar position to the Wraith in Vegas. Everyone assumes that was Todd because he knew John but it may not have been the same Wraith. Just a thought. Anyway, I think the IOA would have something to say about what happens to him and I wonder how John would react. I think even though he pretends to hate him John has a soft spot for the big guy and wouldn't want him to be out of his control. Ronon also would have something to say about that.

I'm not clear on the Wraith situation in the Pegasus. I wonder what Todd's hive is up to while he's away.

What's weird about the Blizzard situation? Earlier this year I did a re-read of my Laura Ingalls Wilder books and read "The Long Winter". I thought 'that must have been hard' and thought it was interesting that the beginning of the story started out with an Indian predicting the hard Winter as being every so many years. I wondered if it was true. I think it is, and this is ours.

Stargate is such an odd show in terms of how it was set up. They cast extremely well, know how to make characters who aren't terribly boring that you become sincerely attached to, and yet somewhere there's something missing. IDK--I can't explain it. I only know I really LOVE the characters of the show and it wouldn't matter what situation you put them in so long as I could keep watching them. I can't say that for other shows.

[Fionnait]

Stargate is such an odd show in terms of how it was set up. They cast extremely well, know how to make characters who aren't terribly boring that you become sincerely attached to, and yet somewhere there's something missing. IDK--I can't explain it. I only know I really LOVE the characters of the show and it wouldn't matter what situation you put them in so long as I could keep watching them. I can't say that for other shows.

I get what you mean. For example, I love Conversion because of the interaction between the characters, especially John and Elizabeth, even though the scientific crap that they produced really makes me want to throw things at the TV. Still I watch it and like it because of the characters.

And my neck hurts so bad that I had to go home today and have to lie down every couple of minutes. Ouch. Don't know why, even!
Plus there is snow. Again. *sigh*

[nephtys59]

The "Weir's alive" line gets me every time. BUT DARNMIT COPY BOY! If only Torri had gotten that final set of lines, that episode would be 100% perfect!

What about the "it's good to hear your voice" line, reprised in GITM? *melts*

*sighs contentedly*

[Eri13]

What about the "it's good to hear your voice" line, reprised in GITM? *melts*

*sighs contentedly*

That's why I CAN'T sigh contendedly! *bangs fist*

That dialogue goes:

Sheppard: "It's good to hear your voice."
Weir: "Yeah, it's good to hear!"

Weir's line was supposed to read "Yeah, it's good to hear you too!" But if you listen to Gero's commentary, he tells us that the 'you too' was the last line on that teleplay page, and it got dropped by accident somewhere between writing and editing by whoever was copying the script. So when Torri got it, the 'you too' was gone, so she read "Yeah, it's good to hear" instead of "Yeah, it's good to hear you too!".

Everybody's copy was like that, presumably, so nobody knew the difference, and since writers don't attend filming, Gero didn't know. Of course, once the mistake was realized, there was no way to reshoot or alter because 1) that shoot was impossibly hard because of the set-up to create the storm, so no reshoots 2) it had been shot without mikes, everything was ADR after-the-fact, so Torri had to match her lips and how she read the lines.

So Erika is very sad, because an already good line could have been even greater!!

[Southern Red]

What's weird about the Blizzard situation? Earlier this year I did a re-read of my Laura Ingalls Wilder books and read "The Long Winter". I thought 'that must have been hard' and thought it was interesting that the beginning of the story started out with an Indian predicting the hard Winter as being every so many years. I wondered if it was true. I think it is, and this is ours.

Stargate is such an odd show in terms of how it was set up. They cast extremely well, know how to make characters who aren't terribly boring that you become sincerely attached to, and yet somewhere there's something missing. IDK--I can't explain it. I only know I really LOVE the characters of the show and it wouldn't matter what situation you put them in so long as I could keep watching them. I can't say that for other shows.

Yeah on the winter. It's bad all over the world I think. We've lived here for 30 years and I've never seen anything like this. A couple of winters were bad but two blizzards this close together are breaking records set upwards of 100 years ago. They've stopped mail delivery which is a first.

And yeah, there was something weird about SGA. I don't think they knew what they wanted to be and it all seemed to change in S2. S1 had a lighter tone even though it was dark in theme, if that makes sense. The Storm/Eye are good examples. Then adding Ronon in S2 changed the Sheppard dynamic. I remember at the time when JF said that Ronon was around to kick ass so he wouldn't have to. Something in my head went "uh oh". I was afraid we were going to lose commando John which we kinda did in some cases. Then instead of the action hero we got the ruthless commander of Miller's Crossing. Then losing Elizabeth was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back to a lot of viewers. Actually, it started with Carson and went downhill from there and they started bleeding old viewers. I hear the rating were up a bit in S5 and I guess I have to accept facts. It's hard to separate out the spin but it was a different show by then.

And ITA on the characters. I would watch these same characters in any type of show with any setting as long as the same actors played them. At least in most cases.

[Eri13]

Yeah on the winter. It's bad all over the world I think. We've lived here for 30 years and I've never seen anything like this. A couple of winters were bad but two blizzards this close together are breaking records set upwards of 100 years ago. They've stopped mail delivery which is a first.

And yeah, there was something weird about SGA. I don't think they knew what they wanted to be and it all seemed to change in S2. S1 had a lighter tone even though it was dark in theme, if that makes sense. The Storm/Eye are good examples. Then adding Ronon in S2 changed the Sheppard dynamic. I remember at the time when JF said that Ronon was around to kick ass so he wouldn't have to. Something in my head went "uh oh". I was afraid we were going to lose commando John which we kinda did in some cases. Then instead of the action hero we got the ruthless commander of Miller's Crossing. Then losing Elizabeth was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back to a lot of viewers. Actually, it started with Carson and went downhill from there and they started bleeding old viewers. I hear the rating were up a bit in S5 and I guess I have to accept facts. It's hard to separate out the spin but it was a different show by then.

And ITA on the characters. I would watch these same characters in any type of show with any setting as long as the same actors played them. At least in most cases.

I heard commando!John made them seriously uncomfortable, which is why we never get Sheppard that dark again (until Miller's Crossing--which also made them uncomfortable, so they never explored that storyline, either--was his guilt over that even mentioned in 'Remnants'?). That, I say, is a darn shame because it's things like that which make the characters more interesting. Much as we love lighthearted John, he's a more fulfilling character when you get into the stuff that explains why he was in Antarctica and why he was willing to go to Atlantis. No 'super nice guy' ends up in that situation unless there's a story behind it. At least not a squeaky-clean, genial, nice soldier. That is something that should have been realized and embraced. Flaws make characters worth your time.

But somehow, they gave them enough depth. I don't know if it was actors pushing the button or writers of different ilks spinning the characters their way, but they managed it. I've mentioned a hundred times why I'm such an Elizabeth fan, because she was a unique female in sci-fi, not much of an archetype. It may have been because they didn't know exactly what to do with her all the time that gave her that unique twist. Who knows. *shrugs*

They could have made the show go 10,000 different ways with Elizabeth. If they thought 'character' rather than 'plot', it might have worked for having Elizabeth become assimilated (fixably so!) by Oberoth and turned her into an enemy for a season or 2. Imagine the fun with that we all could have had. So long as she was rescued eventually, but that was one way to take Weir, give her something new to do, give Torri something very new to do, and yet keep her around so her fans could enjoy her.

[Lythisrose]

I heard commando!John made them seriously uncomfortable, which is why we never get Sheppard that dark again (until Miller's Crossing--which also made them uncomfortable, so they never explored that storyline, either--was his guilt over that even mentioned in 'Remnants'?). That, I say, is a darn shame because it's things like that which make the characters more interesting. Much as we love lighthearted John, he's a more fulfilling character when you get into the stuff that explains why he was in Antarctica and why he was willing to go to Atlantis. No 'super nice guy' ends up in that situation unless there's a story behind it. At least not a squeaky-clean, genial, nice soldier. That is something that should have been realized and embraced. Flaws make characters worth your time.

But somehow, they gave them enough depth. I don't know if it was actors pushing the button or writers of different ilks spinning the characters their way, but they managed it. I've mentioned a hundred times why I'm such an Elizabeth fan, because she was a unique female in sci-fi, not much of an archetype. It may have been because they didn't know exactly what to do with her all the time that gave her that unique twist. Who knows. *shrugs*

They could have made the show go 10,000 different ways with Elizabeth. If they thought 'character' rather than 'plot', it might have worked for having Elizabeth become assimilated (fixably so!) by Oberoth and turned her into an enemy for a season or 2. Imagine the fun with that we all could have had. So long as she was rescued eventually, but that was one way to take Weir, give her something new to do, give Torri something very new to do, and yet keep her around so her fans could enjoy her.

Just chiming in to say I agree with this 1000 %!

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

I watched them both last night. *bounces* LOVED IT! *bounces more*

The "Weir's alive" line gets me every time. BUT DARNMIT COPY BOY! If only Torri had gotten that final set of lines, that episode would be 100% perfect!

*joins Eri in sporking the copy boy* We will not have silly mistakes like that in SS6, that's for sure!

This is true. Funnily enough, I think the show was more 'character driven' than people imagined it was. At least, I watched for the characters, not the plots. Lost, for example, I watch for the plots with a yummy heaping side of character awesomeness. But SGA only had me on characters. Had the characters not been appealing, I wouldn't have stuck around.

However, it was definitely story driven and not focused on 'developing' characters. The actors sorta did that on their own with the lines they got.

I think that's the problem with me and SGU-- the characters aren't appealing to me at all, and the story (or rather, lack thereof) hasn't been able to fill in the gap, so I haven't stuck around. By contrast, SGA had me hooked from Rising, both by characters and story. We certainly didn't get as much character development on SGA as there's been in SGU, but in a sense, the mystery about characters like Sheppard and Ronon appeals to me. It's like a treasure hunt to find those little nuggets of information.

I need to rewatch EatG, or at least go over the transcript. I got the impression that things were getting desperate for them, hence Todd putting that plan in motion and then getting backstabbed by one of his underlings.

I agree about the character driven part. I'm always puzzled when people say they never got to know the characters, that they don't relate much or even seem to like each other. I wonder what show they watched and can give countless examples of how they all relate. That little scene with Ronon and Weir in Adrift comes to mind. How many other times did they need a scene showing how he has grown to like and respect her? That scene was sufficient to me. I think if in each ep they had shown them all being buddy buddy and touchy feely and pouring out their life stories to each other even more people would have complained. And the scene with John and Teyla in Sateda when he said they were like family would have had less of an impact.

The moments between Teyla and Kanaan are another good example; we didn't see many of them, but what we did see made it pretty clear that there was a powerful connection between them. It was perhaps quieter and more private than other pairings, but that also helps to show us how private a character Teyla is.

I think John still considers Todd a threat and he's still threatening to kill him on a daily basis. Some posters on the EatG thread even thought John did kill him if I recall correctly. I just can't see that happening at this point but John certainly doesn't trust him. I think the way EatG ended left Todd in a very similar position to the Wraith in Vegas. Everyone assumes that was Todd because he knew John but it may not have been the same Wraith. Just a thought. Anyway, I think the IOA would have something to say about what happens to him and I wonder how John would react. I think even though he pretends to hate him John has a soft spot for the big guy and wouldn't want him to be out of his control. Ronon also would have something to say about that.

I'm not clear on the Wraith situation in the Pegasus. I wonder what Todd's hive is up to while he's away.

Agreed. Todd's been too useful to Atlantis, even when things have sometimes gone pear-shaped, to kill him off now, and I think John recognizes that even though he's still concerned about the potential security nightmare.

Stargate is such an odd show in terms of how it was set up. They cast extremely well, know how to make characters who aren't terribly boring that you become sincerely attached to, and yet somewhere there's something missing. IDK--I can't explain it. I only know I really LOVE the characters of the show and it wouldn't matter what situation you put them in so long as I could keep watching them. I can't say that for other shows.

Bring on the AUs!

And yeah, there was something weird about SGA. I don't think they knew what they wanted to be and it all seemed to change in S2. S1 had a lighter tone even though it was dark in theme, if that makes sense. The Storm/Eye are good examples. Then adding Ronon in S2 changed the Sheppard dynamic. I remember at the time when JF said that Ronon was around to kick ass so he wouldn't have to. Something in my head went "uh oh". I was afraid we were going to lose commando John which we kinda did in some cases. Then instead of the action hero we got the ruthless commander of Miller's Crossing. Then losing Elizabeth was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back to a lot of viewers. Actually, it started with Carson and went downhill from there and they started bleeding old viewers. I hear the rating were up a bit in S5 and I guess I have to accept facts. It's hard to separate out the spin but it was a different show by then.

And ITA on the characters. I would watch these same characters in any type of show with any setting as long as the same actors played them. At least in most cases.

TPTW sure seemed to keep changing their minds about what they wanted out of SGA, didn't they? Not just the shift between S1 and S2, but then again between S3 and S4. I'd say that speaks to the lack of forethought and not having a real plan for how the major storyarcs in the series (the study of the city, the Wraith, the Genii, Weir and the Replicators, etc.) would develop over the course of multiple seasons. It was like every year, they just kept running up against the season finale and then turned to each other and said, "Now what?" Pretty sloppy. Fortunately, we're not making those mistakes.

[Scary Kitty]

I heard commando!John made them seriously uncomfortable, which is why we never get Sheppard that dark again (until Miller's Crossing--which also made them uncomfortable, so they never explored that storyline, either--was his guilt over that even mentioned in 'Remnants'?). That, I say, is a darn shame because it's things like that which make the characters more interesting. Much as we love lighthearted John, he's a more fulfilling character when you get into the stuff that explains why he was in Antarctica and why he was willing to go to Atlantis. No 'super nice guy' ends up in that situation unless there's a story behind it. At least not a squeaky-clean, genial, nice soldier. That is something that should have been realized and embraced. Flaws make characters worth your time.

And yet, most fans ate up dark!commando!John like a thirsty man in a desert. Yet another example of how TPTW just weren't in tune with the fans. We wanted the more three-dimensional character with his flaws and secrets, Joe wanted it, but at times it seemed it was like pulling teeth trying to get it.

But somehow, they gave them enough depth. I don't know if it was actors pushing the button or writers of different ilks spinning the characters their way, but they managed it. I've mentioned a hundred times why I'm such an Elizabeth fan, because she was a unique female in sci-fi, not much of an archetype. It may have been because they didn't know exactly what to do with her all the time that gave her that unique twist. Who knows. *shrugs*

Or maybe it was the unique twist she had that so befuddled them that they couldn't figure out to do with her.

They could have made the show go 10,000 different ways with Elizabeth. If they thought 'character' rather than 'plot', it might have worked for having Elizabeth become assimilated (fixably so!) by Oberoth and turned her into an enemy for a season or 2. Imagine the fun with that we all could have had. So long as she was rescued eventually, but that was one way to take Weir, give her something new to do, give Torri something very new to do, and yet keep her around so her fans could enjoy her.

Exactly! Moving the character around on the playing board, putting her in a situation that is very much out of her comfort zone, and then showing us, from week to week, what happens as a result, would have been a much better way of continuing to use the character than the occasional peek-a-boo standalone that left us unsatisfied.

[Southern Red]

I heard commando!John made them seriously uncomfortable, which is why we never get Sheppard that dark again (until Miller's Crossing--which also made them uncomfortable, so they never explored that storyline, either--was his guilt over that even mentioned in 'Remnants'?). That, I say, is a darn shame because it's things like that which make the characters more interesting. Much as we love lighthearted John, he's a more fulfilling character when you get into the stuff that explains why he was in Antarctica and why he was willing to go to Atlantis. No 'super nice guy' ends up in that situation unless there's a story behind it. At least not a squeaky-clean, genial, nice soldier. That is something that should have been realized and embraced. Flaws make characters worth your time.

But somehow, they gave them enough depth. I don't know if it was actors pushing the button or writers of different ilks spinning the characters their way, but they managed it. I've mentioned a hundred times why I'm such an Elizabeth fan, because she was a unique female in sci-fi, not much of an archetype. It may have been because they didn't know exactly what to do with her all the time that gave her that unique twist. Who knows. *shrugs*

They could have made the show go 10,000 different ways with Elizabeth. If they thought 'character' rather than 'plot', it might have worked for having Elizabeth become assimilated (fixably so!) by Oberoth and turned her into an enemy for a season or 2. Imagine the fun with that we all could have had. So long as she was rescued eventually, but that was one way to take Weir, give her something new to do, give Torri something very new to do, and yet keep her around so her fans could enjoy her.

So just when Sheppard gets interesting, they get the willies and back off. I see. I've heard conflicting reports on how JF stands on this. I doubt he wanted John to be perfect. In Remnants, Kolya concentrates on John's guilt about not keeping his people safe. The left out lines about Elizabeth would have added so much. But he doesn't mention any actions John took of a dubious nature. I would love to have learned what it was in his nature that made him able to do those things and stay sane. I know there's a faction in fandom that insists he is a raving lunatic, but I don't think they understand how soldiers are trained.

[Scary Kitty]

So just when Sheppard gets interesting, they get the willies and back off. I see. I've heard conflicting reports on how JF stands on this. I doubt he wanted John to be perfect. In Remnants, Kolya concentrates on John's guilt about not keeping his people safe. The left out lines about Elizabeth would have added so much. But he doesn't mention any actions John took of a dubious nature. I would love to have learned what it was in his nature that made him able to do those things and stay sane. I know there's a faction in fandom that insists he is a raving lunatic, but I don't think they understand how soldiers are trained.

Especially if the theory that John was Special Ops is true. The training is some damn brutal stuff, and given the kind of missions that they're known to get, he's no doubt seen and very possibly done some brutal stuff of his own.