Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Probie]

Shiny new TV? Ooooh! Definitely gonna have to dedicate it with a viewing of classic SGA episodes.

My mom already wants to re-watch all the episodes. How she said? "I want to see all the woobie face, hugs, kiss and sparks again" or something like this.

[Probie]

SGU commercial on German TV with Lady Gaga as soundtrack and interspersed with them crazy woman jumping around half-naked... I have nothing more to say. Target audience... sure!

What? You have SGU on German Tv? Poor you.
No French channel bought SGU for the moment.

[Fionnait]

Well, first commercial I've seen so far.

[Probie]

Well, first commercial I've seen so far.

I just saw it. I forgot it was wednesday.

[Erin87]

Fabulous 'Lifeline' discussion SK and Anuna! I agree completely. No Liz = no Atlantis. *emphatic nod*

Good to see you around again gateraid. The new caps and answers to the discussion questions were very entertaining.

Hi everybody!!!

Just posted these in my LJ and thought you could make use of them...it's some loverly art by several computer artists of Atlantis...and they're beautiful. I'm sure you can use some of them for art or banners, or whatever...

http://samstareagle.livejournal.com/15336.html

Ooo! Thanks for those! And the last one is fireworks!! *waves hand enthusiastically at current sig and jumps up and down* Major squee there. I will now be required to make a wallpaper from that fireworks ficlet I did a while back.

Not just failed, but crashed and burned. And yes, in the process, all the really cool and interesting things that set Atlantis apart from SG-1 were destroyed, making Atlantis nothing more than SG-1 Lite. (And now SGU is little more than SG-1 Lite, Version 2.0. Clearly, TPTW haven't learned anything from their past mistakes.) The ATA gene and dependent technology were so diminished as to be little more than a passing fad, they started relying more and more on Earth-centric stories and less on the search for the secrets of the Ancients, and of course, the emotional heart of the show, through Elizabeth and how she linked everyone else together, was gone. Meh.

I think I'm gonna go watch some classic Season 1 SGA now.

Ah yes. Season 1 always makes me feel better.

[Falcon Horus]

*runs in*

*tackles gateraid*

*runs out*

[Scary Kitty]

I've been doing that the past couple of days, by request of my kids...*sigh* such great stuff....

Think of it this way, they're doing their research for their Halloween costumes!

Nice discussion and I have to miss it. *pouts*

ITA with you guys. Just wanted to pop in and say hi.

*huggles*

SGU commercial on German TV with Lady Gaga as soundtrack and interspersed with them crazy woman jumping around half-naked... I have nothing more to say. Target audience... sure!

LMAO at the description of the commercial... that's the best they can do?! Yep, the franchise is doomed.

My mom already wants to re-watch all the episodes. How she said? "I want to see all the woobie face, hugs, kiss and sparks again" or something like this.

Hahah! I like the way your mom thinks!

Fabulous 'Lifeline' discussion SK and Anuna! I agree completely. No Liz = no Atlantis. *emphatic nod*

<snippage>

Ah yes. Season 1 always makes me feel better.

And here's this for fun... SyFy is going to reboot the SGA 5pm weekday reruns from the beginning with Rising on January 19. Hmm, this may call for a post-a-thon!

*runs in*

*tackles gateraid*

*runs out*

*entices the lemming with a saucer of sugar*

[gateraid]

*bwahahahahahaha!* Those are hysterical! Poor Caldwell!

I love your answers to the LL questions--clever as always.

LCJS, nice song lyrics, they really do fit.

Thanks Reading your recaps are always interesting. As usual, you picked on quite a few important points that I hadn't even considered

And speaking of songs, I have this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNWmOtvkQkE to describe TPTW & TH/EW's relationship (there's another one that would be ideal, but there's a swear word in the title )

I'm sure John would've preferred that arrangement, as well.

I'm sure it gets cold in those jumpers, they need to stay together for warmth

Come to think of it, Elizabeth might have been able to do it just by interfacing her nanites with the jumper's systems.

Given the canon they'd provided us I don't think so. Remember back in Progeny, when they flew the jumper out of the Replicator Atlantis? The Replicators apparently built jumpers that required the ATA gene to operate. Also, apparently these new jumpers can cloak too, but the replicators can't detect them when they are cloaked. Riiiiight.

I think it's something they could have touched on if Weir had stayed on during the season. Sadly this was not the case. Alternatively, they could have swiped a Replicator ship to escape

I've been a bad sparky lately and it's finally time to join the discussion!

You'll have to join Weir on Shep's knee for a good spanking

8) Did you approve of the boys' decision to activate the kill switch when Elizabeth left the jumper?

Yes and no. It was logical, heartbreaking and shouldn't have ended the way it did. *throws sticks at PTB*

Faux drama, wasn't it? It's not like Elizabeth would've dropped dead whilst running down the corridor, that really would have been lame

12) Why do you think the writers chose Elizabeth's 'demise' to be a 'capture' storyline? Why not have something happen to her like Ford, and have her mysteriously pop up later? Why leave her friends with the impression that she could still be alive?

IDK. Really. Capture scenario without reasonable resolution (and Elizabeth capture didn't have a reasonable resolution or closure) makes no sense, especially if the freaking leader is captured. There were no real consequences, no proper grieving, no memorial service for frak's sake!

Why leave us all with the impression that she is still alive? So they could pull 'nobody really dies in sci fi' card and bring her back so they could say she wasn't "forgotten" and all that jazz. Which they did and failed miserably.

Playing devils advocate, having her die in Adrift (which is what would've happened if TH hadn't agreed to do a few eps) would've been pretty lame. No doubt Carter would've arrived within that ep, fairly jarring IMO.

I think anyone who was captured wouldn't have been killed (on screen, within that ep) and would've suffered the same fate.

That said, it's one of those situations where you have to know what is going on behind the screen, otherwise the ending and explanation doesn't make sense (at least to me)

B) Do you think John really believes he can rescue Elizabeth in the balcony scene at the end? Or is he just saying something to comfort himself?

Yes. I think he has to believe that, for his own sake. I only wish Rodney was with him in that scene, or anyone else but Sam. Because it was really a lame lame LAME rehash of The Rising scene.

It had to be her. Plus, given the time lapsed, he must've been out there a while for them to have connected to the midway bridge and briefed the SGC. My inference was that she was taking care of things while he got his head back together.

Here comes that TNG comparison again; they showed Picard getting tortured! Granted, the Cardassians weren't out to turn Picard into a lab experiment, but still! TNG had the balls to do the scary hard stuff; SG's PTW didn't and still don't.

I agree with that, but playing devils advocate again, what constitutes torture for a part replicator? I never really got a handle on them. When Fran says in GiTM that they activated the rest of the nanites, what does that mean and how does it actually make her all that different? The replicators actually seem to be fairly autonomous, all with individual 'feelings' and consciousness. Even with the nanites all active, she is still flesh and blood, so it's not like she could walk through a wall like Oberoth.

So what would they do? Waterboard her, or hook her up to a computer? It never seemed like something definable to me.

*runs in*

*tackles gateraid*

*runs out*

Anyone who says you can't get a good buzz from staring at a computer screen is lying

(((hugs)))

[Falcon Horus]

*entices the lemming with a saucer of sugar*

*is weak*

[gateraid]

I really am a long way behind in this thread. I still want to look through the back half of s3 recaps, there's gold in there

7) The connection/bond between Weir and Sheppard is very palpable in Lifeline. Why do you think the editors, PTW, writers and directors allowed so many close moments and lingering looks in this episode?


There was more Sparky in this than I believed possible. I never thought they would go this far. Unlike in the past when they exchanged a look and you could wave it off as being just leader to leader communication of the "are we on the same page oh crap we are so screwed" kind, in this episode the looks went on way too long not to be written in. They just had whole conversations. Even Rodney noticed and commented on it so that one little scene tells us it was deliberate.

I'm not sure why they did it. I doubt it was meant to be shippy. It's likely they were thinking of some scenario in which they were letting the other know they supported their decisions and wanted to display a joint determination. *shrugs* Who knows how those particular minds worked?

Was this what you were hinting at?

Spoiler:

Do you think he noticed?
We're just seducing each other with our eyes, he can't prove anything

And this one just for fun

Spoiler:

:ellis: You realise next year, when you get command of one of these, that you have to shave your head to?

C) Were you impressed with the Sparky in this episode? Could it have been done better?

The only thing that would have been better was for them to actually say something to each other about their personal connection. A few words of a vague nature or some hint that they might have a future would have been sufficient. But since they thought she was coming back that couldn't happen because they would have felt like they needed to follow up on it. There was evidently such a strong objection among some of TPTB against shipping main characters that even that little bit would have been too much.
_________________

I agree, something vague would've been enough. But they started off the series with an attempt at ship (it was such a success that Teyla was impregnated by another man), so I don't see what their problem was here. Given that it seems they were destined to kill her off, it's not like it would've created any major headaches

[Southern Red]

I really am a long way behind in this thread. I still want to look through the back half of s3 recaps, there's gold in there



Was this what you were hinting at?

Spoiler:

[ATTACH]9502[/ATTACH]

Do you think he noticed?
We're just seducing each other with our eyes, he can't prove anything

And this one just for fun

Spoiler:

[ATTACH]9503[/ATTACH]

:ellis: You realise next year, when you get command of one of these, that you have to shave your head to?

I agree, something vague would've been enough. But they started off the series with an attempt at ship (it was such a success that Teyla was impregnated by another man), so I don't see what their problem was here. Given that it seems they were destined to kill her off, it's not like it would've created any major headaches

That first one is exactly what I was referring to. With this dialogue:

(John turns in his seat and looks at Elizabeth. She nods to him. Rodney looks at them indignantly.)

McKAY: What? You don’t believe me, but you believe her?

SHEPPARD: No offence.

McKAY: Offence taken!


And most of the ship in S4 and 5 was determined by behind the scenes situations. Imagine what might have happened if Rachel had not gotten pregnant. *shudders*

But that still doesn't answer the question of Paul Mullie and his supposed aversion to shipping main characters. Or was it just Sheppard/Teyla? That was never made clear. I wonder why he waited until the very end to speak up? That was never made clear either. Yet, on the other hand, Gero's ship preference was clear right up to the end and he was allowed to write it without interference. That just resulted in very confused canon for that particular ship. I would love to know what the average viewer thought. I know people who were surprised that they didn't get Teyla and John together. But I know more people who assumed Sparky was the canon ship and say that if she had stayed they would have ended up together. The last group doesn't know what happened to Torri.

But JM did make it pretty clear on several occasions in his blog that they consider Teyla's story to be done and she is with Kanaan and happy about it. Aside from a few sarcastic remarks to posters that just won't accept his previous answer, that is. He also has not been very friendly to Sparky shippers, so I'm thinking those two particular ships are pretty much off the table.

I'm definitely glad there won't be a movie and the books are not official canon. They can change things from here on out but they can't erase what is already canon. So, as I see it, we don't have one single thing in canon that we have to explain away, ignore, or that makes us have to come up with a convoluted illogical explanation for. John and Elizabeth's relationship may not have been canon in a romantic way, but no one can dispute their close connection.

[gateraid]

That first one is exactly what I was referring to. With this dialogue:

(John turns in his seat and looks at Elizabeth. She nods to him. Rodney looks at them indignantly.)

McKAY: What? You don’t believe me, but you believe her?

SHEPPARD: No offence.

McKAY: Offence taken!


And most of the ship in S4 and 5 was determined by behind the scenes situations. Imagine what might have happened if Rachel had not gotten pregnant. *shudders*

Exactly. But, it probably would've happened in s5 instead of McKeller. Interestingly, in S & R, Rodney's treatment of Keller in the jumper is akin to something he just scraped off his shoe (written by Gero).

But that still doesn't answer the question of Paul Mullie and his supposed aversion to shipping main characters. Or was it just Sheppard/Teyla? That was never made clear. I wonder why he waited until the very end to speak up? That was never made clear either. Yet, on the other hand, Gero's ship preference was clear right up to the end and he was allowed to write it without interference. That just resulted in very confused canon for that particular ship. I would love to know what the average viewer thought. I know people who were surprised that they didn't get Teyla and John together. But I know more people who assumed Sparky was the canon ship and say that if she had stayed they would have ended up together. The last group doesn't know what happened to Torri.

I admit, I was surprised too. I'm not saying it would've worked (it could've, depending on who wrote it), i was just surprised. There was a prime opportunity for them to say something about sparky in GiTM, even if it was just a line at the end after Fran had walked through the gate, yet again nothing happened. And if I wasn't on the net, I wouldn't know what'd happened to Torri, or why Weir just vanished into the abyss.

But JM did make it pretty clear on several occasions in his blog that they consider Teyla's story to be done and she is with Kanaan and happy about it. Aside from a few sarcastic remarks to posters that just won't accept his previous answer, that is. He also has not been very friendly to Sparky shippers, so I'm thinking those two particular ships are pretty much off the table.

I wish they'd mentioned that he came with them to Earth (on screen). I guess we didn't see much of Kanaan as the actor had another role within the show.

I'm definitely glad there won't be a movie and the books are not official canon. They can change things from here on out but they can't erase what is already canon. So, as I see it, we don't have one single thing in canon that we have to explain away, ignore, or that makes us have to come up with a convoluted illogical explanation for. John and Elizabeth's relationship may not have been canon in a romantic way, but no one can dispute their close connection.

No movie = no more disappointments

[Southern Red]

Exactly. But, it probably would've happened in s5 instead of McKeller. Interestingly, in S & R, Rodney's treatment of Keller in the jumper is akin to something he just scraped off his shoe (written by Gero).



I admit, I was surprised too. I'm not saying it would've worked (it could've, depending on who wrote it), i was just surprised. There was a prime opportunity for them to say something about sparky in GiTM, even if it was just a line at the end after Fran had walked through the gate, yet again nothing happened. And if I wasn't on the net, I wouldn't know what'd happened to Torri, or why Weir just vanished into the abyss.




I wish they'd mentioned that he came with them to Earth (on screen). I guess we didn't see much of Kanaan as the actor had another role within the show.



No movie = no more disappointments

Yet Gero also wrote Brainstorm. Another puzzlement.

I think not seeing Kanaan in EatG or even hearing about him was an oversight and another example of how out of touch TPTB were. Yet I was surprised that so many people thought Teyla would leave her family behind. JM did say he would be in the movie. Hopefully not just long enough to get killed off. LOL But again, I'm not losing sleep over what will likely never happen. I'm just enjoying living in the past. Sigh.

And now if someday there is a movie and they pair John up with someone else, it won't change a thing about Sparky. After all, we don't think he should spend forever alone. Do we?

[Scary Kitty]

*is weak*

*snickers*

And speaking of songs, I have this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNWmOtvkQkE to describe TPTW & TH/EW's relationship (there's another one that would be ideal, but there's a swear word in the title )

*snerks*

Given the canon they'd provided us I don't think so. Remember back in Progeny, when they flew the jumper out of the Replicator Atlantis? The Replicators apparently built jumpers that required the ATA gene to operate. Also, apparently these new jumpers can cloak too, but the replicators can't detect them when they are cloaked. Riiiiight.

I think it's something they could have touched on if Weir had stayed on during the season. Sadly this was not the case. Alternatively, they could have swiped a Replicator ship to escape

There's a very big problem with that argument though: why would the Replicators build jumpers of their own if they didn't have any way of operating them? They're just gonna leave them sit there in the docking bay gathering dust? That just sounds silly. It makes more sense to me that the nanites, being Ancient technology itself, would provide a sort of "master key" into other Ancient-created technology that would allow the Replicators (or a hybrid like Elizabeth) to use ATA-dependent technology like the jumpers. Or maybe the Replicators just hacked the jumper design so that anyone could use them and Sheppard ended up taking the pilot's seat out of habit.

Playing devils advocate, having her die in Adrift (which is what would've happened if TH hadn't agreed to do a few eps) would've been pretty lame. No doubt Carter would've arrived within that ep, fairly jarring IMO.

I think anyone who was captured wouldn't have been killed (on screen, within that ep) and would've suffered the same fate.

That said, it's one of those situations where you have to know what is going on behind the screen, otherwise the ending and explanation doesn't make sense (at least to me)

As I recall, it was never stated that Weir would've died in Adrift if Torri had decided not to return. For all we know, they could've simply have had Keller say that Weir was in critical condition, keep the rest of the team so distracted with saving the city so that there wasn't time for any sickbed scenes, and then when they reestablished contact with Earth, they could say that Weir was sent back to Earth for medical treatment off-screen, just like they did with Bates after The Siege.

I agree with that, but playing devils advocate again, what constitutes torture for a part replicator? I never really got a handle on them. When Fran says in GiTM that they activated the rest of the nanites, what does that mean and how does it actually make her all that different? The replicators actually seem to be fairly autonomous, all with individual 'feelings' and consciousness. Even with the nanites all active, she is still flesh and blood, so it's not like she could walk through a wall like Oberoth.

So what would they do? Waterboard her, or hook her up to a computer? It never seemed like something definable to me.

More mind games like we saw in Progeny and The Real World, but even more vicious. Repeated mind probes to "interrogate" her for information. Medical experimentation to see just how she functions as a human/Replicator hybrid, how much her nanites can do to keep her alive (for example,

Spoiler:

in my fic Restoration, there are flashbacks to Oberoth cutting off Elizabeth's leg and stabbing one of her eyes).

That sort of thing going on for months on end would be torture for anyone. And that's just for starters.

I agree, something vague would've been enough. But they started off the series with an attempt at ship (it was such a success that Teyla was impregnated by another man), so I don't see what their problem was here. Given that it seems they were destined to kill her off, it's not like it would've created any major headaches

*snorts* Frankly, given how quickly TPTW brought in the Replicators in Season 3 right after they started hinting at Weir being removed from her job by the IOA, and how quickly they wrapped up the Replicators after they'd disposed of Weir twice in Lifeline and TMC, it really looks like the only reason they brought in the Replicators was to get rid of Weir. Pretty petty, huh?

I'm definitely glad there won't be a movie and the books are not official canon. They can change things from here on out but they can't erase what is already canon. So, as I see it, we don't have one single thing in canon that we have to explain away, ignore, or that makes us have to come up with a convoluted illogical explanation for. John and Elizabeth's relationship may not have been canon in a romantic way, but no one can dispute their close connection.

LOL! Of course they were canon in a romantic way. But then, I subscribe to the 'Sparky as modern pop media example of courtly love in medieval chivalric literature' theory, so there you go. It's the whole 'love of one who is unattainable' thing again. And you can't get any more unattainable than being dead. Or, in Elizabeth's case, presumed dead. Checkmate, Sparky wins again.

I admit, I was surprised too. I'm not saying it would've worked (it could've, depending on who wrote it), i was just surprised. There was a prime opportunity for them to say something about sparky in GiTM, even if it was just a line at the end after Fran had walked through the gate, yet again nothing happened. And if I wasn't on the net, I wouldn't know what'd happened to Torri, or why Weir just vanished into the abyss.

There may not have been any line of dialogue, but the expression on John's face (thank you, Joe Flanigan!) said it all for me.

No movie = no more disappointments

Amen. If they ever did the movie, they'd totally screw it up anyway. Far better that we go without one.

Yet Gero also wrote Brainstorm. Another puzzlement.

I think not seeing Kanaan in EatG or even hearing about him was an oversight and another example of how out of touch TPTB were. Yet I was surprised that so many people thought Teyla would leave her family behind. JM did say he would be in the movie. Hopefully not just long enough to get killed off. LOL But again, I'm not losing sleep over what will likely never happen. I'm just enjoying living in the past. Sigh.

And now if someday there is a movie and they pair John up with someone else, it won't change a thing about Sparky. After all, we don't think he should spend forever alone. Do we?

Well, you know the old saying... 'What is past, is prologue.'

[Scary Kitty]

As an early Fluffy Thursday treat, I've got a fic rec for all you crazy Sparkies!

Bride of Pegasus, by rillarilla. John and Elizabeth are getting married. Hilarity ensues in the wake of the wedding planner's arrival in Atlantis.

Make sure you're sitting down and whatever you do, DON'T eat or drink anything while reading this fic, because you will spit it all over your computer screen when you start laughing your asses off! Enjoy!