Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[nephtys59]

You know, I don't like *perfect* characters.
I like when life tries them. Sometimes they learn from their mistakes, sometimes they don't.
I like when you discover some of their secrets, I like when the dark part of someone comes out and you didn't expect it.
I think that McKay was probably the one who got more in this sense, pity they didn't with Elizabeth and they did only a few times with John.

I like desperate situations (especially when I can get a partial happy ending). I think Season 4 was a REAL chance to have an exciting and heartbreaking storytelling, but no, TPTB screwed Elizabeth over and saved the city too early.

(BTW, same mistake different TPTB did with Star Trek Enterprise after the heartbreaking Season 3).

BSG is a real example of how you can write characters: we don't need all of them to be beautiful, perfect, healthy. If someone gets through a really hard situation, part of him/her changes, exactly how life changes us. One loses his temper, another one loses one leg or an eye, another one loses his soul. Battles leave scars, sometimes you move on and sometimes you don't.

I don't believe a man like Sheppard would have forgot so easily what happened to him in Conversion, for example. Or in Commond Ground. God, first he almost becomes a sort of bug and then his life is sucked by a Wraith! Show us insomnia, anger, frustration, ANYTHING to show us he hasn't forgotten (just list he didn't forget is friend in Afghanistan). But we get NOTHING.
We get a smiling and joking Sheppard, brand new like he never was *used*.
Same for other characters. That's another thing that killed SGA and, for crying out loud, they had such good opportunities in their hands to write it right, I still get angry.

[Falcon Horus]

1) Where are the Wraith numbers-wise when EATG occurs--how many are left around Pegasus--do they look like they're starting to feel the effects of war on them?

There's a shortage on Queens, hence why Todd needed Teyla to fake one.
And I believe there's a civil war going because of this. And with so much Wraith awake and in need of sustenance, the battle is on between the different factions.

2) How trustworthy is Todd at this point

They don't trust him at all... they just use him and keep him locked up and under guard at all times. Viceversa Todd doesn't trust them either, and just uses the expedition for his own means.

I could say they barely tolerate each other.

[nephtys59]

I could say they barely tolerate each other.

Everybody, especially Ronon, wondered why Sheppard spared Todd's life in Common Ground.
Was it because he was grateful for having his life back or was it because he hoped to have an ally in the future?
Sheppard never explained that and in the episodes to come, he always behaved like he never took that decision.

[Scary Kitty]

I like desperate situations (especially when I can get a partial happy ending). I think Season 4 was a REAL chance to have an exciting and heartbreaking storytelling, but no, TPTB screwed Elizabeth over and saved the city too early.

(BTW, same mistake different TPTB did with Star Trek Enterprise after the heartbreaking Season 3).

Of course, the difference there is that the producers of Enterprise have publicly admitted they screwed up and apologized to the fans for ruining the show (at least, Brannon Braga has). They got a lot of respect from me for doing so.

BSG is a real example of how you can write characters: we don't need all of them to be beautiful, perfect, healthy. If someone gets through a really hard situation, part of him/her changes, exactly how life changes us. One loses his temper, another one loses one leg or an eye, another one loses his soul. Battles leave scars, sometimes you move on and sometimes you don't.

I don't believe a man like Sheppard would have forgot so easily what happened to him in Conversion, for example. Or in Commond Ground. God, first he almost becomes a sort of bug and then his life is sucked by a Wraith! Show us insomnia, anger, frustration, ANYTHING to show us he hasn't forgotten (just list he didn't forget is friend in Afghanistan). But we get NOTHING.
We get a smiling and joking Sheppard, brand new like he never was *used*.
Same for other characters. That's another thing that killed SGA and, for crying out loud, they had such good opportunities in their hands to write it right, I still get angry.

Caprica seems to be continuing in BSG's footsteps with letting us see a realistic progression of changes as characters face adverstiy. I've certainly been enjoying it so far.

I can't stand the 'reset at the beginning of each episode' button used in SGA either. It's stupid! Of course these people are going to change if you run them through the wringer! Not only did the characters get used, frankly, so did the audience.

There's a shortage on Queens, hence why Todd needed Teyla to fake one.
And I believe there's a civil war going because of this. And with so much Wraith awake and in need of sustenance, the battle is on between the different factions.

Something else to consider is what's left of Michael's hybrids... Todd apparently knew a bit about Michael's activities, and I wonder what the other Wraith would do with them if their paths ever crossed? Kill them? Try to use them? Or would the hybrids try to continue their creator's work to wipe out the Wraith and the humans? This could get ugly.

They don't trust him at all... they just use him and keep him locked up and under guard at all times. Viceversa Todd doesn't trust them either, and just uses the expedition for his own means.

I could say they barely tolerate each other.

The quintessential 'frenemies.' They don't like each other, but sometimes they need each other and no doubt resent it.

[Scary Kitty]

Everybody, especially Ronon, wondered why Sheppard spared Todd's life in Common Ground.
Was it because he was grateful for having his life back or was it because he hoped to have an ally in the future?
Sheppard never explained that and in the episodes to come, he always behaved like he never took that decision.

Neither. It's because Sheppard is a man of honor who keeps his word. (at least, for everything except not leaving Elizabeth behind,. because TPTW wanted to screw her over.)

[Eri13]

Everybody, especially Ronon, wondered why Sheppard spared Todd's life in Common Ground. Was it because he was grateful for having his life back or was it because he hoped to have an ally in the future? Sheppard never explained that and in the episodes to come, he always behaved like he never took that decision.

Neither. It's because Sheppard is a man of honor who keeps his word. (at least, for everything except not leaving Elizabeth behind,. because TPTW wanted to screw her over.)

I agree with SK--he certainly wasn't looking for an ally. But he recognized Todd actually kept his word, despite being a Wraith, and John reciprocated.

I do think there's a little continuity with the decision with Todd. Every time John sees Todd in the episodes I remember, he looks like he has a bad taste in his mouth. I take that to mean he's not pleased with seeing him again and a part of him is probably thinking "I should have killed this guy when I had the chance." He doesn't walk around going 'hey, buddy, you're that wraith I saved!'

But yeah--stuff like Elizabeth's replicators, Teyla's disgust/concern over her Wraith gift, Ronon's immunity to Wraith feeding (talk about a failure of continuity) and feelings over the loss of Sateda should all have been a part of their character development. We got it, but only in episodes specifically focused on it, not as a sidebar progression element.

I do like John's periodic references to his mutation, though. I could definitely see what he did to people being something he was hung up on more than the actual mutation, and that IS skipped (like, for example, what he did to Teyla and Elizabeth. One small 'are we good' scene for Teyla, and nothing about Elizabeth almost being strangled to death.)

But the actual transformation is something I think he brushes off and he does poke fun at himself from time to time--probably the best line is in Tao of Rodney:

McKAY: One more time: mysterious energy pulse from a device created by the Ancients. I mean, who knows what kind of long-term effects I could be in for? I mean, there's gross mutation, giantism, invisibility

SHEPPARD: That would be cool. *I* turned into a bug.

[Eri13]

Everybody, especially Ronon, wondered why Sheppard spared Todd's life in Common Ground. Was it because he was grateful for having his life back or was it because he hoped to have an ally in the future? Sheppard never explained that and in the episodes to come, he always behaved like he never took that decision.

Neither. It's because Sheppard is a man of honor who keeps his word. (at least, for everything except not leaving Elizabeth behind,. because TPTW wanted to screw her over.)

I agree with SK--he certainly wasn't looking for an ally. But he recognized Todd actually kept his word, despite being a Wraith, and John reciprocated.

I do think there's a little continuity with the decision with Todd. Every time John sees Todd in the episodes I remember, he looks like he has a bad taste in his mouth. I take that to mean he's not pleased with seeing him again and a part of him is probably thinking "I should have killed this guy when I had the chance." He doesn't walk around going 'hey, buddy, you're that wraith I saved!'

But yeah--stuff like Elizabeth's replicators, Teyla's disgust/concern over her Wraith gift, Ronon's immunity to Wraith feeding (talk about a failure of continuity) and feelings over the loss of Sateda should all have been a part of their character development. We got it, but only in episodes specifically focused on it, not as a sidebar progression element.

I do like John's periodic references to his mutation, though. I could definitely see what he did to people being something he was hung up on more than the actual mutation, and that IS skipped (like, for example, what he did to Teyla and Elizabeth. One small 'are we good' scene for Teyla, and nothing about Elizabeth almost being strangled to death.)

But the actual transformation is something I think he brushes off and he does poke fun at himself from time to time--probably the best line is in Tao of Rodney:

McKAY: One more time: mysterious energy pulse from a device created by the Ancients. I mean, who knows what kind of long-term effects I could be in for? I mean, there's gross mutation, giantism, invisibility

SHEPPARD: That would be cool. *I* turned into a bug.

[Fionnait]

Caprica seems to be continuing in BSG's footsteps with letting us see a realistic progression of changes as characters face adverstiy. I've certainly been enjoying it so far.

I can't stand the 'reset at the beginning of each episode' button used in SGA either. It's stupid! Of course these people are going to change if you run them through the wringer! Not only did the characters get used, frankly, so did the audience.

On the other hand, a casual viewer, who never pays much attention except for in fight sequences (hello, bf) is confused by the extreme continuity of BSG. It's almost like watching one big story. (Which I thought was brilliant, but bf did not appreciate it. Stupid men.) But that may be bad for ratings.

[Scary Kitty]

I agree with SK--he certainly wasn't looking for an ally. But he recognized Todd actually kept his word, despite being a Wraith, and John reciprocated.

I do think there's a little continuity with the decision with Todd. Every time John sees Todd in the episodes I remember, he looks like he has a bad taste in his mouth. I take that to mean he's not pleased with seeing him again and a part of him is probably thinking "I should have killed this guy when I had the chance." He doesn't walk around going 'hey, buddy, you're that wraith I saved!'

*snickers* Sorry, but that last line just cracked me up!

But yeah--stuff like Elizabeth's replicators, Teyla's disgust/concern over her Wraith gift, Ronon's immunity to Wraith feeding (talk about a failure of continuity) and feelings over the loss of Sateda should all have been a part of their character development. We got it, but only in episodes specifically focused on it, not as a sidebar progression element.

The fact that we only get it in those episodes specifically focused on that story (or those that have some sort of tie-in, like the brief mention of Elizabeth in relation to the nanites during Miller's Crossing), imposes a disjointed air to the series as a whole. And given that traditionally, audiences focus on consistency in story and characters, that's a significant failure.

I do like John's periodic references to his mutation, though. I could definitely see what he did to people being something he was hung up on more than the actual mutation, and that IS skipped (like, for example, what he did to Teyla and Elizabeth. One small 'are we good' scene for Teyla, and nothing about Elizabeth almost being strangled to death.)

But the actual transformation is something I think he brushes off and he does poke fun at himself from time to time--probably the best line is in Tao of Rodney:

McKAY: One more time: mysterious energy pulse from a device created by the Ancients. I mean, who knows what kind of long-term effects I could be in for? I mean, there's gross mutation, giantism, invisibility

SHEPPARD: That would be cool. *I* turned into a bug.

I'd say that poking fun at himself thing is certainly his way of trying to cope without really coping, if you know what I mean. One more in a long line of missteps that haunts him.

[Scary Kitty]

On the other hand, a casual viewer, who never pays much attention except for in fight sequences (hello, bf) is confused by the extreme continuity of BSG. It's almost like watching one big story. (Which I thought was brilliant, but bf did not appreciate it. Stupid men.) But that may be bad for ratings.

True, though it didn't seem to hurt BSG all that much.

[Fionnait]

True, though it didn't seem to hurt BSG all that much.

Well, they did have lots of explosions to make up for it. *rolls eyes*
Maybe they would have made more than 4 seasons if they had been less brilliant?

[Erin87]

That's why I CAN'T sigh contendedly! *bangs fist*

That dialogue goes:

Sheppard: "It's good to hear your voice."
Weir: "Yeah, it's good to hear!"

Weir's line was supposed to read "Yeah, it's good to hear you too!" But if you listen to Gero's commentary, he tells us that the 'you too' was the last line on that teleplay page, and it got dropped by accident somewhere between writing and editing by whoever was copying the script. So when Torri got it, the 'you too' was gone, so she read "Yeah, it's good to hear" instead of "Yeah, it's good to hear you too!".

Everybody's copy was like that, presumably, so nobody knew the difference, and since writers don't attend filming, Gero didn't know. Of course, once the mistake was realized, there was no way to reshoot or alter because 1) that shoot was impossibly hard because of the set-up to create the storm, so no reshoots 2) it had been shot without mikes, everything was ADR after-the-fact, so Torri had to match her lips and how she read the lines.

So Erika is very sad, because an already good line could have been even greater!!

Nooooo!!! I'd never heard that before! Oh, the wonderfulness that could have been if they'd managed to keep it!

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday!

*joins Eri in sporking the copy boy* We will not have silly mistakes like that in SS6, that's for sure!

I think that's the problem with me and SGU-- the characters aren't appealing to me at all, and the story (or rather, lack thereof) hasn't been able to fill in the gap, so I haven't stuck around. By contrast, SGA had me hooked from Rising, both by characters and story. We certainly didn't get as much character development on SGA as there's been in SGU, but in a sense, the mystery about characters like Sheppard and Ronon appeals to me. It's like a treasure hunt to find those little nuggets of information.

I need to rewatch EatG, or at least go over the transcript. I got the impression that things were getting desperate for them, hence Todd putting that plan in motion and then getting backstabbed by one of his underlings.

The moments between Teyla and Kanaan are another good example; we didn't see many of them, but what we did see made it pretty clear that there was a powerful connection between them. It was perhaps quieter and more private than other pairings, but that also helps to show us how private a character Teyla is.


Agreed. Todd's been too useful to Atlantis, even when things have sometimes gone pear-shaped, to kill him off now, and I think John recognizes that even though he's still concerned about the potential security nightmare.

Yeah. John still doesn't trust Todd as far as he can throw him, but Todd has come through for Atlantis several times since that little fiasco with the Daedalus in 'The Lost Tribe' so he actually does have a small amount of credibility.
Kind of like in EATG when Todd reminds him of what happened in 'Infection':

(A Wraith shuttle is on the ground in the distance. It clearly crash landed there and smoke is still rising from it.)

SHEPPARD: Yeah. Nice landing(!)

TODD (moving back into the centre of the screen): Don't be so critical, Sheppard. It wasn't long ago my flying skills saved the lives of both you and your companions. It wasn't pilot error – I was attacked by one of my underlings.

And then for how John feels there's this scene:

SHEPPARD: Here's the problem: every time we get involved with you, I feel like I'm walking around with a live grenade in my pocket, just waitin' for it to all go wrong for that one thing you forgot to mention.

TODD: I assure you, in this case ...

SHEPPARD (interrupting): Save it. Been down this road before.

(He turns to leave the room.)

TODD: If you really feel that way, why would you let me go after our last encounter?

SHEPPARD (turning back): We had a deal and you kept up your end of the bargain – and to be honest, I didn't think you'd live.

TODD: Ahhh.

SHEPPARD: If I find out you're playin' us, I'm not gonna wait for authorisation, there isn't gonna be any paperwork – I'm just gonna kill ya.


But of course by now John's promised to kill him about a dozen times and it hasn't happened yet, so...

Bring on the AUs!

Yeah!

And it's true about the characters being the best part of the show. If it wasn't for them, I highly doubt I would have stayed this fanatic about Stargate for this long. Because this is the longest kick I've ever been on - well over a year now - and it's all due to the characters (and mostly SPARKY!! )

[Scary Kitty]

Well, they did have lots of explosions to make up for it. *rolls eyes*
Maybe they would have made more than 4 seasons if they had been less brilliant?

*snickers* The thing with BSG, though, was that it was a wartime story. Of course there'd be lots of explosions. I'd think they'd have to end the story sooner rather than later, simply to keep from going around and around in circles with the conflict.

[Fionnait]

*snickers* The thing with BSG, though, was that it was a wartime story. Of course there'd be lots of explosions. I'd think they'd have to end the story sooner rather than later, simply to keep from going around and around in circles with the conflict.

I do prefer shorter and good to drawn out without good ideas in the end... It's not that I dislike explosions. I just don't endorse skipping the scenes where "they are just talking" in order to see the next one *g*

[Scary Kitty]

Yeah!

And it's true about the characters being the best part of the show. If it wasn't for them, I highly doubt I would have stayed this fanatic about Stargate for this long. Because this is the longest kick I've ever been on - well over a year now - and it's all due to the characters (and mostly SPARKY!! )

Same here. What's not to love about Sparky? They brought all of us together, didn't they?

I do prefer shorter and good to drawn out without good ideas in the end... It's not that I dislike explosions. I just don't endorse skipping the scenes where "they are just talking" in order to see the next one *g*

True, dat. Both is better!