Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Intermission:
I think I’ll post this everywhere: Jace Hall says:
“I think NBC will be casting Rockford soon. If you want #JoeRockford you better tell NBC and the producers of the show. Make noise! More FLAN”

Contact page for NBC, not sure if it’s the right place, but worth a shot:
http://www.nbc.com/contact/general/?__status=1

And I also got this message from Jace on Facebook. We really need to keep this up.

I think NBC is going to try to cast the show really soon. If all the FLanigan fans make enough noise and contact the production and NBC we may see Flanigan on tv soon. It's up to the fans really..."


Now to go back and reply to that wonderful discussion I missed last night.

[Southern Red]

Aww, Southern Red, that sucks about your trip. That just sucks!



If I were watching were for plots, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did. Sure, the Stargate writers had some brilliant ideas, but they often didn't extend them as far as I'd like them to. Not to mention that those mediocre plot ideas FAR outnumber the brilliant ones ... Like you, I watched for the characters and their interactions with one another.

The subject of plot ideas makes me think of Farscape. My husband and I are rewatching and have just begun S2. The similarities to SGA plots are so obvious it's laughable. In fact yesterday we watched "Crackers Don't Matter" and my husband said, "So, which episode of Atlantis did that remind you of?" Well, duh. They had bits of TLG (John and Aeryn were trying to kill each other.) and maybe even bits of Doppelganger and TR with the paranoia theme. "Taking the Stone" was Childhood's End right down to the hairdos. "A Bug's Life" was Doppelganger. "Jeremiah Crichton" is Epiphany right down to the hippies. And I could go on. Just go to IMDB and read some of the ep descriptions. It's uncanny.

But I'm not necessarily saying it was deliberate because these are the basic plots we see in all Sci Fi shows. I'm sure you could see some BSG ideas in there too. My point is that Farscape did it so very much better and usually took it way further. Take "Taking the Stone" for example with the hugely pregnant girl giving birth and the guy falling to his death. We got to actually see how the society was squicky beyond words. In CE all they did was paint their faces and act cranky. There should have been babies and violence. And of course, as soon as Sheppard waltzed in he became the big damn hero and they willingly went along with the new order of things. That bunch on Farscape wasn't quite so sane. The SGA writers never crossed the line into really good drama.

I get what you mean, SR, and the example you provided of Ronon at Weir's bedside in "Adrift" is an excellent example. However, I am equally perplexed when people say that the characters in Atlantis were almost completely fleshed out. Though I "know" the characters and can relate to them on a basic level, I feel that the TPTB did not put much effort into fleshing out the characters as real people. It seems that every time they dipped their toes in the metaphorical water, they pulled out. Touching the surface as necessary, but never getting as deep as many other shows do. (Sheppard may be the one exception here).

*points to last part of above* I don't even think Sheppard was very well fleshed out. The mystery remained too deep and his persona seemed to shift. Is he happy go lucky? Is he faking it? Is he a ladies' man? Is he an introspective loner? Is he special ops trained? Can he really fly all those aircraft and how did he get all that training? Who does he love? and on and on

I suspect they wrote comic book characters on purpose but even Superman had more depth than most of them. If JF didn't make all the faces, John would have been just another empty flightsuit.

I'd say that if it was not for the brilliant casting of the leads, the show would seriously falter. I don't think the writing on Stargate is as top-notch as it is on shows like BSG or Lost (shows I occasionally catch a glimpse of and hope to see in full sometime). It simply can't stand on it's own as a brilliant script half the time. But the actors take it and do their thing.

And once again I point above. Same with DH. He gave Rodney depth and made most of us like him even when he was whining. I liked him more because John and Elizabeth liked him I think. So it depends on who you relate to I guess. I sense uncertainty in myself here. LOL I'm not sure about the writing on BSG. Everybody seems to think it was great but I never could get into the show. Lost I loved in S1, liked in S2 and rapidly lost interest thereafter. So I think even great writing has it's problem areas. Lost, IMHO, is bogged down by a complicated plot and unlikeable characters. Now a show like NCIS which is simple straightforward crime drama to me has brilliant characterization and consistently good writing. It doesn't have to be emmy winning stuff every week. Just have continuity and entertain me. And make me like these people, dammit.

I feel there's something missing as well, and the two things that come to my mind are a) the "reset button" at the end of each episode and b) the writers do not go out of their as often as I'd like to develop the characters as people. Because, you know, big spaceship battles are so much more exciting (snerk). But they can only sustain you for so long.

But they were so proud of those battles. I love the way on the commentaries they talk about special effects and lights and camera angles ad nauseam but seldom mention the actual story. That shows you where their focus lies.



<snippage for space>

I don't have a problem with happy endings. Unfortunately, Atlantis is not a fairy tale, and any happy ending should be compromised by their experiences. You don't come out of a situation like that as the same person you were before. So say the SGA writers had truly gone along a darker road, and had ended the show in a manner organic to what had happened. It might've not been a Disneyfied result at the end. It would probably be bittersweet. (I'll admit that the bittersweet ending is my favourite; not too saccarine, but not too bitter, either.)

I would prefer an honest but bittersweet, uncertain, or even grim conclusion to Stargate Atlantis than the phony, repeated heroics or Disneyfied sugar of "Enemy at the Gate".

I'd also like to leave a memo (to the SGA writers) that tragedy does not mean better story. It has to be well-executed, too. So, in the end ... I'm not saying that SGA should equal shows like BSG in terms of the degree of seriousness. Disney and BSG are, like, antithetical There is a wide spectrum imbetween, though ... and on that scale, SGA was a little too unrealistically Disney (in my opinion).



Scary Kitty, did you read my recent post in the S5 Critique topic? This was one of my main criticisms, the "reset button" routine. I think part of it was that the writers wanted to be able to change the order in which the episodes aired (remember the changing episode schedules?), and I think it severely handicapped SGA. There's no real lasting impact, emotion, or development when things are reset at the start of the next episode.

Not to mention that it makes the show look like a mess. It's not cohesive. You don't get the sense that each episode belongs to a single narrative of the expedition of Atlantis (as it should be). It just feels fragmented because there is no single "big picture".



Oddly enough, it seems the large majority of successful and popular dramatic television shows in the last five years have been serialized: Lost, BSG, 24, Alias, FlashForward, just to name a few. It's what many viewers seem to prefer (including myself). SGA (and SG1, at least in it's later years) seem like they should be serialized in the same vein (and at times pretend to be). Instead, they're run in the same fashion as more episodic shows like Castle. The thing is, that format works for Castle and it feels right for that show. But it just doesn't sit right for SGA.

SGA could have several advantages if it had a serialized format (that was done right, of course). You can take advantages of cool mythologies and ongoing mysteries. Character development would have to carry to the next episode. The only disadvantage is that you get less new viewers hopping on in the fray. I know fans of Lost joke that if you miss so much as 30 seconds from an episode you will be lost. And perhaps this is what SG producers are afraid of.

The reset button was indeed their downfall. They said all along that they did it deliberately and it was a big mistake. It worked better early on but got ridiculous around the time of Carson's death when in the very next episode we were back to the banter and never mentioned him. They didn't need to weep and grieve every minute but just a mention by each of them would have been nice. Elizabeth was mentioned occasionally but the lack of impact on Rodney was particularly grating to me. He writes a 500 page book about her and then a few months later is all bouncy and happy about the possibility of getting her job. And don't even get me started on how easily they all accepted Carter. Especially John. He should have been a bit more hard to deal with in respect to her and they could have done it without him being insubordinate. In fact I would love to have seen her threaten to court martial him on occasion. Ronon was the only one that responded appropriately to her taking over.

SGA didn't even need to be serialized the same way things like LOST BSG or Alias were(are). And to be honest, as much as I love serialized shows, I'm not certain I'd want it to be. But things like McKay being sad about Elizabeth the VERY NEXT EPISODE after he said he'd be sad about Elizabeth if he didn't have work to do, would have helped.

As far as the show itself goes. I think that despite the lack of direction that seemed to appear into the show at times, the whole thing turned out fairly great. It's probably the show that most captured my imagination in the last few years. The show is interesting to talk about because over the course of the entire 5 year run, in my opinion the writers had some of their best AND worst work in it. This, I feel, increased in the fourth season but was and even more most overwhelming in the fifth. So it's really not possible, in my view,to make any sort of blanket statements about being simply good and bad.

I think they got bogged down by the lack of serialization in S4 when they tried to do Teyla's big dark arc. All they ended up doing was turning out the lights and calling it a dark arc. And if they mix all those eps up in syndication it won't make a lick of sense to anybody.

S5 again was such a muddled mess they can pretty much show them in any order. LOL

Great!!!
I feel like I need to make my trailer and banner too!
Where do I get a Sparky Season 6 logo?

Erin did a bunch of them. Maybe she'd be willing to repost them.

[Eri13]

Okay folks - next shindig -

What: Friday Food
When: This Friday at lunch
Where: Sparky Season 6 cafeteria
Who: Sparky Season 6 cast, crew, and staff

Everyone bring your favorite appetizer(s) and a drink to share!

I'm bringing egg rolls, crab rangoon and hmmmmmm some sort of vodka drink.....how about ketel one vodka, pomengranate syrup and lemonade? It's super yummy! Yah, I know, vodka doesn't really go with chinese appetizers, but I really love vodka, so there.

Mmmm. I'll bring a dessert--maybe cupcakes, since I have some mix and frosting left over. I'll also bring margaritas because we mix really good ones.

Just wanted to post some Joe news:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207958
and
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post11207999
Jace has a FaceBook Page in addition to his Twitter where he mentions Joe:
http://www.facebook.com/JaceHallShow?ref=nf

OH YAYS! GO JOE! I hope he gets it. I'd watch.

^snip for space

Scary Kitty, did you read my recent post in the S5 Critique topic? This was one of my main criticisms, the "reset button" routine. I think part of it was that the writers wanted to be able to change the order in which the episodes aired (remember the changing episode schedules?), and I think it severely handicapped SGA. There's no real lasting impact, emotion, or development when things are reset at the start of the next episode.

Not to mention that it makes the show look like a mess. It's not cohesive. You don't get the sense that each episode belongs to a single narrative of the expedition of Atlantis (as it should be). It just feels fragmented because there is no single "big picture".

Oddly enough, it seems the large majority of successful and popular dramatic television shows in the last five years have been serialized: Lost, BSG, 24, Alias, FlashForward, just to name a few. It's what many viewers seem to prefer (including myself). SGA (and SG1, at least in it's later years) seem like they should be serialized in the same vein (and at times pretend to be). Instead, they're run in the same fashion as more episodic shows like Castle. The thing is, that format works for Castle and it feels right for that show. But it just doesn't sit right for SGA.

SGA could have several advantages if it had a serialized format (that was done right, of course). You can take advantages of cool mythologies and ongoing mysteries. Character development would have to carry to the next episode. The only disadvantage is that you get less new viewers hopping on in the fray. I know fans of Lost joke that if you miss so much as 30 seconds from an episode you will be lost. And perhaps this is what SG producers are afraid of.

SGA didn't even need to be serialized the same way things like LOST BSG or Alias were(are). And to be honest, as much as I love serialized shows, I'm not certain I'd want it to be. But things like McKay being sad about Elizabeth the VERY NEXT EPISODE after he said he'd be sad about Elizabeth if he didn't have work to do, would have helped.

As far as the show itself goes. I think that despite the lack of direction that seemed to appear into the show at times, the whole thing turned out fairly great. It's probably the show that most captured my imagination in the last few years. The show is interesting to talk about because over the course of the entire 5 year run, in my opinion the writers had some of their best AND worst work in it. This, I feel, increased in the fourth season but was and even more most overwhelming in the fifth. So it's really not possible, in my view,to make any sort of blanket statements about being simply good and bad.

Reiko, brilliant post and you've been greened!

I would agree you can't make a blanket post about 'good or bad', and I very rarely universally dismiss something, because most things have too many factors to just generally say 'bad'. SGA, for me, wins with the characters. Last night, watching the first five minutes of "The Defiant One" I was once again reminded why I love John so much. Would I turn around and say his show is bad? No.

But there are elements of the show that were bad or just downright frustrating. I can't say it turned out fairly great for me, because on a comparative scale of sci-fi programming, I find it was a show written to be 'fun', not written to be 'brilliant'. Lost or Firefly--those are shows where the writers take pains to be thought-provoking with their episodes and their characters. SGA had fun storytelling with characters that make me want to come back, no matter the implausibility. Kinda like Warehouse 13, or Doctor Who.

Some people on this forum love to proclaim Seasons 4 and 5 to be the best of the series. I've never agreed with that. A major MAJOR shift in these character's lives occurred starting with Sunday, and with the possible exception of John, it was business as usual on Atlantis, at least from the first 3/4 of S4 I saw. Yes, the lights on the set went dimmer, and the lens filters got a little darker, but character wise? Where was, as you say, Rodney being sad about Elizabeth? It was stuff like the ending scene of BAMSR, where Rodney wipes Asuras out of the database, that really make me angry at the writers. Why is SGA not like Firefly? Because at a moment when the show should have been recalling how this one little planet changed the whole course of its existence, here are Rodney and John, joking about this planet being a pain in the *ss and punching it out of existence like they're playing Space Invaders. Like they completely forgot Elizabeth died there. She died there. Four months earlier. And I'm supposed to consider that episode great because the space battle was cool?

Sorry. I'm not that type of fan. That scene should not have been funny. That scene should have reflected the pain and difficulty they've experienced with Asuras since they found it in Progeny. That's what it meant to Atlantis. It changed their entire world. Of the sacrifice Elizabeth made for them and how they've hopefully justified that sacrifice a little. A good show would have recognized that. SGA reduced it to a cheap laugh.

For me, Season 4 failed not because it didn't have the ability to have great stories--individually, some of them had good depth--but because on a whole, I just didn't believe it. In Season 1, despite the absolute hammy nature of some of those plots, everything felt equal. I felt like they were struggling week to week over being cut off from Earth. When Elizabeth says to Rodney and John in TDO 'we can't come get you for12 hours' you feel the danger they're in and you mentally headsmack them because you know they're being a little stupid insisting they explore the Wraith signal. In Season 2, you feel the danger of the Wraith as a constant and persistent threat. Season 3 is where this starts to break down, because the Wraith were downplayed and the replicators brought up, but never brought up enough to make you look over your shoulder for them until they showed up.

Season 4 brought everything crashing down, and by the end of it you kinda went "HUHWHA?" at what the h*ll was going on. Are the Wraith still dangerous? Yes? No? Maybe? Is Atlantis still trying to hide itself? Who knows because everybody but the Wraith know where they are. Are the Replicators still a threat? Yes? Okay, we'll destroy them. Oh, wait. We didn't destroy them because they're on earth. And, oh yeah, there's a contingent floating around with Weir at the helm. And Michael's still out there. And we can't find the Athosians. Maybe they're TOGETHER! And oh, yeah, Teyla's pregnant too by her best friend from childhood we never met. And somehow the medical doctor is not doing really medically things, but is instead getting herself trapped everywhere. And though Sam was amazing in SG-1, she apparently has a lot of vacation time built up because she doesn't actually make decisions on Atlantis unless Earth and the SGC is involved.

Season 4 just didn't sell me. I didn't see the brilliance. All I saw was darker sets, an attempt at darker storytelling, and a massive fail because they couldn't figure out how to tie it all together. People's emotions were screwy. And that happens in grief, but here, it wasn't grief, but poor writing. In the center of all this muddle, they had the opportunity to show human emotion over the loss of two great friends, and point out that perhaps all this chaos of feeling and doing and being was because, as human beings, we don't handle grief and change well. But I didn't feel they did that. I didn't feel Elizabeth or Carson's loss perceptibly in anyone but John. And that, for me, was the icing on the cake for why I stopped watching.

Maybe in my watch of S5 I'll find something redeeming in it, but right now, I just can't. It's disappointing to me, with such great characters and such FUN plots, that it all went haywire.

[Eri13]

Love the beds... ...There's potential.

Now, please excuse me while I go yell at Sony Vegas Moviestudio for crashing when I try to trim First Strike.

See, even the software agrees that one shouldn't have happened. Period.

Edit: *cue several minutes later* I gave up on feeding First Strike to the trimmer and instead took one of my own vids and trimmed the piece I needed from there. *sigh*

Anyway... I'm done with feeding the vid-bunny that buzzed around my ears all day. And you have no idea how annoying it is when you're at work, and that bunny's there. And you write down in between work what the vid's gonna be like ... and forget the piece of paper when it's time to go home. *facepalm*

But anyway... done, and I'll leave it up to you to discover what I just spent two hours on thanks to Sony Vegas crashing several times...

This was awesome! YAYS!

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

SGA didn't even need to be serialized the same way things like LOST BSG or Alias were(are). And to be honest, as much as I love serialized shows, I'm not certain I'd want it to be. But things like McKay being sad about Elizabeth the VERY NEXT EPISODE after he said he'd be sad about Elizabeth if he didn't have work to do, would have helped.

As far as the show itself goes. I think that despite the lack of direction that seemed to appear into the show at times, the whole thing turned out fairly great. It's probably the show that most captured my imagination in the last few years. The show is interesting to talk about because over the course of the entire 5 year run, in my opinion the writers had some of their best AND worst work in it. This, I feel, increased in the fourth season but was and even more most overwhelming in the fifth. So it's really not possible, in my view,to make any sort of blanket statements about being simply good and bad.

I'd have to disagree. Atlantis, as a whole, wasn't great. The characters were great. Season 1 was great. Seasons 2 and 3 were pretty good. Seasons 4 and 5 were an incoherent mess that couldn't decide what it wanted to be, trying too hard to be too many things for too many viewers, couldn't consistently stick to the continuity established in the first three seasons to save its life, and of course, all the dangling storylines at the end of Season 5 remain unresolved to this day and likely will remain so. Certainly, there were great moments scattered throughout the series. However, taken in its entirety, Atlantis just doesn't stack up to other genre shows like Babylon 5, Farscape, BSG, and Alias. Even Smallville, with all it's wacky-at-times stories, is consistently better.

Atlantis did need to be serialized, as you just can't do the kind of arc-driven stories they were trying to play with properly without that kind of overall structure. Indeed, you pointed out a perfect example of why it was needed, in how McKay didn't act sad about Elizabeth in episodes following her loss. The audience needs to see continuity. They need to see that progression in the characters from episode to episode.

*points to last part of above* I don't even think Sheppard was very well fleshed out. The mystery remained too deep and his persona seemed to shift. Is he happy go lucky? Is he faking it? Is he a ladies' man? Is he an introspective loner? Is he special ops trained? Can he really fly all those aircraft and how did he get all that training? Who does he love? and on and on

I suspect they wrote comic book characters on purpose but even Superman had more depth than most of them. If JF didn't make all the faces, John would have been just another empty flightsuit.

*snorts* And at times, John still was an empty flightsuit even with Joe's faces. Trio, Brain Storm, I'm looking at you.

The reset button was indeed their downfall. They said all along that they did it deliberately and it was a big mistake. It worked better early on but got ridiculous around the time of Carson's death when in the very next episode we were back to the banter and never mentioned him. They didn't need to weep and grieve every minute but just a mention by each of them would have been nice. Elizabeth was mentioned occasionally but the lack of impact on Rodney was particularly grating to me. He writes a 500 page book about her and then a few months later is all bouncy and happy about the possibility of getting her job. And don't even get me started on how easily they all accepted Carter. Especially John. He should have been a bit more hard to deal with in respect to her and they could have done it without him being insubordinate. In fact I would love to have seen her threaten to court martial him on occasion. Ronon was the only one that responded appropriately to her taking over.

You know, I'm still pissed off that no one ever bothered to mention how Carter railroaded Weir while she was in charge at Stargate Command, and how downright ironic it was that now it was Carter who was going to be sitting in Weir's office. And her 'sympathy' fell pretty darn flat; the fact that she didn't even make a veiled reference to Weir in her taking command speech in Reunion made me feel as though Carter was laughing inside that she'd finally gotten to truly stick it to Weir for replacing Hammond in Lost City and her decisions in New Order. Definitely turned me off to Carter, and I used to like her on SG-1!

Reiko, brilliant post and you've been greened!

I would agree you can't make a blanket post about 'good or bad', and I very rarely universally dismiss something, because most things have too many factors to just generally say 'bad'. SGA, for me, wins with the characters. Last night, watching the first five minutes of "The Defiant One" I was once again reminded why I love John so much. Would I turn around and say his show is bad? No.

But there are elements of the show that were bad or just downright frustrating. I can't say it turned out fairly great for me, because on a comparative scale of sci-fi programming, I find it was a show written to be 'fun', not written to be 'brilliant'. Lost or Firefly--those are shows where the writers take pains to be thought-provoking with their episodes and their characters. SGA had fun storytelling with characters that make me want to come back, no matter the implausibility. Kinda like Warehouse 13, or Doctor Who.

Some people on this forum love to proclaim Seasons 4 and 5 to be the best of the series. I've never agreed with that. A major MAJOR shift in these character's lives occurred starting with Sunday, and with the possible exception of John, it was business as usual on Atlantis, at least from the first 3/4 of S4 I saw. Yes, the lights on the set went dimmer, and the lens filters got a little darker, but character wise? Where was, as you say, Rodney being sad about Elizabeth? It was stuff like the ending scene of BAMSR, where Rodney wipes Asuras out of the database, that really make me angry at the writers. Why is SGA not like Firefly? Because at a moment when the show should have been recalling how this one little planet changed the whole course of its existence, here are Rodney and John, joking about this planet being a pain in the *ss and punching it out of existence like they're playing Space Invaders. Like they completely forgot Elizabeth died there. She died there. Four months earlier. And I'm supposed to consider that episode great because the space battle was cool?

Sorry. I'm not that type of fan. That scene should not have been funny. That scene should have reflected the pain and difficulty they've experienced with Asuras since they found it in Progeny. That's what it meant to Atlantis. It changed their entire world. Of the sacrifice Elizabeth made for them and how they've hopefully justified that sacrifice a little. A good show would have recognized that. SGA reduced it to a cheap laugh.

For me, Season 4 failed not because it didn't have the ability to have great stories--individually, some of them had good depth--but because on a whole, I just didn't believe it. In Season 1, despite the absolute hammy nature of some of those plots, everything felt equal. I felt like they were struggling week to week over being cut off from Earth. When Elizabeth says to Rodney and John in TDO 'we can't come get you for12 hours' you feel the danger they're in and you mentally headsmack them because you know they're being a little stupid insisting they explore the Wraith signal. In Season 2, you feel the danger of the Wraith as a constant and persistent threat. Season 3 is where this starts to break down, because the Wraith were downplayed and the replicators brought up, but never brought up enough to make you look over your shoulder for them until they showed up.

Season 4 brought everything crashing down, and by the end of it you kinda went "HUHWHA?" at what the h*ll was going on. Are the Wraith still dangerous? Yes? No? Maybe? Is Atlantis still trying to hide itself? Who knows because everybody but the Wraith know where they are. Are the Replicators still a threat? Yes? Okay, we'll destroy them. Oh, wait. We didn't destroy them because they're on earth. And, oh yeah, there's a contingent floating around with Weir at the helm. And Michael's still out there. And we can't find the Athosians. Maybe they're TOGETHER! And oh, yeah, Teyla's pregnant too by her best friend from childhood we never met. And somehow the medical doctor is not doing really medically things, but is instead getting herself trapped everywhere. And though Sam was amazing in SG-1, she apparently has a lot of vacation time built up because she doesn't actually make decisions on Atlantis unless Earth and the SGC is involved.

Season 4 just didn't sell me. I didn't see the brilliance. All I saw was darker sets, an attempt at darker storytelling, and a massive fail because they couldn't figure out how to tie it all together. People's emotions were screwy. And that happens in grief, but here, it wasn't grief, but poor writing. In the center of all this muddle, they had the opportunity to show human emotion over the loss of two great friends, and point out that perhaps all this chaos of feeling and doing and being was because, as human beings, we don't handle grief and change well. But I didn't feel they did that. I didn't feel Elizabeth or Carson's loss perceptibly in anyone but John. And that, for me, was the icing on the cake for why I stopped watching.

Maybe in my watch of S5 I'll find something redeeming in it, but right now, I just can't. It's disappointing to me, with such great characters and such FUN plots, that it all went haywire.

*bows in worship* Eri, that was brilliant! I'd green you if I could, but the board won't let me.

I think your last line sums up how I feel about everything. It's like I've said before; I love Atlantis for what it could have been, instead of the mess it became. I look at Sheppard and Weir and see how they could have been like Babylon 5's Sheridan and Delenn, a pairing of powerful equals who greatly respect each other and don't have to undermine themselves to find a compromise when it's needed. I see how the Wraith could have been like the Shadows, a scary-as-hell enemy with a goal that is utterly frightening in its simplicity. I see how the Genii could have been like the Centauri, a people out to regain former glories at any cost, and possibly falling into a darkness they might not escape because of it. I look at all those things, and wonder what Atlantis might have been like if the producers and writers had been united in balancing the humor with the drama, in not shying away from serious subjects that should be taken to their logical end. Would Atlantis still be on the air today if they had? We'll never know. And for that, I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or simply shake my head in disgust.

[nephtys59]

Farscape, oh yes I loved it for many reasons!
The Chrichton's line I like the most is when Aeryn protests that being a Peacekeeper is her whole life, and he tells her simply, "You can be more."
I was sold

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!



I'd have to disagree. Atlantis, as a whole, wasn't great. The characters were great. Season 1 was great. Seasons 2 and 3 were pretty good. Seasons 4 and 5 were an incoherent mess that couldn't decide what it wanted to be, trying too hard to be too many things for too many viewers, couldn't consistently stick to the continuity established in the first three seasons to save its life, and of course, all the dangling storylines at the end of Season 5 remain unresolved to this day and likely will remain so. Certainly, there were great moments scattered throughout the series. However, taken in its entirety, Atlantis just doesn't stack up to other genre shows like Babylon 5, Farscape, BSG, and Alias. Even Smallville, with all it's wacky-at-times stories, is consistently better.

Atlantis did need to be serialized, as you just can't do the kind of arc-driven stories they were trying to play with properly without that kind of overall structure. Indeed, you pointed out a perfect example of why it was needed, in how McKay didn't act sad about Elizabeth in episodes following her loss. The audience needs to see continuity. They need to see that progression in the characters from episode to episode.



*snorts* And at times, John still was an empty flightsuit even with Joe's faces. Trio, Brain Storm, I'm looking at you.



You know, I'm still pissed off that no one ever bothered to mention how Carter railroaded Weir while she was in charge at Stargate Command, and how downright ironic it was that now it was Carter who was going to be sitting in Weir's office. And her 'sympathy' fell pretty darn flat; the fact that she didn't even make a veiled reference to Weir in her taking command speech in Reunion made me feel as though Carter was laughing inside that she'd finally gotten to truly stick it to Weir for replacing Hammond in Lost City and her decisions in New Order. Definitely turned me off to Carter, and I used to like her on SG-1!



*bows in worship* Eri, that was brilliant! I'd green you if I could, but the board won't let me.

I think your last line sums up how I feel about everything. It's like I've said before; I love Atlantis for what it could have been, instead of the mess it became. I look at Sheppard and Weir and see how they could have been like Babylon 5's Sheridan and Delenn, a pairing of powerful equals who greatly respect each other and don't have to undermine themselves to find a compromise when it's needed. I see how the Wraith could have been like the Shadows, a scary-as-hell enemy with a goal that is utterly frightening in its simplicity. I see how the Genii could have been like the Centauri, a people out to regain former glories at any cost, and possibly falling into a darkness they might not escape because of it. I look at all those things, and wonder what Atlantis might have been like if the producers and writers had been united in balancing the humor with the drama, in not shying away from serious subjects that should be taken to their logical end. Would Atlantis still be on the air today if they had? We'll never know. And for that, I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or simply shake my head in disgust.

Don't worry I greened Eri for you. That was simply brilliant and I can't add a thing. You know a lot of postmortem analysis is going on all over the general threads and I've seen a number of rants about how frustrated some viewers are. I think you both and Reiko should add these thoughts because the views are different from the others. Rants are good when they are coherent and these are.

And something OT.

Spoiler:

I had mentioned earlier about my friend who has breast cancer. She had her surgery yesterday, mastectomy and reconstruction, and is doing well. They had a friend with a 4 wheel drive who got them to the hospital. Her husband says she hopes to come home on Sat. Thanks for all the prayers, etc.

[Eri13]

Don't worry I greened Eri for you. That was simply brilliant and I can't add a thing. You know a lot of postmortem analysis is going on all over the general threads and I've seen a number of rants about how frustrated some viewers are. I think you both and Reiko should add these thoughts because the views are different from the others. Rants are good when they are coherent and these are.

And something OT.

Spoiler:

I had mentioned earlier about my friend who has breast cancer. She had her surgery yesterday, mastectomy and reconstruction, and is doing well. They had a friend with a 4 wheel drive who got them to the hospital. Her husband says she hopes to come home on Sat. Thanks for all the prayers, etc.

Well, thank you both. I attempted to green you both as well for your posts but the forum won't let me.

If I ever feel like wandering out of the safety of the Sparky thread, I might. Otherwise people are welcome to copy and paste. I'm tired of the infighting even if it's coherent.

I really replied because

Spoiler:

That's wonderful news about your friend! Hooray for miracles and 4wD. I hope her recovery continues to go well.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

No, but continuity and character development were needed and welcomed.

That was exactly my point, it would have been simple to add a couple extra things.

Anyway, everything I said before Is of course my opinion only. I'm just a guy who liked all 5 seasons, just for different reasons. (That was a totally unintentional rhyme). I'm not saying I was not frustrated by a few of the things you guys mentioned, but I still enjoyed what we got. I'm a little busy at the moment so I can't post a that great of explanation. But I will come back to it if I can. I think one of the main problems was they wanted to get away from some of their formula for the first part of the show, but didn't want to go too far away. So it ended up giving us almost a "half-way" to a darker serialized show. Which obviously felt really incomplete. And that didn't exactly make a whole lot of sense either way; but that was still enjoyable TV for me.

As far as the success of the show goes, it's really hard to quantify exactly what the fans did or did not want. Some people such as many of yourselves many have tuned out in Season 4 and 5. But others didn't. Some people may have tuned in because maybe they liked all the thins you hated or hated all the things you liked. Or maybe hated the things you hated and like some of the things you also hated. (Not too much unlike myself if I wasn't watching in only on DVDs)

I think even on Gateworld alone for example there are people that both love and hate the same show for apparently opposite reasons. I've seen complaints that the show got too dark and I've seen complaints that the show was too light hearted. And that's just one example. The McKeller storyline certainly was a polarizing thing too, many people loved or hated it but even people who hated it seemed to disagree diametrically. I think it says a lot that some people said they hated the couple because they loved Rodney and some people hated the couple because they hated Rodney! Despite the controversy, I think the show was still going strong enough (at the very least in a basic successful TV sort of sense) to merit a 6th season by the time they did pull the plug on it.

[Southern Red]

That was exactly my point, it would have been simple to add a couple extra things.

Anyway, everything I said before Is of course my opinion only. I'm just a guy who liked all 5 seasons, just for different reasons. (That was a totally unintentional rhyme). I'm not saying I was not frustrated by a few of the things you guys mentioned, but I still enjoyed what we got. I'm a little busy at the moment so I can't post a that great of explanation. But I will come back to it if I can. I think one of the main problems was they wanted to get away from some of their formula for the first part of the show, but didn't want to go too far away. So it ended up giving us almost a "half-way" to a darker serialized show. Which obviously felt really incomplete. And that didn't exactly make a whole lot of sense either way; but that was still enjoyable TV for me.

As far as the success of the show goes, it's really hard to quantify exactly what the fans did or did not want. Some people such as many of yourselves many have tuned out in Season 4 and 5. But others didn't. Some people may have tuned in because maybe they liked all the thins you hated or hated all the things you liked. Or maybe hated the things you hated and like some of the things you also hated. (Not too much unlike myself if I wasn't watching in only on DVDs)

I think even on Gateworld alone for example there are people that both love and hate the same show for apparently opposite reasons. I've seen complaints that the show got too dark and I've seen complaints that the show was too light hearted. And that's just one example. The McKeller storyline certainly was a polarizing thing too, many people loved or hated it but even people who hated it seemed to disagree diametrically. I think it says a lot that some people said they hated the couple because they loved Rodney and some people hated the couple because they hated Rodney! Despite the controversy, I think the show was still going strong enough (at the very least in a basic successful TV sort of sense) to merit a 6th season by the time they did pull the plug on it.

I hope you do come back because you have very good points. There is a lot of disagreement on GW. The Vegas threads are proof of that. And some people do a very good job of explaining why they don't like things rather than just repeating over and over that it was awful. We do a pretty good job here of being objective even to the point of playing Devil's Advocate at times. *points at self*

[nephtys59]

They didn't need to weep and grieve every minute but just a mention by each of them would have been nice. Elizabeth was mentioned occasionally but the lack of impact on Rodney was particularly grating to me. He writes a 500 page book about her and then a few months later is all bouncy and happy about the possibility of getting her job.

Exactly, that's inconsistent writing to me. And it hurts most of all because I *LOVE* this characters and I can't stand it when they're treated the wrong way or they behave incoherently such as McKay did in that occasion. We know he's ambitious and arrogant, but -when the people he cares about are involved- he's different.

And don't even get me started on how easily they all accepted Carter. Especially John. He should have been a bit more hard to deal with in respect to her and they could have done it without him being insubordinate.

Let's take as example the conversation between Carter and Sheppard, when she refuses to let him go on Elizabeth's rescue. First of all, sounds too much as the Sheppard/Weir first argue in Rising.
Second, Sheppard surrenders too easily. "Fair enough" he says and goes away. That's all?

Carter also complained about the *too relaxed* atmosphere on Atlantis. Let's show some conflicts, damn it, I don't buy John accepting her 100% and never complaining. Grrrr!

[nephtys59]

Because at a moment when the show should have been recalling how this one little planet changed the whole course of its existence, here are Rodney and John, joking about this planet being a pain in the *ss and punching it out of existence like they're playing Space Invaders. Like they completely forgot Elizabeth died there. She died there. Four months earlier. And I'm supposed to consider that episode great because the space battle was cool?

Agree. Absolutely.
Season 4 was a wasted opportunity.
We have Adrift + Lifeline, so dark, so heartbreaking and God, they have a *wonderful* chance to put Atlantis in the right direction and they screw it. That scene you talk about made me so angry I wanted to break the TV

Sorry. I'm not that type of fan.

Me neither. I felt as bad as I was at the beginning of Season 4 of Enterprise.
Dark Archer says he has lost something out there (probably his soul) and then he's cured with sex on the mountains, OMFG, gimme a break!

For me, Season 4 failed not because it didn't have the ability to have great stories--individually, some of them had good depth--but because on a whole, I just didn't believe it.

Me too.

In the center of all this muddle, they had the opportunity to show human emotion over the loss of two great friends, and point out that perhaps all this chaos of feeling and doing and being was because, as human beings, we don't handle grief and change well. But I didn't feel they did that. I didn't feel Elizabeth or Carson's loss perceptibly in anyone but John. And that, for me, was the icing on the cake for why I stopped watching.

I didn't stop watching, because I was *spoiler free* and I hoped something could change for the better.
I enjoyed "The Last Man" for example and I hoped for more in Season 5, then I got the Teyla/Ford dream when John's wounded (where's Elizabeth for crying out loud???) and the crappy GITM I hate so much. I resisted until the last episode because I was curious about the ending, but I only felt a bittersweet taste in my mouth.

Only B5 was able to give me a wonderful Series Finale like "Sleeping in Light" ... I still believe it's the best I ever watched and I'll ever watch in my life.

[Southern Red]

Exactly, that's inconsistent writing to me. And it hurts most of all because I *LOVE* this characters and I can't stand it when they're treated the wrong way or they behave incoherently such as McKay did in that occasion. We know he's ambitious and arrogant, but -when the people he cares about are involved- he's different.

Let's take as example the conversation between Carter and Sheppard, when she refuses to let him go on Elizabeth's rescue. First of all, sounds too much as the Sheppard/Weir first argue in Rising.
Second, Sheppard surrenders too easily. "Fair enough" he says and goes away. That's all?

Carter also complained about the *too relaxed* atmosphere on Atlantis. Let's show some conflicts, damn it, I don't buy John accepting her 100% and never complaining. Grrrr!

Yes and most of the time it seemed like John was running the place because Carter was no where to be seen or he just went off and did what he wanted unless she was conveniently somehow on the base. Like in S&R when she let him go off wounded. What terrible writing. Keller could easily have sedated him and should have.

The Carter/John relationship was like Weir/John without the personal connection. They wrote her and later Woolsey in almost the exact same way as Elizabeth. I actually liked the Woolsey/John dynamic but still think Woolsey was accepted too easily. Why not have a little conflict? Why not let us see what losing her meant to everyone? Even minor characters such as Chuck and Zelenka should have had their moment to miss her. And the very core belief that John stuck to for the entire series that you don't leave anyone behind was tossed aside when it came to the leader of the expedition. That just never made sense.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

It's been a little while since I've seen early Season 4 episodes but I could see John (and most of the expedition really) being professional enough to not give Sam any unnecessary problems. It's not really her fault they weren't able to save her and I think it's easy to see how they could be friends, but Ronon's sudden change in opinion and acceptance seemed a bit odd. I guess it's one of those thing's we're supposed to believe happened off screen so the irregular viewers aren't confused. And I guess Sam was supposed to be super great at everything.

Thinking back, I can really see certain bond between Carter and Sheppard but Sam had nowhere near the same level of chemistry with him or any of the cast that Elizabeth did. I tended to look at it like: John loses one of his closest friends. But he doesn't take it out on his new commander because Sam was a nice enough individual. So by the time Richard Woolsey roles around he wouldn't have had the same resentment he might have had if he replaced directly Weir.

The thing about Search and Rescue was on one hand I thought that was an awesome moment because John really articulates that desperation to save his friends perhaps as best as he's ever done. But the fact that Keller actually acquiesce and just let him go seemed pretty silly. And it really didn't exactly speak well of her. She seemed more concerned with keeping him "happy" (for lack of a better word) than alive. I imagine if it had been Janet Fraiser she would have probably strapped him to the bed and saved his life even if he'd been kicking and screaming.

Although, actually what happened was rather confusing to me. At first I thought maybe she had done something to him that temporarily made him stronger so he could go on the mission. He seemed in strangely pretty good shape for a guy that he just been buried under all of that rubble. I thought that was an interesting development since even thought it maybe have been an ethical issue, it at least made sense. But since I couldn't actually think of any device or special drug mentioned they had in their possession that could do that and no explanation was ever given, I guess we're supposed to believe she just let him go and hoped he didn't die?

I mean sure, I could really get behind the idea that Keller bent the rules to help John save Teyla, but the way they ended up doing it was far fetched. Not a huge deal really, but I kinda wish they'd done it slightly differently.

Holy crap this post was way longer than I intended.

[Falcon Horus]

Which certainly makes one wonder how the heck they managed to edit the episode when it was made...

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!! Kate! And Carson! And Lizzie!

That. Is. AWESOME!!!!!!! *runs around screaming in glee*

*iz def*

I will bring my favorite Tuscan Dip which has cream cheese, sour cream, sun-dried tomatoes, black olives and red onions.

Mmmmm.... yummy... except for the black olives maybe...

Chills in a good way. Very suspenseful and leaves much to the imagination.

And the imagination is what it's all about...

HOLY CRAP - that gave me goosebumps! WOWEEE!

You're welcome.

I feel like I need to make my trailer and banner too!

Get busy ... come on... work that magic!

FH: Nice teaser.I want to see this season in real now.lol

Yup, likewise. Bring it on!

This was awesome! YAYS!

And now onto the large topic of discussion... wow, there are so many thoughts where I don't even realize I'm nodding fiercely or shaking my head. So many great points... and MASSIVE GREEN TO ALL!!