Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[hasdcc]

Actually I've read something like that Clone-Jack is dying and goes back in time to save Sam's mum. And there's ogling on both sides...

Yeah i've read something like that too. Wasn't very impressed by it though.

[scarimor]

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

All I've ever seen re this supposed UST, is Sam gazing at Jack with the DEOD, causing some very ill-timed, awkward moments, and Jack looking very constipated in return. I mean, for cryin out loud! Jack's desperately worried over whether his best friend is dead or alive (Threads), and all Sammikins is interested in is getting the nerve up to profess her undying love !!!!

See, I can't see how that scene is supposed to be shippy. Can't. See. It.

Don't. Want. To.

[grasshopper64]

GRRRRR - I had to run over here for a rant, hope you don't mind guys.

Just ran away from yet ANOTHER 'must have S&J getting married and walking off hand in hand in to the sunset' posts on one of those 'What would you like to see before SG1 ends' 'Speculation on the DVD Movies' threads, I'm sure you know the ones

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

All I've ever seen re this supposed UST, is Sam gazing at Jack with the DEOD, causing some very ill-timed, awkward moments, and Jack looking very constipated in return. I mean, for cryin out loud! Jack's desperately worried over whether his best friend is dead or alive (Threads), and all Sammikins is interested in is getting the nerve up to profess her undying love !!!!

Why, why, why does resolution of something that, if it did 'almost' exist, has certainly fizzled out in S9 & S10, be viewed as vital for the movies.

Sorry, just had to let off a little steam. I feel a little calmer now

Delta

Ranting is welcome here, when it comes to S/J and also D/V I often feel the need to vent
I'm thankful for this thread and the anti D/V

Yes I'm seeing all this "we must have a S/J resolution" stuff. I mean if people want to ship S/J that's up to them, but keep it off the screen. I've never seen any romantic chemistry between Sam and Jack and all the ship stuff has felt so forced it's crazy. I don't get this "fallen in love" stuff either, when did that happen? And then there's the "they're meant to be together", in whose eyes?
Ship has been pretty much all one way in my book, and it did a lot of damage to the character of Sam in the process.
Do they really think TPTB would do a good job of it anyway? We know how good they are at writing relationships
Any reference to ship/implying something was going on would completely ruin and overshadow that episode/movie.
Now I'm ranting too........

[Crow T. Robot]

Actually I've read something like that Clone-Jack is dying and goes back in time to save Sam's mum. And there's ogling on both sides...

17 and 17 doesn’t bother me.

38-39 hitting on 17 or 50+ hitting on 17----Whole other story besides it being illegal in a couple of places here in the states IMHO it just makes the older party look desperate and pathetic.

As for the 4 year old thing, I blame the Beta there more than the author. I’m almost sure the author didn’t mean for the scene to come across as disturbing as it did. That was the time and place for a good Beta to ask them honestly “Would you write this scene in reverse” and/or “Do you really think adding ship elements are appropriate here”. Sometimes what can be perfectly innocent in an author’s head can just come across as alarming on paper. That’s when a good Beta should step in.

When I beta’ed for another fandom if I became more concerned with hurting a friend’s feeling than I did for making sure they wrote a good story I referred them to someone else. Some times asking your friend to beta for you isn’t the best answer.

I’m with you Jess nothing drives me crazier than a story that starts out as a pretty good Gen story and suddenly the author just drops ship in it with NO thought if it fits the plot or not.

[Dani347]

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

Well, I don't mind people wanting it, or even wanting it on screen. I'm sure my wants are at cross purposes with a lot of fans as well. However, two things. First, I do believe that if I were a shipper, the last thing I'd want is to see it on screen now after the way tptb have handled things. Why would I want to see something I consider important butchered by the writers? Second has to do with the second sentence above. That's one reason why I hate the ship. Because I saw no progression in the feelings where they were supposed to have "fallen in love." It's like, when did they fall in love? Why? How? Where did you see it unfold? And the writers are saying, "Shut up, you annoying anti-J/S-ers. They're in love! There is no why, no question. It's just a fact." It's like the mere idea of them is enough, and no work was put into it.

[Jace021903]

GRRRRR - I had to run over here for a rant, hope you don't mind guys.

Just ran away from yet ANOTHER 'must have S&J getting married and walking off hand in hand in to the sunset' posts on one of those 'What would you like to see before SG1 ends' 'Speculation on the DVD Movies' threads, I'm sure you know the ones

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

All I've ever seen re this supposed UST, is Sam gazing at Jack with the DEOD, causing some very ill-timed, awkward moments, and Jack looking very constipated in return. I mean, for cryin out loud! Jack's desperately worried over whether his best friend is dead or alive (Threads), and all Sammikins is interested in is getting the nerve up to profess her undying love !!!!

Why, why, why does resolution of something that, if it did 'almost' exist, has certainly fizzled out in S9 & S10, be viewed as vital for the movies.

Sorry, just had to let off a little steam. I feel a little calmer now

Delta

Hmmm, I hope they don't go for that ending, but you never know with these guys.

I do take comfort in the fact that one of the writers mentioned that "that" scene in 200 would never happen regularly.

[JessM]

I don't know why you people bash writers so much ...

*looks around* I don't see any bashing here. And as Crow said there is a difference between bashing and constructive criticism. When someone publishes something on the internet they leave themselves open to criticism, some of it not well-deserved. Hey, I'm a writer and I've been criticized before. I've also been bashed before by people who don't like the pairing (for which they have NO excuse because I always note the pairing in my intro).

I don't see anyone bashing here. We're all entitled to our opinions and no one is coming out and saying "I utterly hate this piece of garbage that [insert author's name here] has written."

[JessM]

Which is why I cleverly stay away from D/V ship. And, so far, any writers have said upfront that's what the stories will be. But, I tend to do most of my reading from pre season 9 (mainly because after, there's way more likelihood of D/V ship stories)

Same here. The only s9 and later fics I've read are the ones posted at the Yahoo groups I belong to for my specific pairing, because they're labeled as such for that pairing and most of the people there don't like D/V ship also. Although, one person wrote a tag for Beachhead and had two different endings - a Sam/Daniel one and a Daniel/Vala one. I guess you know which ending I avoided.

Absolutely. People who like the pairings will hunt them out and enjoy, and people who don't won't have to read something they hate. But, I'm all for precise labeling of any fanfic. I don't read certain things and I want to know upfront if I should start a story or not.

Yep, I even told my friend after I started reading the story that I wish she'd told me or made a note of the pairings, because I usually avoid D/V and S/J stories. She never said anything, although the next story she wrote she did say up front that it was D/V (though I avoided reading that one too).

[JessM]

GRRRRR - I had to run over here for a rant, hope you don't mind guys.

Just ran away from yet ANOTHER 'must have S&J getting married and walking off hand in hand in to the sunset' posts on one of those 'What would you like to see before SG1 ends' 'Speculation on the DVD Movies' threads, I'm sure you know the ones

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

All I've ever seen re this supposed UST, is Sam gazing at Jack with the DEOD, causing some very ill-timed, awkward moments, and Jack looking very constipated in return. I mean, for cryin out loud! Jack's desperately worried over whether his best friend is dead or alive (Threads), and all Sammikins is interested in is getting the nerve up to profess her undying love !!!!

Why, why, why does resolution of something that, if it did 'almost' exist, has certainly fizzled out in S9 & S10, be viewed as vital for the movies.

Sorry, just had to let off a little steam. I feel a little calmer now

Delta

I don't mind at all. I never saw anything shippy there. It did seem awkward to me - heck even the scene where Sam is crying over Jacob and Jack puts his arm around her seemed awkward to me. Jack was probably preoccupied thinking where he could find some good prunes

When I first heard about S9 I was almost glad that Jack wouldn't be there much if it meant the end of all that awkward Sam 'n Sir stuff (though with the way things have been going the past two seasons I've been missing him... the "old" Jack though, from the earlier seasons). Shippers have been crowing over the "not exactly" line from Ex Deus Machina, but it's so ambiguous no one can say definitely what she meant (I hold that she said it to get Barrett off her back). Nothing else has been going on in S9 and S10 to hint at S/J - and even when Jack came back in 200, I didn't see anything there to hint at ship either. It would seem quite odd to me to suddenly go back to it in the season finale or in the movies.

[JessM]

Ranting is welcome here, when it comes to S/J and also D/V I often feel the need to vent
I'm thankful for this thread and the anti D/V

Amen

Yes I'm seeing all this "we must have a S/J resolution" stuff. I mean if people want to ship S/J that's up to them, but keep it off the screen. I've never seen any romantic chemistry between Sam and Jack and all the ship stuff has felt so forced it's crazy. I don't get this "fallen in love" stuff either, when did that happen? And then there's the "they're meant to be together", in whose eyes?
Ship has been pretty much all one way in my book, and it did a lot of damage to the character of Sam in the process.
Do they really think TPTB would do a good job of it anyway? We know how good they are at writing relationships
Any reference to ship/implying something was going on would completely ruin and overshadow that episode/movie.
Now I'm ranting too........

All that "they're meant to be together", as far as both S/J and D/V are concerned, are in the eyes of the beholder IMO. To me it seems cliched. I remember reading once that some people shipped them because they loved the idea of the token female of the main cast falling for the lead character. It also seems that some of these people don't care how TPTB write relationships - all they care is that they get their resolution. I've talked to both S/J and D/V shippers who are hopeless romantics and they want these couples together just for that reason. Well, that's nice but I personally don't see romantic relationships possible in these cases.

[Dani347]

Anti shippers have done their share of moaning over the "not exactly" line. I may have done some moaning myself, I don't recall. I know I didn't do any crowing. But, now, I'm pretty philosophical on that line. It was one bad line that fortunately from my end didn't go anywhere. It hasn't colored the show, although it may color how people watch it, or watch Sam.

[Frostfox]

Just wait until you’re reading a story on a list and so far it’s clear of ship and then they drop it in the middle of a story. I’m still trying to claw my eyes out from a section in a story where Sam’s ogling a 4 year old Jack. YUCK!

Sorry, an almost 40 year old Sam thinking about a 4 year old in those terms or hitting on Jack’s 17 year old clone, not my cup of tea—BIG TIME. For me it boarders on disturbing and I wonder what the hell their Beta’s were thinking.


Crow runs screaming!

Ye gods. You must be joking? Shudder. Sadly, I suspect you aren't. That's just sick.

I agree, I really hope they've moved away from the ship and won't try it if he's in the finale. I think one of my worst nightmares would be to see them all standing looking at the gate, then Sam and Jack turn to each other and kiss, or walk away arm in arm... then Daniel and Vala do the same thing, leaving Mitchell and Teal'c looking at each other blankly.

Please! I just ate dinner. Now I feel nauseous.

I know the feeling of thinking you're reading a gen fic and suddenly it turns out to be 'ship. I was reading one in a Daniel fic archive. It was supposed to be an episode tag for Morpheus, seemed gen for a while and then it magically transformed into Daniel/Vala near the end. Puke.

And then a friend asked me to read a fic of hers on fanfiction.net. She's a Daniel whumper. No clue in her summary as to any pairings in the story, so I figured it was gen. Hah - I get to the fifth sentence, and surprise!! Daniel and Vala are married, as are Sam and Jack! I needed some big-time brain bleach for that.

I mean if people want to write stories like that, it's fine with me. I just wish they'd make a note of the pairings or ship first so I won't be in for any potentially unpleasant surprises.

It's terribly bad etiquette to not make pairings clear in fanfic. I had a blazing on-line row with a writer who posted a story with quite explicit hetrosexual sex without warning the audience at all. She then had the audacity to complain about another writer posting slash which was clearly marked with the pairing and wasn't in any way explicit. We decided that she was just a bigot as it was clear that she couldn't understand what might be offensive about her attitude, that hetro sex was normal and that slash was sick and perverted, even if only implied (and much more tasteful than what she'd written!).

I don't mind at all. I never saw anything shippy there. It did seem awkward to me - heck even the scene where Sam is crying over Jacob and Jack puts his arm around her seemed awkward to me. Jack was probably preoccupied thinking where he could find some good prunes

That was a scene which annoyed me.
Ship or get off the plot.
Have RDA act as though he cares that his 2IC is crying on his shoulder or shoot the scene in a different way altogether.
Like you, I felt it came over awkward, it was part of that whole season where poor Amanda was emoting her socks off and might have well been playing against a brick wall for all the feedback RDA gave her. It made either Sam look weak (and I hate that, hate, hate, hate) or RDA look like a bad actor (and we know he can act, we've seen him do it with humour and skill for years).
The acting and directing choices were just weird.

Nothing else has been going on in S9 and S10 to hint at S/J - and even when Jack came back in 200, I didn't see anything there to hint at ship either. It would seem quite odd to me to suddenly go back to it in the season finale or in the movies.

I'm hoping that it's dead and gone. Talking with friends on lj, a lot of the S/J shippers are moving on to new ships for other shows. It's a natural progression, most fans interest will wane in a show and they will pick up a new one and in season's 9 & 10, S/J ship has been mighty thin on the ground so it's only to be expected that the fanbase will thin.

Amen - it's all about the team! That's what made the show so great for me. Let's keep it that way for the finale/movies.

I think this should be the motto of this thread! SG1 is far more important than S/J (or D/V or D/J or any individual character).

FF

[JessM]

Anti shippers have done their share of moaning over the "not exactly" line. I may have done some moaning myself, I don't recall. I know I didn't do any crowing. But, now, I'm pretty philosophical on that line. It was one bad line that fortunately from my end didn't go anywhere. It hasn't colored the show, although it may color how people watch it, or watch Sam.

I think I did a bit of moaning when I first heard it... probably something like "oh please, not this again." But then I tried to reason it and came up with the "Back-off-Barrett" theory. And it didn't seem to go anywhere for me either, so it ended up not really bothering me at all.

[JessM]

Please! I just ate dinner. Now I feel nauseous.

Oops! Heheh, sorry... If it means anything I was quite nauseous in typing that up and I'm still trying to scrub the image from my mind!

It's terribly bad etiquette to not make pairings clear in fanfic. I had a blazing on-line row with a writer who posted a story with quite explicit hetrosexual sex without warning the audience at all. She then had the audacity to complain about another writer posting slash which was clearly marked with the pairing and wasn't in any way explicit. We decided that she was just a bigot as it was clear that she couldn't understand what might be offensive about her attitude, that hetro sex was normal and that slash was sick and perverted, even if only implied (and much more tasteful than what she'd written!).

Sounds a lot like it! She has no reason to complain if the fic was clearly marked as such. I posted a post-ep fic to Affinity a day or two after it aired and almost immediately I got a review from a diehard S/J shipper complaining about it. The pairing was S/D and she kept saying "Ewwww, gross! I can't ever see Sam/Daniel angst -- now S/J angst is something I can really sink my teeth into!" I usually don't bother replying to people like that, but she had no excuse as I clearly stated the pairing in the summary. Her excuse was that she read it initially because it was under the "Angst" heading. I suppose she skipped over the summary, then. She apologized but said that a few bad episodes that season have had her down (I assumed they were the ones with Sam and Pete together).

That was a scene which annoyed me.
Ship or get off the plot.
Have RDA act as though he cares that his 2IC is crying on his shoulder or shoot the scene in a different way altogether.
Like you, I felt it came over awkward, it was part of that whole season where poor Amanda was emoting her socks off and might have well been playing against a brick wall for all the feedback RDA gave her. It made either Sam look weak (and I hate that, hate, hate, hate) or RDA look like a bad actor (and we know he can act, we've seen him do it with humour and skill for years).
The acting and directing choices were just weird.

I agree. I almost started losing some respect for Sam that season because of how weak she appeared at various times ... and I did think something was weird about the way RDA appeared to be acting. Like you said, it comes down to the acting and directing choices. They could have done things differently that could have resulted in some nice friendship scenes between Sam and Jack, but they had to go the "shippy" route and make things just so uncomfortable.

I'm hoping that it's dead and gone. Talking with friends on lj, a lot of the S/J shippers are moving on to new ships for other shows. It's a natural progression, most fans interest will wane in a show and they will pick up a new one and in season's 9 & 10, S/J ship has been mighty thin on the ground so it's only to be expected that the fanbase will thin.

Same here, and I've noticed that as well. I know a few S/J shippers who have become more interested in Atlantis and are shipping on that show now. I've noticed a few people on one Yahoo group I belong to start saying that they don't think anything could work out between Sam and Jack as he's in Washington now, and don't believe such a long-distance relationship could work out.

I think this should be the motto of this thread! SG1 is far more important than S/J (or D/V or D/J or any individual character).

FF

Sounds good to me! Our rallying cry: It's all about the Team!!

[Frostfox]

I agree. I almost started losing some respect for Sam that season because of how weak she appeared at various times ... and I did think something was weird about the way RDA appeared to be acting. Like you said, it comes down to the acting and directing choices. They could have done things differently that could have resulted in some nice friendship scenes between Sam and Jack, but they had to go the "shippy" route and make things just so uncomfortable.

We used to get fabulous friendship between Sam and Jack. I'm thinking Solitudes and Fire and Water here. Good solid team bonding, non of this mooning over the boss milarky, non of this innuendo and skirting legallity.
And those that liked the pairing could still read into it what they wanted to. And the rest of fandom could see the freindship and team bonding and it was SG1 and part of what made the show special and good.

I know a few S/J shippers who have become more interested in Atlantis and are shipping on that show now. I've noticed a few people on one Yahoo group I belong to start saying that they don't think anything could work out between Sam and Jack as he's in Washington now, and don't believe such a long-distance relationship could work out.

Well, they seemed to be setting up Jack to retire at the end of season 8, as he didn't, I took that as a sign that the shippy rubbish was dead and buried and I could go back to watching Sam without cringing for her.
I wouldn't trust the writers of either show with any relationship. Not after this debacle.

Our rallying cry: It's all about the Team!!

This never gets old!

FF