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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
    ^I should have said "attempted humor"--the last couple of seasons were not my taste.
    And yes, professional writers paid good money to produce stories for a set of characters, not just the ones they liked best or found easiest to write for. Wouldn't we all love to be able to only do the easy/fun stuff at our jobs?--and be paid the way I'm sure they are... (cranky today, aren't I? )
    I wouldn't give a blanket thumbs down to the humour in later seasons, it's all so subjective, but it did feel broader, less in keeping than the earlier seasons. There were times in seasons 1 to 8 when I felt that RDA's free reign to make Jack into a bit of a joke went too far too, but RDA was, without a doubt a net gain to the show.

    FF
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      Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
      You notice they never worried about who Daniel or Teal'c were with or not in the alternate realities. Prime example of tptb thinking "the girl's" main concern is romance.
      Excellent point! It's only Sam's love life that receives this kind of intense focus. Sure, we see Daniel with Sarah, and Teal'c with Ishta, Krista (a.k.a. random neighbor from "Affinity"), and Shau'nac throughout the show... but we see multiple versions of Daniel, Teal'c, and Cameron in "Ripple Effect." None of them talk about marriages or significant others. It's only the alternate Sams whose love lives are even mentioned. Heck, what about the alternate characters in Moebius? Alt!Sam wonders if "the other me has a boyfriend," yet we get no mention of whether or not the alt!Teal'c had a wife on Chulak. It just seems like the writers were overly obsessed with Sam's love life.

      Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
      re: the Sap Meter, Khent--I actually have a high tolerance for sappy happy endings. But it takes some talent to do schmaltz well. imho it has to be believable within the world that's been created so you let yourself go with it. imho, S/J was never believable in the world of SG1.
      Every once in a while, I will watch a show/movie with a sappy, happy ending that makes me feel all warm and happy. But more often, I just groan and roll my eyes. It's very hard to make me buy it.

      I completely agree that S/J wasn't believable within the SG1 world. But even if they could have written it believably, they would have also had to eliminate several of the major cliches and stereotypes in the pairing in order for me to personally buy it. I'm just a tough audience when it comes to romance, I guess.

      Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
      Well, you've heard of separate beds? Sam and Jack went for separate universes!
      But, of course, their love is written in the stars, so it doesn't matter, it is a force of nature that, even galaxies apart, they are one.
      Eww, even I can't believe I wrote that dross.
      That's too funny.

      And I can't believer you wrote that either. Hopefully you got it out of your system now.

      Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
      No I don't. Mature would have been to thrash it out behind closed doors, lay it all out on the table and move on. But that would have involved moving a conversation along beyond the cringeworthy "Sir, about what I said before ... I Know" type of interaction that we endured for years, and that was never going to happen with these writers.
      Yep, they would have actually had to converse in full, complete sentences, using nouns, verbs, and adjectives in order to clarify their feelings and expectations of each other. You know... like having a full conversation. With words, not just awkward looks. Such a novel concept.
      Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

      Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
      Hallowed are the Optimi.

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        Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
        Excellent point! It's only Sam's love life that receives this kind of intense focus. Sure, we see Daniel with Sarah, and Teal'c with Ishta, Krista (a.k.a. random neighbor from "Affinity"), and Shau'nac throughout the show... but we see multiple versions of Daniel, Teal'c, and Cameron in "Ripple Effect." None of them talk about marriages or significant others. It's only the alternate Sams whose love lives are even mentioned. Heck, what about the alternate characters in Moebius? Alt!Sam wonders if "the other me has a boyfriend," yet we get no mention of whether or not the alt!Teal'c had a wife on Chulak. It just seems like the writers were overly obsessed with Sam's love life.



        Every once in a while, I will watch a show/movie with a sappy, happy ending that makes me feel all warm and happy. But more often, I just groan and roll my eyes. It's very hard to make me buy it.

        I completely agree that S/J wasn't believable within the SG1 world. But even if they could have written it believably, they would have also had to eliminate several of the major cliches and stereotypes in the pairing in order for me to personally buy it. I'm just a tough audience when it comes to romance, I guess.



        That's too funny.

        And I can't believer you wrote that either. Hopefully you got it out of your system now.



        Yep, they would have actually had to converse in full, complete sentences, using nouns, verbs, and adjectives in order to clarify their feelings and expectations of each other. You know... like having a full conversation. With words, not just awkward looks. Such a novel concept.
        It's the little boy complex. It's almost like in SG1, babies come from a cabbage patch or the stork. At least that's the mentality i get when we get once of thsoe awkward look scenes The sad thing is it's pretty much ONLY sam/jack that have this issue. Most other "shippy" moments are muted and subtle, never so blatantly in your face with the induced tension or sap that you can ACTUALLY ENJOY IT.

        I've learned this from writing my own stories, Romance is best played subtle and almost laterally. A direct scene maybe if they're alone and having a private conversation, but subtle moves, looks, body language and even tone say much more than anobvious "uhh i think you're sexy" vibe I'd say never let the ship overtake the significance of hte scene, like in Upgrades. Okay, they're all about to DIE and what's the focus? the one ship to rule them all!

        I actually like that scene when i don't consider it shippy. It speaks volumes of their friendship and team spirit, but the instant it becomes about "I WUB YOU!" it loses all its power. It's suddenly about "wuv" instead of a bond that is more than just a physical attraction. I find it much better to think of that scene as Jack thinking "She's my teammate, I'm not leaving her behind even if it means i'm in danger." because wow, how good of a bond do they have to have that and not be thinking "I want your children."

        Realistically, that scene in upgrades isn't bad on its own, but mixed in with all the other painfully obvious and cringe worthy scenes in the series, it just loses all impact and becomes and "Sam/Sir" instead of "Master/Protege"
        Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
        Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

        Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
        Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

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          Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
          Excellent point! It's only Sam's love life that receives this kind of intense focus. Sure, we see Daniel with Sarah, and Teal'c with Ishta, Krista (a.k.a. random neighbor from "Affinity"), and Shau'nac throughout the show... but we see multiple versions of Daniel, Teal'c, and Cameron in "Ripple Effect." None of them talk about marriages or significant others. It's only the alternate Sams whose love lives are even mentioned. Heck, what about the alternate characters in Moebius? Alt!Sam wonders if "the other me has a boyfriend," yet we get no mention of whether or not the alt!Teal'c had a wife on Chulak. It just seems like the writers were overly obsessed with Sam's love life.
          Yep, it’s the tired old ‘The Girl’ problem that Amanda tried to quash early on. In later seasons it creeps back in quite, quite noticeably.
          I get frustrated because they seemed to waste Amanda and Sam on such boring stuff, MS gets juicy plot lines which move the overall arc of SG1 on, Sam gets to bat her eyes at the boss. Even when they give Amanda lots of screen time, it’s wasted on something dull like Grace. She acts her concussion really well in that episode, but I just tune out because the plot is so tired and overused and doesn’t go anywhere apart from into her fantasies about her boss. Just not compelling stuff and when she dismisses even that as a trivial fantasy, I too hoped the whole sorry Sam/Jack mess was over and that we could get on with the real plot. Slim hope, by that stage they had killed off or removed most of Sam’s plotlines which didn’t relate to Sir.

          Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
          Every once in a while, I will watch a show/movie with a sappy, happy ending that makes me feel all warm and happy. But more often, I just groan and roll my eyes. It's very hard to make me buy it.

          I completely agree that S/J wasn't believable within the SG1 world. But even if they could have written it believably, they would have also had to eliminate several of the major cliches and stereotypes in the pairing in order for me to personally buy it. I'm just a tough audience when it comes to romance, I guess.
          The only way I really like romance is in musicals, there is something about that genre which I find suited to romance, perhaps because they are intrinsically removed that step from reality?
          I am in complete agreement that S/J didn’t fit comfortable into the world of SG1 (I think Daniel/Vala was an even worse fit)

          Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
          That's too funny.

          And I can't believer you wrote that either. Hopefully you got it out of your system now.
          So do I, made me feel quite ill.

          Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
          Yep, they would have actually had to converse in full, complete sentences, using nouns, verbs, and adjectives in order to clarify their feelings and expectations of each other. You know... like having a full conversation. With words, not just awkward looks. Such a novel concept.
          10+ years and never a hint of a normal, adult conversation that’s not about work. Must be some kind of record? It’s too late now, SG1 is over so we have the canon given to us by TPTB, and, in canon, they never managed it. It’s quite easy to say that Jack never had mature conversations with anyone about anything (If you ignore all ones he an Daniel had) but any character reduced to just quips and one-liners quickly becomes a cypher and irrelevant.

          Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
          It's the little boy complex. It's almost like in SG1, babies come from a cabbage patch or the stork. At least that's the mentality i get when we get once of thsoe awkward look scenes The sad thing is it's pretty much ONLY sam/jack that have this issue. Most other "shippy" moments are muted and subtle, never so blatantly in your face with the induced tension or sap that you can ACTUALLY ENJOY IT.

          I've learned this from writing my own stories, Romance is best played subtle and almost laterally. A direct scene maybe if they're alone and having a private conversation, but subtle moves, looks, body language and even tone say much more than anobvious "uhh i think you're sexy" vibe I'd say never let the ship overtake the significance of hte scene, like in Upgrades. Okay, they're all about to DIE and what's the focus? the one ship to rule them all!

          I actually like that scene when i don't consider it shippy. It speaks volumes of their friendship and team spirit, but the instant it becomes about "I WUB YOU!" it loses all its power. It's suddenly about "wuv" instead of a bond that is more than just a physical attraction. I find it much better to think of that scene as Jack thinking "She's my teammate, I'm not leaving her behind even if it means i'm in danger." because wow, how good of a bond do they have to have that and not be thinking "I want your children."

          Realistically, that scene in upgrades isn't bad on its own, but mixed in with all the other painfully obvious and cringe worthy scenes in the series, it just loses all impact and becomes and "Sam/Sir" instead of "Master/Protege"
          Making it about Sam and Jack and this supposed transcendent love they have weakens scenes for me. If you don’t see the love between them, or see it and don’t believe in it, it rapidly descends into melodrama if not outright farce.
          The litmus test for any scene should be ‘does this add to the overall story? Does this enhance SG1 as a whole, not just two characters? Does this romantic scene make the characters (any characters) look like mature adults or silly school kids?’ We know character scenes were dropped again and again in favour of action, which made any and all such scenes valuable and precious, wasting them on Sam and Jack didn’t make SG1 a better show and didn’t make either character more believable or likable.

          Character A is a hero. If he or she saves Character B because they love them, we are programmed by TV to see that love transcends all, including realistic and believable story telling. In reality, love is many things, including cruel and selfish and blind.

          How much stronger is the story if Character A saves Character B because they don’t love them, even though they outright hate them? Or, because they share the bonds built by living any dying together as a small military unit. They save Character B because it is the right thing to do, the noble thing, this is much more compelling and has much more impact and more to say about life in general than the trite cliché of A love B.

          Too often TPTB used ‘love’ as an excuse for poor or lazy storytelling, S/J was not the only offender (and I’m led to believe that Atlantis suffered even more) but it was their most glaring example on SG1 and the more heavy handed they became, the more obvious that was.

          FF
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            Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
            Yep, it’s the tired old ‘The Girl’ problem that Amanda tried to quash early on. In later seasons it creeps back in quite, quite noticeably.
            I get frustrated because they seemed to waste Amanda and Sam on such boring stuff, MS gets juicy plot lines which move the overall arc of SG1 on, Sam gets to bat her eyes at the boss. Even when they give Amanda lots of screen time, it’s wasted on something dull like Grace. She acts her concussion really well in that episode, but I just tune out because the plot is so tired and overused and doesn’t go anywhere apart from into her fantasies about her boss. Just not compelling stuff and when she dismisses even that as a trivial fantasy, I too hoped the whole sorry Sam/Jack mess was over and that we could get on with the real plot. Slim hope, by that stage they had killed off or removed most of Sam’s plotlines which didn’t relate to Sir.
            I may get kicked out of the Sam fan club but Grace is not one of my favorite Sam episodes, mostly b/c of the way it veers off into Sam's love life--and also b/c it *didn't* result in her letting go of Jack which seemed to be a main point in the end.
            I do think AT does some great acting and I liked Daniel & Teal'c appearing (even if it might have been a bit predictable that they'd show up).
            My favorite conversation: "You want me to talk to the cloud?" So it has some good moments. But somehow I think Sam would be more worried about saving herself and figuring out what happened to the crew than about her love life at that moment.

            Not that Sam wouldn't want a love life--but that's not the show we're watching if you know what I mean.

            (On the other hand she did take a pretty good blow to the head, so her brains were kind of scrambled... )

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              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
              I may get kicked out of the Sam fan club but Grace is not one of my favorite Sam episodes, mostly b/c of the way it veers off into Sam's love life--and also b/c it *didn't* result in her letting go of Jack which seemed to be a main point in the end.
              I do think AT does some great acting and I liked Daniel & Teal'c appearing (even if it might have been a bit predictable that they'd show up).
              My favorite conversation: "You want me to talk to the cloud?" So it has some good moments. But somehow I think Sam would be more worried about saving herself and figuring out what happened to the crew than about her love life at that moment.

              Not that Sam wouldn't want a love life--but that's not the show we're watching if you know what I mean.

              (On the other hand she did take a pretty good blow to the head, so her brains were kind of scrambled... )
              Just because I like Sam and Amanda, it doesn't mean I can't be critical, blind adoration is not my style, of any actor, any character.
              There were better stories to tell with the premise of Grace. Amanda's acting was good, as it always is, I thought the make-up was great too; she looked ill and in pain (unlike The Line In the Sand, when the make up had Amanda way, way too hale and hearty after getting shot) but the plot left a lot to be desired and I found it all very dull. More struggle to keep herself alive and find out what happened to the crew and a little less navel gazing would have made for a stronger story.
              But, as you say, blows to the head can bring on all sorts of delusions and nightmares.

              FF
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                Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                Just because I like Sam and Amanda, it doesn't mean I can't be critical, blind adoration is not my style, of any actor, any character.
                There were better stories to tell with the premise of Grace. Amanda's acting was good, as it always is, I thought the make-up was great too; she looked ill and in pain (unlike The Line In the Sand, when the make up had Amanda way, way too hale and hearty after getting shot) but the plot left a lot to be desired and I found it all very dull. More struggle to keep herself alive and find out what happened to the crew and a little less navel gazing would have made for a stronger story.
                But, as you say, blows to the head can bring on all sorts of delusions and nightmares.

                FF
                Yeah, AT sold the injury in LitS on sheer acting power, unaided by makeup.

                I think they were going for a sense of the emptiness of the ship in Grace, but that doesn't mean that had to have emptiness in the plot.
                Sam did try a bunch of things to get the engines going, etc but something was lacking. Maybe different directing would have helped? I don't know.

                There was a line that was a good Jack-Sam teammate one. When he tells her to "go save your ***." It would have been nice instead of the romance angle if they had played the Jack pep talk angle. Like in Solitudes when she starts going on about the odds & he just "Carter"s her & she says "I think too much." I love those kind of Sam & Jack moments.

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                  Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                  Yeah, AT sold the injury in LitS on sheer acting power, unaided by makeup.

                  I think they were going for a sense of the emptiness of the ship in Grace, but that doesn't mean that had to have emptiness in the plot.
                  Sam did try a bunch of things to get the engines going, etc but something was lacking. Maybe different directing would have helped? I don't know.

                  There was a line that was a good Jack-Sam teammate one. When he tells her to "go save your ***." It would have been nice instead of the romance angle if they had played the Jack pep talk angle. Like in Solitudes when she starts going on about the odds & he just "Carter"s her & she says "I think too much." I love those kind of Sam & Jack moments.
                  I'm not blaming S/J for Grace being so limp, though, obviously, it doesn't help, it's just one of those forgettable, non-episodes with doesn't do anything of note. And because of that, a waste of a Sam episode when we don't get enough of them anyway.

                  FF
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                    Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                    I think they were going for a sense of the emptiness of the ship in Grace, but that doesn't mean that had to have emptiness in the plot.
                    I think you were referring to the literal emptiness of the Prometheus... but considering our usual conversation here, I sort of read that as "the emptiness of S/J ship." In this case, I think both can apply.

                    That said... I agree with the point you were trying to make. There just isn't much plot in Grace, and the psychological drama in Sam's head really isn't enough to fill up the whole episode. Especially since none of it has any lasting effect on Sam or the show as a whole.
                    Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

                    Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
                    Hallowed are the Optimi.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      I think you were referring to the literal emptiness of the Prometheus... but considering our usual conversation here, I sort of read that as "the emptiness of S/J ship." In this case, I think both can apply.

                      That said... I agree with the point you were trying to make. There just isn't much plot in Grace, and the psychological drama in Sam's head really isn't enough to fill up the whole episode. Especially since none of it has any lasting effect on Sam or the show as a whole.
                      Lol! You are so right!
                      If we had loads of Sam centric episodes, a dud like this wouldn't matter, but they are few and far between so it does. And, as you say, there's no follow through on her naval gazing, it's all back to the status quo again next episode.
                      Grace frequently seems to appear on lists of boring or disliked episodes, so it's clearly not just us who feel like this about it.

                      FF
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                        ^I do like slower moving or moody pieces--I like Paradise Lost, for example-- and Grace is ok, but something is missing.

                        On a positive note, what are some good Sam/Jack as teammates moments from S7 that people can think of?
                        Last edited by jckfan55; 31 March 2010, 10:30 AM. Reason: bad typo

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                          Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                          ^I do like slower moving or moody pieces--I like Paradise Lost, for example-- and Grace is ok, but something is missing.

                          On a positive note, what are some good Sam/Jack as teammates moments from S7 that people can think of?
                          I like slow and moody too (I liked Bajoran politics in DS9!) but there's a difference between slow and dull.

                          Good Sam and Jack in season seven?
                          Hm, have to think on that one. RDA had reduced his time on the show a lot, there was less Jack all round.

                          FF
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                            Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                            ^I do like slower moving or moody pieces--I like Paradise Lost, for example-- and Grace is ok, but something is missing.

                            On a positive note, what are some good Sam/Jack as teammates moments from S7 that people can think of?
                            I liked Paradise Lost a lot, and not just for the gratuitous sweaty, dirty, shoeless Jack shots. I loved Abyss, which was more character-driven than most. Grace ... I've only watched once. Too ponderous and confused. Also, any ep with Jack and Sam lip-locking (even if it is all in Sam's head) is to be avoided, I find.

                            Jack/Sam as teammates in S7? *ponders* I got nuthun.

                            I did like that moment in The Warrior (I think, season 5-ish) when Sam showed what the P-90 can do, and then looked at Jack with a "Go me!" kind of look. I wish they'd concentrated more on that kind of interaction. *sigh*

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                              Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                              I liked Paradise Lost a lot, and not just for the gratuitous sweaty, dirty, shoeless Jack shots. I loved Abyss, which was more character-driven than most. Grace ... I've only watched once. Too ponderous and confused. Also, any ep with Jack and Sam lip-locking (even if it is all in Sam's head) is to be avoided, I find.
                              Well, obviously, we have certain levels of good taste to adhere to. Shudder.

                              Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                              Jack/Sam as teammates in S7? *ponders* I got nuthun.
                              Me neither, and that is rather sad and rather telling of what TPTB silly infatuation with S/J did to the characters.

                              Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                              I did like that moment in The Warrior (I think, season 5-ish) when Sam showed what the P-90 can do, and then looked at Jack with a "Go me!" kind of look. I wish they'd concentrated more on that kind of interaction. *sigh*
                              Loved that scene, loved it.
                              That was what Sam and Jack were short of in later seasons, before all their scenes were tainted by what TPTB had tried to twist them into.

                              FF
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                                Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                                Jack/Sam as teammates in S7? *ponders* I got nuthun.
                                Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                                Me neither

                                Me three.....S.7 was sadly disappointing in true Team goodness, which was a shame since the (imho) "lynchpin" of their team was returned to them.......


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