Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[grasshopper64]

And I did see Sam pining for Jack. She may have said leave it in the room, but it was Sam who went to his house for that excruciating scene in Threads; it was Sam who sought Jack out for another embarrassing moment in Heroes; it was Sam who brought up the whole "Sir, about what I was going to say earlier" amid the flashing lights ....
It's all a matter of perception. I'd be curious to know when you saw it the other way round. All anti S/J ship talk is grist to the mill.
And which Bay City Rollers song was Amanda singing??? My money's on Shang a Lang ... and please tell me she wasn't wearing the tartan trews ... no woman should have to undergo that horror
jd

I've also seen the S/J ship as pretty much one way coming from Sam, especially in S7 & 8. Sure Jack isn't blameless but what came from Jack I saw as more leery, if that's the right word, like in Window of opportunity the way he looked at her at the end I was uncomfortable with, and I saw that kiss as just Jack being bored and he could get away with it. Also in the replicarter ep, when she says something about there being two Sams and he says "if only".

I agree about Threads, a lot of stuff in that ep is open to interpretation, I mean the fact that some people thought that Kerry was talking about Daniel in that scene, even as a slasher not something I could see myself but it's one way of interpreting it
I definitely saw it as Sam going to his house to confess her feelings.
I also saw Heroes as shippy and it's one reason I refuse to rewatch that ep.
The way they made out that it was Jack that had been killed and Sam was supposed to be crying over him, then of course it had to be Jack who comforted Sam. And what about Daniel, he was there when Janet died and barely had any interaction with the rest of his team.

I do so hope there is no ship in Continuum but these days nothing TPTB would suprise me, just look at Unending
It could be the last time we ever see Jack onscreen and it would be a shame to waste it on any ship. Oh well we have plenty of good eps to look back where there is no ship

[jdjunkie]

Absolutely! Tons of glorious Stargate with nary a hint of ship.
And I truly don't think they'll go there with Continuum. As far as TPTB are concerned, they gave the shippers their resolution in Threads.
We should all just be grateful it didn't involve a white wedding in the gateroom, a honeymoon on the Nox world, a Big Honkin Kiss as they skipped through the forest, butterflies, flights of angels, soaring choirs and lots and lots of little Carter-O'Neills
jd

[scarimor]

And as for Threads ... if Sam wasn't trying to make her feelings clear to Jack, what was with the "I'm sorry to bother you with this, but uh, see, there's actually a very good reason that I'm bothering you with this, and if I don't tell you now, I might never…" stuttering stuff? She'd gone there to tell him how she felt about him, not to seek solace from a friend. If all she'd gone there for was that, why was she sitting in the car beforehand obviously trying to pluck up the courage?

But the implicit assumption is that her "feelings" are that she wants to get together with him. And there's never been any sign from her that she wants to. She wants something resolved - sure: this thing that first manifested itself when he confessed his inappropriate feelings for her in Divide and Conquer, when she did not do likewise and told him to leave it in the room. Only he hasn't left it in the room, because his girlfriend has obviously noticed that his attention is elsewhere for a start (one hopes he didn't call out Sam's name when they were in bed together )

I find it interesting that Jack is the only one who has actually done anything or said anything to the effect that one has romantic feelings for the other (his confession in D&V, grabbing her and kissing her when he can get away with it), but when it comes to interpretation it's Sam who gets characterised as the "feeler" with "feelings".

Something must be seriously up with Jack if his girlfriend asks the kind of questions she did. In contrast, there's no hint from Pete that he's noticed Sam's eyes are for another.

Jack's the piner, imo. Without a doubt. He's also the one who, as the superior officer, was in a position to do something about the awkward situation - i.e. move either her or himself - and didn't. As a result he's the one who has been unprofessional, while Sam despite being in the less powerful position has kept a lid on something that must have been difficult.

When Sam went to see Jack, she wanted it sorted. That was my interpretation, based on everything that had happened so far. She wants him to either get over her properly (and maybe remove any temptation that he also posed for her, if she is attracted to him) or organise a transfer if that wasn't possible. She's breaking up with Pete - a relationship which had kept the problem with Jack at bay - and now that's on its way out there's a danger it would start up again. She had to nip it in the bud. When she saw that he'd got female company, that removed the necessity as far as she knew. Embarrassing moment, sure, hence the awkwardness, but problem solved. She thought she didn't need to say any more.

What she didn't know, of course, was that the female company had already figured out that Jack was a lost cause.

And you do realise that now I've got Summer Love Sensation and All of Me Loves All of You going round in my head .... and, dreadful confession, I have pictorial evidence of me in my tartan cut-offs sporting an I love Woody scarf. True blackmail material ....Gah.
jd

Totally taking the blame for this revelation here

[Frostfox]

Regarding Heros,

There's no S/J ship in that episode! Gah!

I truely didn't like the hug between Sam and Jack in that episode.
In many ways a strong episode with a lot to say about sacrifices made, but that particular scene tainted it for me.
If it had come over as Sam grieving over her best friend being killed, it would have been fine but as I perceived it, it came over as Sam caring more about her CO than about Janet.

Which is, of course, the sad legacy of the writers playing about with the whole unfortunate affair. In early seasons, they were able to offer each other comfort as friends. And the writers went and spoiled it, took away the wise older man mentoring his gifted second in command and turned it sour and sexual. Without ever having any intention of following through. Sad.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Total word on the above, FF. Heroes ... a fine ep ruined by hapless writers who made Sam look as though she cared more about getting a hug from Jack than she did about losing Janet. And don't get me started on the whole Cassie "She's a tough kid, you know, she survives" disaster of a line. *headdesk*
jd (who has moved on from Summer Love Sensation and is now humming Bye Bye Baby and really wishes she wasn't)

[scarimor]

Regarding Heros,



I truely didn't like the hug between Sam and Jack in that episode.
In many ways a strong episode with a lot to say about sacrifices made, but that particular scene tainted it for me.
If it had come over as Sam grieving over her best friend being killed, it would have been fine but as I perceived it, it came over as Sam caring more about her CO than about Janet.

That's something I don't get. Sam and Teal'c hugged bit time in Heroes. That didn't make Sam look like she cared more about getting a Teal'c-hug than about grieving for her friend. To me, the hug with Jack was no different.

This is exactly what I meant when I said it's ironic that some people who don't like the S/J ship elements that were in the show see it in more scenes than others.

And if to you it makes Sam look like she didn't care enough about Janet, doesn't it also make you think that Jack looked like he didn't care enough about Janet? How come only Sam cops it?

That's what I meant by the double-standard being in the eye of the beholder (the viewer).

[Madeleine]

I think because people used to [want to] see Sam and Janet as best friends it was expected that Sam's grief would be huge and focussed on Janet. I certainly used to love the friendship they had, and although I know that TR and MS liked to play shippy hints I never saw D/J. I did think Daniel was close to Janet though and I thought his scene in the infirmary was perfect, and wonderful, and very moving. I somehow expected and wanted a little more from Sam than I did from Daniel (not in a double standard way, but in a SAM Goes To Janet's Daughter's Parties, Not Daniel sort of way) and what I saw from Sam was less. And however much I wanted to see Sam grieving over Janet, I couldn't see half as much as I'd hoped for, because she seemed all focussed on Jack.

That wasn't the worst shippy bit of Heroes though. The worst was when the reporter asked Sam if she and Jack were... (cue girly-crush blushing and tripping over words).

[KindlyKeller]

Jack's the piner, imo. Without a doubt.

I'm kind of shocked that anyone could come to that conclusion. I couldn't disagree any more with that. From "Grace" to "Heroes" to that awkward, humiliating moment in "Threads," Sam has by far been the piner. Jack was definitely into her, but it's always been much stronger coming from Sam.

[scarimor]

I think because people used to [want to] see Sam and Janet as best friends it was expected that Sam's grief would be huge and focussed on Janet. I certainly used to love the friendship they had, and although I know that TR and MS liked to play shippy hints I never saw D/J. I did think Daniel was close to Janet though and I thought his scene in the infirmary was perfect, and wonderful, and very moving. I somehow expected and wanted a little more from Sam than I did from Daniel (not in a double standard way, but in a SAM Goes To Janet's Daughter's Parties, Not Daniel sort of way) and what I saw from Sam was less. And however much I wanted to see Sam grieving over Janet, I couldn't see half as much as I'd hoped for, because she seemed all focussed on Jack.

I didn't see her focused on Jack at all. No more than she was focused on Teal'c. It's interesting, that perception, because the screen-time for the Sam/Teal'c moments is longer than for the Sam/Jack moments. And the gender-bias is there again - you don't mention that Jack is all focused on Sam. And it's Sam who cries and grieves over Janet while she's trying to write the words for her memorial, and it's Sam who stands up at the memorial and delivers it.

That said, the reaction to Janet's death over time was nothing like what it should have been from the entire team. She was kind of forgotten.

That wasn't the worst shippy bit of Heroes though. The worst was when the reporter asked Sam if she and Jack were... (cue girly-crush blushing and tripping over words).

Oh, that's a strong anti-ship moment Sam is really annoyed that he asks that question, though she's obviously trying not to be rude on camera and say what she really thinks of him. The indignance simmering in her expression and her reply is tangible. As is the complete surprise that she's asked the question at all - it's a real wtf moment. And she makes it very clear that there is nothing between them. I felt for her, and then I cheered for her. Go anti-ship Sam!

Interesting, isn't it, that her scripted words are anti-ship, but you interpret it as shippy. I wonder, if Jack had been put on the spot with such an inappropriate question and got annoyed and told the interviewer that he and Sam were just colleagues, would you have interpreted the moment as "shippy" and "boyish-crush blushing"?

Note that Sam did not blush in that scene, either

[scarimor]

I'm kind of shocked that anyone could come to that conclusion. I couldn't disagree any more with that. From "Grace" to "Heroes" to that awkward, humiliating moment in "Threads," Sam has by far been the piner. Jack was definitely into her, but it's always been much stronger coming from Sam.

This is a very common gender-biased perception in popular culture. It's perceived regardless of scripted dialogue and direction. Analysis of text invariably exposes the bias, and the interesting thing noted is that it's a bias usually perceived by women. Occasionally a male viewer expresses it too, though to be fair there's some debate over whether that's because male viewers simply pick up on the generally expressed view among females. People have tried to make an objective study of male perception but it's really quite hard to find male viewers who are both independent of the shared experience and holding an opinion. Females, on the other hand, express the bias in spades.

The unbalanced perception of Sam/Jack ship is an exemplary instance of the phenomenon. A detailed study of the series reveals dialogue and direction elements which hardly ever show interest from Sam towards Jack (and several elements to the contrary) - it's almost all the other way round with Jack expressing interest in Sam. Yet Sam is perceived as the one with the feelings and the "pining". It doesn't surprise me at all that the pattern is repeated from text to text. The only thing which is note-worthy about the SG-1 example is the eagerness of some viewers who don't actually like the S/J theme to over-interpret it when scenes are devoid of elements. The unfortunate result of that is perceived "damage" to Sam's character which doesn't bear scrutiny.

ETA: damn, I just checked your profile because I wondered from your handle whether I'd found a rare male, but I see that the "Mr" is not an article representing your good self

ETA again: btw, someone expressly asked one of the writers for Heroes whether anything in that episode was Sam/Jack shippy, and the response was along the lines of "wtf?" He was quite shocked that anyone would see S/J ship in an episode which not only had nothing to do with it, but was entirely devoted to a different (and imo far more interesting and worthy!) theme altogether. It just goes to show how powerful this gender-biased phenomenon is.

[jdjunkie]

Scarimor said: "That's something I don't get. Sam and Teal'c hugged bit time in Heroes. That didn't make Sam look like she cared more about getting a Teal'c-hug than about grieving for her friend. To me, the hug with Jack was no different."

To me, the hug was VERY different, First off, she didn't seek Teal'c out for the hug; she went looking for Jack. And by this stage, every time the two of them were alone on screen there was the heavy, fetid scent of ship in the air. If antis saw this scene as shippy it's because that what we were being led to think. I'd love to be able to think of that hug as friendship but because of all the crap we had thrown at us from D&C onwards, even if only intermittently, it tainted everything else between them.
All my perceptions, views and feelings are based on what I've seen on screen and and what I've seen on that screen doesn't tally with what you've seen, either in Threads, Lost City or Heroes. That's okay; be a ruddy boring world if we all saw things the same way.
But I have to ask, can you see how those of us who know bugger all about gender bias in popular culture et al see Sam's culpability in all this?
Do you feel Sam is at ALL to blame for any of it?
Is it shared culpability, or is it all down to a Jack who should know better?
Crikey. That's a lot of questions. I'm loving all this thinky stuff.
Anyway, who cares about Sam and Jack? In lots of other universes Sam is happily shacked up with Pete, or, as I prefer to think, happily sharing an open but loving relationship with Janet and Vala.
And Jack? Spoken for, obviously. Happily travelling the world accompanying Daniel on his digs.
jd

[scarimor]

But I have to ask, can you see how those of us who know bugger all about gender bias in popular culture et al see Sam's culpability in all this?

Absolutely. It's entirely predicted by the studies.

Do you feel Sam is at ALL to blame for any of it?

I have to translate that into a writing question. The answer's no, but then I have done the academia thing and I've done the pro writing thing, and as a result if I'd been writing SG-1 I would have known to make Sam's anti-ship angle much more explicit if that was what I wanted the viewers to take from it. Because of my experience I know how much stronger you have to make female characters in that regard to get over the gender-bias that many viewers (mostly female) have. You have to work harder to get it across for a female character because viewers give a male character a much easier ride.

For example, Teal'c sought out Sam in Heroes, but you haven't suggested that Teal'c was after anything shippy which damaged his character as a result. You reserve that notion for the female who went to see her CO.

And Jack? Spoken for, obviously. Happily travelling the world accompanying Daniel on his digs.

Indeed he is

[jdjunkie]

Sooo... looking at things in my predictable, gender-biased and, probably far less valid way, I'm wrong to the power of a thousand suns to see Sam as to blame in any way for the ship.
Okay.
So. You say Sam isn't to blame. At all. In any way.
Leaving aside the writers, because it kind of goes without saying insofar as there wouldn't BE a Jack and Sam without them, as characters, who IS to blame?
And as for the Heroes hug ... the problem with it for me is that it can't be seen in isolation. That is one obvious and very sad legacy of the ship.
jd, who isn't an academic but does write and edit professionally and still can't stand the ship.

[Nikki]

I'm a Sam/Jack shipper as you can probably tell from the sig. And I know I have no place here and you guys are all probably getting your virtual P-90's ready to shoot my ass down. However, I'm just going to go on record saying I am in NO WAY here to promote/advertise Sam/Jack as I know you lot are dead against it.

I wondered in here just to see why some people hate it so much to discuss it in an anti thread. The only couple I ship and want on-screen is Sam/Jack and ship some others for fun but nothing serious and don't care if it gets on-screen or not. However, after unending I think I am anti-D/V if that helps my reputation in this thread.

Well anyway, I noticed you guys were debating who likes/is attracted to/pines for/cares for who more. In my opinion, Jack's feelings for Sam are stronger than Sam's feelings for Jack.

The main reasons (obvious to everyone, not just shippers) are 'D&C' (he confessed), 'WoO' (he kissed her), 'BtS' (they remembered each other not the rest of the team, but he remembered 'feeling feelings') and 'Threads' (Kerry broke up with him because she thought he had feelings for someone else and the AF stood in the way, right after the S/J backyard scene and before he went to the isolation room to comfort her yet again). There are a lot of others but antis tend to argue about interpretation.

For Sam also 'D&C', as she also was thought to be a za'tarc so therefore must have been for that same reason as Jack as she's the one that thought of it. And 'Grace' - where her feelings were more than confirmed with the whole AF convo and the kiss.

Therefore there are a lot more Jack 'pinning' for Sam moments than to the contrary.

As for the 'Heroes' hug. Jack hugged/comforted Sam she didn't initiate it. So therefore the 'shippyness' is from his side not hers. And the only reason she went there was because she'd already lost a very close friend and could have lost Jack as well. And with the Sam/Teal'c hug, she initiated it, but as scarimor said, no one's claiming that Sam has a thing for Teal'c. I know you lot think ship is terrible but there shouldn't be gender bias involved as well and claims of 'ruining' a character because of it. IMO it didn't ruin either character, in fact gave them more depth, but I know you guys don't agree so I'm not going to argue the latter here.

I will understand if you guys want me to leave and I won't be offended as you're here to vent why you don't like Sam/Jack and you wouldn't want a shipper here.

[scarimor]

Sooo... looking at things in my predictable, gender-biased and, probably far less valid way, I'm wrong to the power of a thousand suns to see Sam as to blame in any way for the ship.

And this kind of miffed-sounding response is also very common "far less valid" than whose?

Leaving aside the writers, because it kind of goes without saying insofar as there wouldn't BE a Jack and Sam without them, as characters, who IS to blame?

Viewers, of course There's no one else left.

The confusion between story elements and interpreted citations is the crux of the matter. E.g. a viewer interprets a "girlie-blush" and cites it as evidence of Sam's affections for Jack. But there isn't a girlie-blush, not only because Sam's face doesn't change colour on screen, but also because there isn't an actor alive who can turn on a blush

Ok, that's just an example chosen for ease of illustration. Wager that if Jack had answered a 'is there anything more between you and your 2IC?' question with the same legitimate surprise, annoyance and denial, we would all be punching the air and citing it as proof that ship is dead, and no one would mention a blush. Sam cops for a weak and pining interpretation because she's a girl. It's endemic.

ETA: Oh, do you mean which character's "fault" is it? Well, if someone has to take the blame for canon ship which we did get (which I think is much less than you do), then Jack, because he is the superior officer with the power to do something about it and didn't. He is the one who made the romantic moves (kisses, confessions of inappropriate feelings etc.), not Sam. She never made a play for him, but even Kerry his girlfriend knew that he was pining for Sam. As the CO it was Jack's professional responsibility to remove one of them from the chain of command, especially after acknowledging that he felt that way about her. He had the clout, and he didn't.

And as for the Heroes hug ... the problem with it for me is that it can't be seen in isolation. That is one obvious and very sad legacy of the ship.

Yes, but while it's the writers who wrote it in previous episodes, bringing that as a legacy to that episode is your doing. Understandable, yes, but not an element of the episode. It means that you interpret a hug between Sam and Jack differently from a hug between Sam and Teal'c not because its motive is intended to be different (they're all grieving, that's what it's about), but because you impose another motive onto it based on your interpretation of different elements in different episodes, to your own dissatisfaction.

And don't worry, my background doesn't stop me from not being able to stand the ship either. I just don't torment myself with it when there ain't none Essentially, if there are no romantic-story elements in an episode, I'm in the clear. There are a few things I don't like about Heroes (they killed my favourite character!), but the complete absence of romantic elements between Sam and Jack is certainly not one of them

As for the 'Heroes' hug. Jack hugged/comforted Sam she didn't initiate it. So therefore the 'shippyness' is from his side not hers.

Da-dah! Shippers, of course, may see it despite lack of elements too. The difference is that they do so because they like it

But there it is again: if you want to see it as a shippy moment, there's no case for seeing it as being on Sam's part more than Jack's. The reverse if anything.