Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[DarkDesire]

Just ran away from yet ANOTHER 'must have S&J getting married and walking off hand in hand in to the sunset' posts on one of those 'What would you like to see before SG1 ends' 'Speculation on the DVD Movies' threads, I'm sure you know the ones

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

Ugh. See I'm not one of those romantics at all and any kind of "happily ever after, walk into the metaphorical sunset" ending turns me off big time. In fact, I honestly have no idea why someone would want to see something as lame and soapy as that. Gushy, overly romantic couples in general annoy me so I have no wish to see them play on this show.

I have no idea about the 'fallen in love' theory either because I missed it too. I mean come on, it's been 10 years. Just the idea that Sam's been pining after her boss for so many years is embarrassing to me. And unfortunately it does feel more one-sided because I've always felt like Sam was way more interested in it than Jack was. I hate that Jack and Sam can't interact without it becoming some kind of ship thing. The just mentioned Fire and Water is a good example because they had what I felt was a very nice comfort hug there when Sam remembered what happened to Daniel. It showed them there for each other in a way that their interactions can't show anymore which is a shame because now there is a self conscious feeling to all their scenes when it's just the two of them (Lost City just being one example).

[DarkDesire]

And those that liked the pairing could still read into it what they wanted to. And the rest of fandom could see the friendship and team bonding and it was SG1 and part of what made the show special and good.

Well, they seemed to be setting up Jack to retire at the end of season 8, as he didn't, I took that as a sign that the shippy rubbish was dead and buried and I could go back to watching Sam without cringing for her.

The problem is that I've seen some of those that like J/S say that the writers had better give them resolution because they've been waiting for all these years. However, there are just as many (possibly more) of us that DON'T want to see J/S together romantically. Either way they choose to go, the writers stand the risk of annoying a fair sized portion of the audience if they make any kind of definite statement. So IMO, the writers are actually better off leaving in only the kind of lines that are completely ambiguous. That way as you said, the shippers can still read into it if they want but all of us that don't want to see them together can still go on easily feeling that they're not a couple. One of my reasons against a J/S romantic ending is that I don't think they've done a good job in saying why J/S should be together and because of that, an ending where they are shown together would feel forced to me and even worse, done just to please a certain group which again feels unnecessary to me.

I have a feeling that there's a chance we'll know if Jack/Sam get together after this weekend given that the RDA and Amanda con is going on right now and there's no doubt in my mind that they'll be bombarded with those kind of questions. I hope for their own sake that some of the questions are about plenty of other things besides the J/S relationship too.

Atlantis spoilers:

Spoiler:

In Return Pt. 2, Jack references the fact that he'd retired but then got right back into it again because he didn't like retirement. Now obviously that's likely to be an RDA in-joke for us. However, looking at it from a Jack standpoint, the only way J/S could get together would be for one of them to retire (and even then I'd hate it but that's beside the point). So really I don't see the basis behind the idea that they're madly in love with each other if Jack won't stay retired when he had every opportunity to do so.

Then there's the fact that this episode includes one of those ambiguous lines. I rolled my eyes when Jack said 'next time bring Carter' but not because it really bothered me but rather because I knew how certain people would respond. It became a shippy statement for some people because the way they saw it, he had no reason to say that. However, to me, it wasn't shippy at all because I did see his reasoning. If it had been a translation that saved the day, he would've said 'next time bring Daniel', if they had needed more muscle power, he would've said 'next time bring Teal'c', but this time it was a McKay type solution, so logically he said 'next time bring Carter'. Because if anything, Jack barely knows the Atlantis crew so of course he'll have more trust in his team's abilities and this was more of a Carter problem. He felt she would've gotten them out of this situation faster than McKay did which to me has nothing to do with him thinking of her romantically and everything to do with him trusting her intelligence in these kinds of situations. (Again not to say that I don't think McKay did fine, but rather I'm just looking at it from Jack's point of view since he doesn't know McKay or the Atlantis crew very well.) Now if that kind of line is enough to get the shippers excited them IMO, they should stick to those kinds of lines if they really insist on throwing anything in there because as said before, then shippers can still read into it but we can easily see it as a team/friendship thing instead. Personally I'd rather they not put in any hints at all but I'm not putting all my trust on that happening.

[grasshopper64]

The problem is that I've seen some of those that like J/S say that the writers had better give them resolution because they've been waiting for all these years. However, there are just as many (possibly more) of us that DON'T want to see J/S together romantically. Either way they choose to go, the writers stand the risk of annoying a fair sized portion of the audience if they make any kind of definite statement. So IMO, the writers are actually better off leaving in only the kind of lines that are completely ambiguous. That way as you said, the shippers can still read into it if they want but all of us that don't want to see them together can still go on easily feeling that they're not a couple. One of my reasons against a J/S romantic ending is that I don't think they've done a good job in saying why J/S should be together and because of that, an ending where they are shown together would feel forced to me and even worse, done just to please a certain group which again feels unnecessary to me.

I have a feeling that there's a chance we'll know if Jack/Sam get together after this weekend given that the RDA and Amanda con is going on right now and there's no doubt in my mind that they'll be bombarded with those kind of questions. I hope for their own sake that some of the questions are about plenty of other things besides the J/S relationship too.

I really hope they stay away from it in any shape or form, I'd hate them to do something with it because they thought it was what most fans wanted, when the reality is they'd annoy a large number of fans who don't want S/J to be together. I think the truth is that the majority of more casual viewers
(the ones who don't come on forums) probably couldn't care less about the whole thing........

I'm not so sure I want to hear what comes out of that con. You know it's nice that RDA and AT get along well and everything, but I find myself not wanting to see any scenes with Sam and Jack together for fear of ship jumping up again.

Personally I think they get a little fed up with being asked about it all the time. AT did say in a recent interview that "she's more than someone's girl you know" I forget where I saw that.
RDA said that he wasn't sure it should be alluded to or something like that.



Atlantis spoilers:

Spoiler:

In Return Pt. 2, Jack references the fact that he'd retired but then got right back into it again because he didn't like retirement. Now obviously that's likely to be an RDA in-joke for us. However, looking at it from a Jack standpoint, the only way J/S could get together would be for one of them to retire (and even then I'd hate it but that's beside the point). So really I don't see the basis behind the idea that they're madly in love with each other if Jack won't stay retired when he had every opportunity to do so.

Then there's the fact that this episode includes one of those ambiguous lines. I rolled my eyes when Jack said 'next time bring Carter' but not because it really bothered me but rather because I knew how certain people would respond. It became a shippy statement for some people because the way they saw it, he had no reason to say that. However, to me, it wasn't shippy at all because I did see his reasoning. If it had been a translation that saved the day, he would've said 'next time bring Daniel', if they had needed more muscle power, he would've said 'next time bring Teal'c', but this time it was a McKay type solution, so logically he said 'next time bring Carter'. Because if anything, Jack barely knows the Atlantis crew so of course he'll have more trust in his team's abilities and this was more of a Carter problem. He felt she would've gotten them out of this situation faster than McKay did which to me has nothing to do with him thinking of her romantically and everything to do with him trusting her intelligence in these kinds of situations. (Again not to say that I don't think McKay did fine, but rather I'm just looking at it from Jack's point of view since he doesn't know McKay or the Atlantis crew very well.) Now if that kind of line is enough to get the shippers excited them IMO, they should stick to those kinds of lines if they really insist on throwing anything in there because as said before, then shippers can still read into it but we can easily see it as a team/friendship thing instead. Personally I'd rather they not put in any hints at all but I'm not putting all my trust on that happening.

Regarding The Return Part 2

Spoiler:

I agree, I didn't see that line as the least bit shippy, I mean he was with Sam on SG1 for 7 years, and he doesn't know the Atlantis team too well. He just recognises that Sam is good at cracking codes and "might" have been able to do a better job than McKay.

"Bring Carter next time" he'd hardly have said that to Weir if he supposedly had feelings for Sam/had something going on with her, but then again let shippers read something into it if they want to. I suppose if he'd mentioned Daniel I would have jumped on that, but I prefer to jump on him talking about "young strapping marines"

[scarimor]

I have a feeling that there's a chance we'll know if Jack/Sam get together after this weekend given that the RDA and Amanda con is going on right now and there's no doubt in my mind that they'll be bombarded with those kind of questions. I hope for their own sake that some of the questions are about plenty of other things besides the J/S relationship too.

Unlike the GABIT con (where AT takes anything the audience throw at her ) the questions for Avalon were screened and selected beforehand (RDA's a con-virgin). I doubt something which has been covered so many times before would be considered.

At GABIT the Q&A's were not dominated by ship at all. It came up once, if I remember, and AT repeated her view that Sam and Jack aren't suited to each other long-term, and that a one-night stand would just get it out of their system so they could forget it.

[Frostfox]

The problem is that I've seen some of those that like J/S say that the writers had better give them resolution because they've been waiting for all these years. However, there are just as many (possibly more) of us that DON'T want to see J/S together romantically. Either way they choose to go, the writers stand the risk of annoying a fair sized portion of the audience if they make any kind of definite statement.

Anyone, from any fannish faction, who thinks the writers and show makers owe them anything, are in for a rude awakening. TV producing isn't a democracy. All the show makers owe any of us is to produce the best show they can. The details are down to the writers and directors alone.

Personally I think they get a little fed up with being asked about it all the time. AT did say in a recent interview that "she's more than someone's girl you know" I forget where I saw that.
RDA said that he wasn't sure it should be alluded to or something like that.

Good for AT and RDA. That poor woman gets pestered about it all the time. Sam is way, way, way more than just someone's girl.

And remember the motto of the thread?
It's all about the team.

Unlike the GABIT con (where AT takes anything the audience throw at her ) the questions for Avalon were screened and selected beforehand (RDA's a con-virgin). I doubt something which has been covered so many times before would be considered.

At GABIT the Q&A's were not dominated by ship at all. It came up once, if I remember, and AT repeated her view that Sam and Jack aren't suited to each other long-term, and that a one-night stand would just get it out of their system so they could forget it.

Good for the GABIT goers, sounded like a splendid con (fan run cons are by far and away the best, I know of what I speak, I've been to about four cons a year since 1982, that's a lot of conventions, both pro and fan). But I'm still not convinced I know enough of the people going, I'm used to walking into the bar and knowing 70% of the attendees (programme items? What are they? The traditional British con runs about the bar which is where all the authors and fans hang out together as equals) and I don't enjoy cons as much where I don't know many people. Even Worldcons in the USA, I know so many conrunners and US fans, I can still walk into a room and there will be people there I know, fans are my comfort zone.

I can understand screening questions for RDA. Handling a roomful of fans is an artform which has to be learnt and I suspect there were some heightened emotions, with RDA so seldom interacting directly with fans.

The main reason I didn't fancy Avalon was money (awful lot of money for just one day, big UK Eastercon with 600-1000 attendees is about £45 for the whole 4 days) and the split site. As I said, I love meeting fellow fans as much if not more than the pros, if you are all in separate hotels, no where near the site of the con, it's so much harder to find people. Plus November in Somerset. Not going to be hot and sunny (though it's a beautiful late autumn day up here in t'frozen north at the moment, must go and hang the washing out!) and it's even less fun trying to find fellow fans when it's pouring down with rain and cold to boot.
And I was worried that it would degenerate into Shipfest, which from reading initial reports, I am happy to say that fear appears to be unfounded. Good for the fans at Avalon too!
There's far more interesting things to ask RDA about Jack than who he's shagging. In fact, I don't think I'd want to ask him about Stargate at all. At Vancouver con in March, I was far more interested in what Beu Bridges had to say about his dad and life in Hollywood and working with Taylor and Burton than Stargate.

FF

[grasshopper64]

Having read some reports of Avalon sounds like there was a fair amount of non-stargate stuff talked about, and not so much of the ship

The funniest thing I read was when asked what does Jack know about Sam that no-one else does, RDA said that he knows Sam's really a man LOL

[Frostfox]

The funniest thing I read was when asked what does Jack know about Sam that no-one else does, RDA said that he knows Sam's really a man LOL

Well, that put my mind in The Bad Place! Not that it takes much.

Rar for RDA!!

FF

[JessM]

Ugh. See I'm not one of those romantics at all and any kind of "happily ever after, walk into the metaphorical sunset" ending turns me off big time. In fact, I honestly have no idea why someone would want to see something as lame and soapy as that. Gushy, overly romantic couples in general annoy me so I have no wish to see them play on this show.

Neither am I. Well, maybe a tiny part of me is a bit of a romantic at heart, but any romance I turn to fanfiction for. I am not interested in seeing it on the show at all. I want to see Stargate, not Stardate or As the Stargate Turns. I'm fine with everyone being friends but that's it.

I have no idea about the 'fallen in love' theory either because I missed it too. I mean come on, it's been 10 years. Just the idea that Sam's been pining after her boss for so many years is embarrassing to me. And unfortunately it does feel more one-sided because I've always felt like Sam was way more interested in it than Jack was. I hate that Jack and Sam can't interact without it becoming some kind of ship thing. The just mentioned Fire and Water is a good example because they had what I felt was a very nice comfort hug there when Sam remembered what happened to Daniel. It showed them there for each other in a way that their interactions can't show anymore which is a shame because now there is a self conscious feeling to all their scenes when it's just the two of them (Lost City just being one example).

Same here. I've heard some people say they saw it back in S1. I guess I missed that too - must be those darned noromo-colored glasses of mine. Someone said they saw sparks when they first met in COTG... a few sparks of tension (and not UST) do not a romance make IMO. Still others mention Broca Divide as evidence. I could give hundreds of reasons for why Sam "seduced" Jack there, and not one of them includes that she had big-time romantic feelings for him.

I agree with you... If Sam has been pining away for her boss for 10 years, it demeans her character to me. It shows that she can't move on, and it does seem very one-sided. I didn't see the hug in Fire and Water as being shippy... I saw it as one friend comforting another who was upset when she realized what happened to another friend. I thought it was a nice friendship moment, nothing more. But the fact that people insist it's ship almost ruins it.

One thing I find a little funny is that I've seen some people say that Singularity is a shippy S/J ep. Um, I must have missed that. Sam doesn't spend much time in Jack's presence at all in that ep. She's mostly with Daniel and Janet while Jack and Teal'c are on Cassie's planet. I guess it might be because of the way he says "Sam, can you hear me?" when she's in the room with Cassie, but they were all worried about what could happen. I didn't see that as ship at all.

It's kind of sad that the self-conscious, kind of force (IMO) shippy stuff has to replace the nice, caring friendship stuff.

[Frostfox]

It's kind of sad that the self-conscious, kind of force (IMO) shippy stuff has to replace the nice, caring friendship stuff.

It's the friendship between the four characters which made SG1 so special, so magical. Nothing else.

FF

[JessM]

It's the friendship between the four characters which made SG1 so special, so magical. Nothing else.

FF

Definitely bears repeating.

[anulus]

I cant agree that the "ship" was all one way. Jack himself admitted that he cared for Sam "way more than he was supposed to". In Window of Opportunity he took the "opportunity" to kiss Sam. She didnt kiss him. Also at the end of Underground they both looked upset that they had to go back to Colonel and Major.

[Frostfox]

I cant agree that the "ship" was all one way. Jack himself admitted that he cared for Sam "way more than he was supposed to". In Window of Opportunity he took the "opportunity" to kiss Sam. She didnt kiss him. Also at the end of Underground they both looked upset that they had to go back to Colonel and Major.

Don't care if the relationship was on her side, his side or both.
It was clichéd, dull, rife with the Elektra complex, totally lacking conviction and chemistry and a blight on the career of a fabulous millitary officer and the massacre of the integrity of two wonderful characters every time it reared it's ugly head. Oh, and against the oaths both parties took for their country so never going to be shown anyway if Stargate wanted to keep in favour with the US Airforce.

And you really think if you asked Jack he wouldn't confess that he also cares for Teal'c and Daniel 'more than he's supposed to'? I seem to remember them hanging about in the blast zone waiting for Sam and Jack while they were making cow eyes at each other in that episode. Do you think he would have left Daniel? Teal'c? Or that any of them would have left another behind?

All the team is 'too close' and we bless them for it, it's what made the show for me.

FF

[anulus]

Don't care if the relationship was on her side, his side or both.
It was clichéd, dull, rife with the Elektra complex, totally lacking conviction and chemistry and a blight on the career of a fabulous millitary officer and the massacre of the integrity of two wonderful characters every time it reared it's ugly head. Oh, and against the oaths both parties took for their country so never going to be shown anyway if Stargate wanted to keep in favour with the US Airforce.

And you really think if you asked Jack he wouldn't confess that he also cares for Teal'c and Daniel 'more than he's supposed to'? I seem to remember them hanging about in the blast zone waiting for Sam and Jack while they were making cow eyes at each other in that episode. Do you think he would have left Daniel? Teal'c? Or that any of them would have left another behind?

All the team is 'too close' and we bless them for it, it's what made the show for me.

FF

Cant agree with you but respect your right to your opinion.

Why did he kiss her then in Window of Opportunity? He didnt kiss Daniel!!!!

[JessM]

I cant agree that the "ship" was all one way. Jack himself admitted that he cared for Sam "way more than he was supposed to". In Window of Opportunity he took the "opportunity" to kiss Sam. She didnt kiss him. Also at the end of Underground they both looked upset that they had to go back to Colonel and Major.

I think the comment itself was pretty vague. I mean, caring for someone "way more than he was supposed to" could mean anything. Heck, he could have said that about Daniel or Teal'c if they were in that situation instead of Sam. He probably cared about all of his teammates more than he should - they were all like a family.

I personally didn't see them looking upset that they had to go back to Colonel and Major, but anyone could read into that whatever they want, I suppose.

I realize not everyone sees it that way and we all have a right to our opinions. But that is the way I see it.

[JessM]

Don't care if the relationship was on her side, his side or both.
It was clichéd, dull, rife with the Elektra complex, totally lacking conviction and chemistry and a blight on the career of a fabulous millitary officer and the massacre of the integrity of two wonderful characters every time it reared it's ugly head. Oh, and against the oaths both parties took for their country so never going to be shown anyway if Stargate wanted to keep in favour with the US Airforce.

And you really think if you asked Jack he wouldn't confess that he also cares for Teal'c and Daniel 'more than he's supposed to'? I seem to remember them hanging about in the blast zone waiting for Sam and Jack while they were making cow eyes at each other in that episode. Do you think he would have left Daniel? Teal'c? Or that any of them would have left another behind?

All the team is 'too close' and we bless them for it, it's what made the show for me.

FF

All I can say is this: