Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Crow T. Robot]

There are many, many words I'd use for Sam's looks (graceful, beautiful for example) but the idea of her being dainty, delicate or petite... How tall is AT? Petite? Delicate? Dainty? Part of AT's attractiveness is that she's not wafer thin like some actresses. Still, I've read fanfic describing Daniel in those terms too! And that I just can't get my head round..

Like I stated barely toping 5’2 I can’t wrap my mind around Sam being “Petite” or “Delicate” much LESS Daniel. Now our favorite little doctor? Janet I can follow someone calling “Petite”. She’s the only one of the characters in my book that really qualifies.

Hey I’m still trying to wrap my mind around how some writers describe Daniel as “Lanky”. I mean if anyone fits under the description of “Lanky” it’s more Jack in my book. He might be taller than Daniel by a couple of inches but Daniel’s without a doubt built broader.

That’s just my world view at humble 5’2.

I've never read any S/J, not my cup of tea at all but it's interesting that Jack gets emasculated, the dynamics of fanfic are very interesting.

LOL! I read anything IF the male-point of view is done well.

The funny thing is if you go between a lot of Slash and Shipper fic you could plug and play Daniel and Sam a lot of the time. Coming in to the on-line fandom and fan fic recently I’m going to admit I don’t get the idol Sam worship in Shipper fan fiction. And I really don’t understand the Daniel worship “The universe falls in love with him” in slasher fic either. I don’t get the unfeeling, (I’ll give them repressed), nasty Jack that takes Daniel/Sam for granted that keeps popping up

Here’s another fine example of how female characters and male characters are written differently. Let’s rewrite “A 100 Days”. How would have audiences reacted if it had been Sam stranded off world with only the cloths on her back, winter is coming, with her totally dependent on her host and “Larry” came to her one day announcing it was time to put out because he wanted a baby from her?

Some how I don’t think Sam would have gotten half the flack that Jack got in various both Shipper and Slash stories.

[Crow T. Robot]

But, but, it's a LOVE story, don't you see? They did this test on blogthings and came out as soulmates.

Ah.... That explains everything. A test on blogthings will tell you if two people are compatible to spend the rest of their lives together. (Hand smacks forehead) How could I have missed that one.

There’s my first problem: I don’t believe in soulmates. I’m a firm believer that love and relationships take work. Love is the day you wake up next to the lump drooling on your pillow, you wonder what the hell you were thinking, and come home that night anyway.

Sam O'Neill (forget her fabuous career, it's so lovely, she can have lots of babies instead). It's written in the stars so we don't need to worry about the nasty reality of how compatible these people actually are! They are beautiful together, love will conquer all!!(inculding good taste, common sense and that oaths sworn by two members of the US Airforce).

Never mind the 100,000 pound pink elephant standing in the middle of the room sh*ting on the carpet huh?

Not to mention Sam’s what.... Maybe 3 for years from her 20 and a big fat military pension? Makes perfect sense for her to walk away with that little time to go.

Oh, and you missed out the potential Electra Complex in the above assessment of the various hurdles to a relationship, that was always one which really squicked me out.

LOL! I didn’t miss it. Freud and Jung just make my head hurt.

There’s enough there with behavior patterns and coping methods alone to question how long they’d last before the blow each other part. If you’re interested an excellent book to pick up is “It Will Never Happen To Me—Children of Alcoholics – As Youngsters, Adolescents, and Adults”. It really does shed some light on why Sam acts the way she does with the childhood the writers implied she had.

Not to mention Sam's ticking biological clock. Jack's pretty good with kids but would he really want another, given the trauma of loosing Charlie? Some people do, others don't but it's not a given that he'd want any more kids.

Putting Charlie aside how about ask the logical question of would a man in his 50’s want to be starting all over again? Any kid Jack has now he would be what 70 ?? when this kid graduates from high school. Jack’s friends are looking at where they want to spend their retirement not picking out pre-schools.

Oh, don't get me started on that can o' worms, I don't like their potential relationship any more than Sam 'n Sir.

FF

Nice to know that I’m not the only one.

[grasshopper64]

Here’s another fine example of how female characters and male characters are written differently. Let’s rewrite “A 100 Days”. How would have audiences reacted if it had been Sam stranded off world with only the cloths on her back, winter is coming, with her totally dependent on her host and “Larry” came to her one day announcing it was time to put out because he wanted a baby from her?

Some how I don’t think Sam would have gotten half the flack that Jack got in various both Shipper and Slash stories.

It's a good point. Laira got a lot of flack from shippers(and you could say still does) and Jack apparently didn't give Sam the time of day - he didn't think he was coming home.
I seem to remember RDA saying that he wanted or they were thinking of doing a storyline where Laira had Jack's kid. Now that would have been an interesting storyline, although like much of this stuff I don't think they would have done it justice, poor kid probably would have been forgotten about after two eps, plus it would've got in the way of ship

Like has been said earlier I don't see Jack wanting to do the settling down/having kids thing again. I'm not so sure that's what Sam wants either.
I'm glad they haven't had Jack retire. He would be bored if he did and hopefully come the end of S10 he won't have and there will be no alluding to it/anything hinting at ship......

[Frostfox]

It's a good point. Laira got a lot of flack from shippers(and you could say still does) and Jack apparently didn't give Sam the time of day - he didn't think he was coming home.
I seem to remember RDA saying that he wanted or they were thinking of doing a storyline where Laira had Jack's kid. Now that would have been an interesting storyline, although like much of this stuff I don't think they would have done it justice, poor kid probably would have been forgotten about after two eps, plus it would've got in the way of ship

Like has been said earlier I don't see Jack wanting to do the settling down/having kids thing again. I'm not so sure that's what Sam wants either.
I'm glad they haven't had Jack retire. He would be bored if he did and hopefully come the end of S10 he won't have and there will be no alluding to it/anything hinting at ship......

I'd totaly forgotten Laria. One of the things l like least about the writers of this show is that they drop threads, such as Laria, The Nox, Daniel's Grandad, the Ree'too. Non of these will ever be heard from again and it's such as waste.

Wanting kids is by no means universal. Of my close friends, the number having kids is quite low; very low by comparison to the average in the UK. Which is a bit of a bugger as some of them are in the top percentile for intelligence (most of 'em are university graduates, middle class, upper income, typical SF fans in the UK) they should be having kids but more and more of them are choosing not to.
Me? I don't have a maternal bone in my body, never have had. I like kids well enough but only other peoples, kids like me too. But no intentions of enriching the gene pool at this end, thank you very much.

Amanda looks to be a fabulous Mum, Sam, I'm less sure off, her career is very important to her, no criticism there, her career has saved the planet on more than one occasion. If they'd wanted to show her hankering for kids they had an excellent opportunity to show her with or just drop lines for her regarding Cassie.

Hadn't thought of Jack's age regarding kids but that's a point too, some men reach an age when they just decide enough is enough. My best friend and her second husband had thought very hard about having a child between them, both haveing near adult kids from previous marrages but decided it wasn't the best thing for them or the kid and he's a good 10 - 15 years younger than Jack.

Kids, like love, are a decision that adults make. There's no right or wrong answer but there's also no automatic assumption that it's every single person on the planets goal in life.

FF

[JessM]

note: I did find that Cam and Sam scene mildly amusing in MM, but at the same time that I was smiling, I was also wondering to myself if I'd find it mildly amusing the other way round?

Of course, if I thought there was any danger the writers were going to start shipping Sam and Cam in the show, I'd have probably puked instead. Fortunately I don't. I think this one is going to be safely contained in fanfic, if AT has her way.

That's good to know - I would bet it would stay in fanfic as well. I remember AT saying in an interview that Sam and Cam have a rapport but she doesn't see it as anymore than that, and wouldn't want it to go past that.

[JessM]

But, but, it's a LOVE story, don't you see? They did this test on blogthings and came out as soulmates. Sam O'Neill (forget her fabuous career, it's so lovely, she can have lots of babies instead). It's written in the stars so we don't need to worry about the nasty reality of how compatible these people actually are! They are beautiful together, love will conquer all!!(inculding good taste, common sense and that oaths sworn by two members of the US Airforce).
Oh, and you missed out the potential Electra Complex in the above assessment of the various hurdles to a relationship, that was always one which really squicked me out.

Test on blogthings... *snicker*!! Yes, and there is also the proof that they are together in other realities (though don't mention the fact that Earth was in trouble in each one) it is just so MEANT TO BE!!

Not to mention Sam's ticking biological clock. Jack's pretty good with kids but would he really want another, given the trauma of loosing Charlie? Some people do, others don't but it's not a given that he'd want any more kids.

Very good point. Just because he's good with kids doesn't necessarily mean he'd want any more.

Oh, don't get me started on that can o' worms, I don't like their potential relationship any more than Sam 'n Sir.

FF

Ditto. I get the same argument from the Vanielites - they're just SO meant to be (talk about cliche...).

[JessM]

Like I stated barely toping 5’2 I can’t wrap my mind around Sam being “Petite” or “Delicate” much LESS Daniel. Now our favorite little doctor? Janet I can follow someone calling “Petite”. She’s the only one of the characters in my book that really qualifies.

Hey I’m still trying to wrap my mind around how some writers describe Daniel as “Lanky”. I mean if anyone fits under the description of “Lanky” it’s more Jack in my book. He might be taller than Daniel by a couple of inches but Daniel’s without a doubt built broader.

That’s just my world view at humble 5’2.

As a fellow 5'2 girl I agree. I can't see how Sam qualifies as "petite" let alone Daniel. I'm probably being presumptuous but it seems to me that some people who describe Daniel as "petite" and "lanky" (and I agree with you - I think Jack would qualify as lanky more than Daniel) are those that aren't fond of the "old" Daniel. They portray him as a bumbling, klutzy fool as well as a constant damsel in distress. I know they've had to rescue him from trouble quite a bit back in the old days, but I think "damsel in distress" might be a bit OTT.

[Crow T. Robot]

I'd totaly forgotten Laria. One of the things l like least about the writers of this show is that they drop threads, such as Laria, The Nox, Daniel's Grandad, the Ree'too. Non of these will ever be heard from again and it's such as waste FF

I’m proably one of the few non-shippers out there that found the whole situation with Laria creepy. The whole situation from her putting a time limit to Jack’s grief to her wanting his baby just made my skin crawl.

One reason why I never understood the flack that Slashers and Shippers gave Jack over the incident. I never saw Jack as “cheating” on either Sam or Daniel. I saw Jack more hooking himself to survive because he was surrounded by people that really didn’t trust him, didn’t even own the clothes on his back, and winter was coming. Jack was in NO position to turn Laria down.

[Crow T. Robot]

They portray him as a bumbling, klutzy fool as well as a constant damsel in distress. I know they've had to rescue him from trouble quite a bit back in the old days, but I think "damsel in distress" might be a bit OTT.

It is. If you going to use any words to describe the early Daniel, I think “naïve” is the word you are looking for. He didn’t live by Jack’s creed of “In God We Trust. Everyone else better dang well keep your hands where we can see them”.

I wrote if off to various different back grounds. There are very few groups out there that’s using 11-14 year old boys as soldiers or strapping bombs to babies to kill academics unlike US military officers. Jack and Daniel have very different world views.

[scarimor]

I’m proably one of the few non-shippers out there that found the whole situation with Laria creepy.

Count me in the group.

[Dani347]

One reason why I never understood the flack that Slashers and Shippers gave Jack over the incident. I never saw Jack as “cheating” on either Sam or Daniel.

Do you mean flack in fanfic or on message boards? I can maybe excuse fanfic since it's fantasy and people can retell the stories their way. But, on messageboards, I'm assuming they'd be saying the "real" Jack was cheating on Sam or Daniel. Which makes no sense, since in canon, Jack didn't have a relationship with either of them. Kind of hard to cheat on someone when you're not involved with them.

[JessM]

It is. If you going to use any words to describe the early Daniel, I think “naïve” is the word you are looking for. He didn’t live by Jack’s creed of “In God We Trust. Everyone else better dang well keep your hands where we can see them”.

I wrote if off to various different back grounds. There are very few groups out there that’s using 11-14 year old boys as soldiers or strapping bombs to babies to kill academics unlike US military officers. Jack and Daniel have very different world views.

Yep, that's the word I'm looking for, definitely. I think it describes the early Daniel a lot better.

[Crow T. Robot]

Do you mean flack in fanfic or on message boards? I can maybe excuse fanfic since it's fantasy and people can retell the stories their way. But, on messageboards, I'm assuming they'd be saying the "real" Jack was cheating on Sam or Daniel. Which makes no sense, since in canon, Jack didn't have a relationship with either of them. Kind of hard to cheat on someone when you're not involved with them.

I should have clarified there. Fan fiction-- Talk about Jack on flambé.

-Sarcasm Alert-

You see in many a fan fiction a nasty insensitive Jack hopped in to Laria’s waiting arms when a fragile, under appreciated, over worked Daniel/Sam dang near worked themselves to death to try to get him home again.

[Dani347]

Ah, well, since I don't read slash or J/S ship, I would not have come across any stories like that. Unless it was a story that sneaked a relationship in under the guise of a team or Daniel fic. Which has been done before, to my great annoyance (mainly J/S ship)

[DarkDesire]

But, but, it's a LOVE story, don't you see? They did this test on blogthings and came out as soulmates. Sam O'Neill (forget her fabuous career, it's so lovely, she can have lots of babies instead). It's written in the stars so we don't need to worry about the nasty reality of how compatible these people actually are!

Not to mention Sam's ticking biological clock. Jack's pretty good with kids but would he really want another, given the trauma of loosing Charlie? Some people do, others don't but it's not a given that he'd want any more kids

About the kid thing, I'm with those of you who can't see Jack wanting to have another kid. I know that there are many people out there that lose a child and still move on to have another one and I'm happy for them. But it wouldn't be in character for Jack to be one of those people, at least not to me. I think it's also kind of a romanticized outlook that some of the shippers have in regards to this. I've seen the argument made in favor of them having kids because they think this is the perfect way to "heal" Jack from the loss of Charlie and of course it creates a way for Sam to save him from his "demons" in regards to this issue. I don't know about anyone else but that way of looking at it is almost as bad to me as those fanfics out there that have Daniel or Sam "healed" from a rape by sleeping with Jack.

About the whole issue of them actually working as a couple, I agree that I've never seen any good argument as to why they'd work. I've said a lot of the reasons I don't see them working (and why I don't want to see it either) but here's another one. Someone on the thread commenting on the DVD movies a couple of weeks back said that they felt it would be fine to just give a 5 minute mention saying that Jack/Sam are together and leave it at that. They claimed that this should make both shippers and anti-shippers happy because it would still be canon then but there wouldn't be a lot of it. The problem I have with even that is it wouldn't technically be just 5 minutes even if that's how long it's onscreen for. Because as soon as they would say, 'yes J/S are together in that way', then it would unfortunately completely change how I look at them when they're interacting and even how I think of them in general. I would feel like it completely changes the dynamics of the original four and I don't like that.

On top of that, I'm still kind of hoping that we might finally see a little bit of RDA in action again either in the last episode or one/both of the movies. However, there's no way I could suspend my belief if they make J/S a couple and still try and have him on the team. I'm too in agreement with the regulations to want to see that and again it would still mess up the team dynamics for me. If they're going to bring Jack back and have more obnoxious J/S stuff then sad to say but I'd rather not see him at all.

Spoiler:

And I'm truthfully a bit anxious about what kind of interactions there will be in The Shroud.

At the moment, I'm just really hoping that the 200th episode is the closest we come to a wedding (or even to having another mention because I'd be happiest if they never mentioned the idea again onscreen). That little bit turned out better than I thought because they did joke about the whole Sir/Carter bit and they even have Sam with long hair (because you know military Sam wouldn't be doing that so we have to have girly long haired Sam instead). The 200th episode pointed out some of the things I find so ridiculous about the idea of Jack/Sam and I'd hate to see them make the relationship canon just because it's the end of the series so they don't have to worry about how to make it work anymore anyway.