Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

There was a fabulous Meta discussion on LJ about Teh Romance being a far more important character in S/J than the characters themselves, that they get warped to fit Teh Romance, whether it would be in character or not.

http://surrealphantast.livejournal.c...43198#t3843198

Splash the Cat's interesting and insightful dissection of the S/J obsession.

And I feel compelled to reitarate again that I have no beef with the S/J fans, as long as they don't try to impose their reading of the characters on every other fan they come across, S/J is not a religion, what does it matter if other fans have different readings of the characters? We are not heretics, we all get different things from the show, there is no right or wrong about enjoying SG1.

FF

[DEM]

And I feel compelled to reitarate again that I have no beef with the S/J fans, as long as they don't try to impose their reading of the characters on every other fan they come across. S/J is not a religion....

Down with proselytising!

[Frostfox]

Down with proselytising!

Burn the heretic!

The 'One True Way' of fandom is something which is new to me. The only media fandom I've been involved with before was Star Trek DS9 and there was no animosity between the various relationship pairings. The nearest we got was a little frission between Jadzia/Julian and Jadzia/Worf fans but it was nothing like the SG1 fan wars and there was no tension at all between the slash/ship fans. It was rather a shock to my delicate sensibilities ( ) when I came across the fanwars in SG1 fandom.

FF

[JessM]

About the whole issue of them actually working as a couple, I agree that I've never seen any good argument as to why they'd work. I've said a lot of the reasons I don't see them working (and why I don't want to see it either) but here's another one. Someone on the thread commenting on the DVD movies a couple of weeks back said that they felt it would be fine to just give a 5 minute mention saying that Jack/Sam are together and leave it at that. They claimed that this should make both shippers and anti-shippers happy because it would still be canon then but there wouldn't be a lot of it. The problem I have with even that is it wouldn't technically be just 5 minutes even if that's how long it's onscreen for. Because as soon as they would say, 'yes J/S are together in that way', then it would unfortunately completely change how I look at them when they're interacting and even how I think of them in general. I would feel like it completely changes the dynamics of the original four and I don't like that.

I stuck my head in that thread some time ago, but I don't recall that post - I guess they made it after the last time I looked. That said, I find the notion that a 5-minute mention of Sam 'n Sir would make both shippers and anti-shippers happy totally ridiculous. The shippers would no doubt be happy (well except for the ones that want to see Jack and Sam making out for the whole time), but this anti-shipper would not be. Sorry, "there wouldn't be a lot of it" isn't good enough for me. It would solidify the whole thing as canon and leave a bad taste in my mouth. Like you said, it would change how I look at them and I think it would change the dynamics of the original team. I mean, just the fact that they've stuck Daniel and Vala together in so many episodes, has changed the dynamics of the team for me. Not sure if it would be the same thing or as bad with S/J, but I still would not be happy.

On top of that, I'm still kind of hoping that we might finally see a little bit of RDA in action again either in the last episode or one/both of the movies. However, there's no way I could suspend my belief if they make J/S a couple and still try and have him on the team. I'm too in agreement with the regulations to want to see that and again it would still mess up the team dynamics for me. If they're going to bring Jack back and have more obnoxious J/S stuff then sad to say but I'd rather not see him at all.

Spoiler:

And I'm truthfully a bit anxious about what kind of interactions there will be in The Shroud.

Same here. It would not seem realistic to me to have them be a couple and on the team. I think it'd have to occur in some bizarro world where no one gives a whit about regulations (although, with a few of the things I've seen the past few seasons, I kind of wonder...). I'm with you as far as

Spoiler:

The Shroud is concerned. I thought someone said that Jack would have a big part in what eventually happens to Daniel, so I really hope we get to see some good J/D stuff. It's long overdue. If they just throw in a tiny smidgen and have it completely overshadowed by J/S, I'll be pretty ill.

At the moment, I'm just really hoping that the 200th episode is the closest we come to a wedding (or even to having another mention because I'd be happiest if they never mentioned the idea again onscreen). That little bit turned out better than I thought because they did joke about the whole Sir/Carter bit and they even have Sam with long hair (because you know military Sam wouldn't be doing that so we have to have girly long haired Sam instead). The 200th episode pointed out some of the things I find so ridiculous about the idea of Jack/Sam and I'd hate to see them make the relationship canon just because it's the end of the series so they don't have to worry about how to make it work anymore anyway.

Me too. I remember getting a bit worried when I read spoilers and all the signs seemed to be pointing to a Sam 'n Sir wedding. I thought, so the episode is supposed to be in good fun, mocking themselves, but what if they play it straight for this wedding to throw the shippers a bone for the big 200th episode? I'm really glad it wasn't more than what we saw. To me, making it canon would almost seem like a copout just to please a faction of fans. They can argue all they want that the subtext has been there over the seasons, so the consummation of the relationship is justified - but I just don't see it. The only things I saw were some pretty awkward moments that stuck out like a sore thumb in places.

[grasshopper64]

About the whole issue of them actually working as a couple, I agree that I've never seen any good argument as to why they'd work. I've said a lot of the reasons I don't see them working (and why I don't want to see it either) but here's another one. Someone on the thread commenting on the DVD movies a couple of weeks back said that they felt it would be fine to just give a 5 minute mention saying that Jack/Sam are together and leave it at that. They claimed that this should make both shippers and anti-shippers happy because it would still be canon then but there wouldn't be a lot of it. The problem I have with even that is it wouldn't technically be just 5 minutes even if that's how long it's onscreen for. Because as soon as they would say, 'yes J/S are together in that way', then it would unfortunately completely change how I look at them when they're interacting and even how I think of them in general. I would feel like it completely changes the dynamics of the original four and I don't like that.

I saw that thread and completely agree. You do get a lot of shippers demanding a "resolution" for S/J, but like you say even a small mention of it, would completely overshadow the whole thing. You know the regulations are still there, let's not have Jack retiring or anything like that. I know nothing about USAF regs, but I think I read somewhere that even if Jack retired it wouldn't necessarily clear the way for any relationship between them to be ok.
(I might have got that wrong and I can't remember for the life of me where I saw that so don't quote me on it!)

In any case the final ep/movies should be about the team, whoever that is exactly doing what they do best, and not wasting time on any ship.

On top of that, I'm still kind of hoping that we might finally see a little bit of RDA in action again either in the last episode or one/both of the movies. However, there's no way I could suspend my belief if they make J/S a couple and still try and have him on the team. I'm too in agreement with the regulations to want to see that and again it would still mess up the team dynamics for me. If they're going to bring Jack back and have more obnoxious J/S stuff then sad to say but I'd rather not see him at all.

Spoiler:

And I'm truthfully a bit anxious about what kind of interactions there will be in The Shroud.

It seems unknown as to if RDA will be in the season finale. True he was in Vancouver doing that charity thing the week it was being filmed but if he is in it TPTB have done a good job of keeping it quiet

Anyway much as I'd like to see him, I agree if it means ship I'd rather not.
Then again I do honestly think they've moved away from it. JM did say there would be no ship in S10, although that was some time ago now, and I seem to remember him or someone else saying that S/J ship was over and done with. (again don't quote me on it just something I recall)

I don't think it will come up in The Shroud, it is about Daniel's storyline, but then again this is TPTB, all it takes is one line to ruin an episode
Like the whole "not exactly" line in S9, the furore that caused.

[Jace021903]

There was a fabulous Meta discussion on LJ about Teh Romance being a far more important character in S/J than the characters themselves, that they get warped to fit Teh Romance, whether it would be in character or not.

http://surrealphantast.livejournal.c...43198#t3843198

Splash the Cat's interesting and insightful dissection of the S/J obsession.

And I feel compelled to reitarate again that I have no beef with the S/J fans, as long as they don't try to impose their reading of the characters on every other fan they come across, S/J is not a religion, what does it matter if other fans have different readings of the characters? We are not heretics, we all get different things from the show, there is no right or wrong about enjoying SG1.

FF

Wow, some interesting points. Just goes to show that not all fans of a particular pairing want the same thing.

I do think it is telling that there is very little Sam-centered gen fic around.

[Crow T. Robot]

Ah, well, since I don't read slash or J/S ship, I would not have come across any stories like that. Unless it was a story that sneaked a relationship in under the guise of a team or Daniel fic. Which has been done before, to my great annoyance (mainly J/S ship)

Just wait until you see what Daniel/Vala shippers will do to Daniel.

If you have any idea what they’ve done to Jack in some stories..... I’m SO sorry.

Just wait until you’re reading a story on a list and so far it’s clear of ship and then they drop it in the middle of a story. I’m still trying to claw my eyes out from a section in a story where Sam’s ogling a 4 year old Jack. YUCK!

Sorry a almost 40 year old Sam thinking about a 4 year old in those terms or hitting on Jack’s 17 year old clone not my cup of tea—BIG TIME. For me it boarders on disturbing and I wonder what the hell their Beta’s were thinking.


Crow runs screaming!

[Crow T. Robot]

There was a fabulous Meta discussion on LJ about Teh Romance being a far more important character in S/J than the characters themselves, that they get warped to fit Teh Romance, whether it would be in character or not.FF

I tend to agree with almost point they brought up there.

In Ship the romance does tend to be more important than the characters. Man what I’ve seen done to Jack and Sam in ship can scare me at times. I tend to agree with the whole idea that like in Ship Slash tends to be a vehicle where writers seem to play out their obsessions with Daniel and Jack gets warped to fit what Daniel needs.

Though I agree a lot of fans disliked Pete because they were emotionally invested in S/J ship. I’m a non-shipper and I didn’t like Pete either. To me he came across as very disrespectful and pushy. I kept thinking ‘how he’s rolling right over what Sam wants NOW. How’s it going to be like when the pixy dust wears off and the honeymoon’s over’.

[JessM]

I saw that thread and completely agree. You do get a lot of shippers demanding a "resolution" for S/J, but like you say even a small mention of it, would completely overshadow the whole thing. You know the regulations are still there, let's not have Jack retiring or anything like that. I know nothing about USAF regs, but I think I read somewhere that even if Jack retired it wouldn't necessarily clear the way for any relationship between them to be ok.
(I might have got that wrong and I can't remember for the life of me where I saw that so don't quote me on it!)

Ugh, I hear there is even an online petition for a S/J "resolution." And as others here have said, I can't picture Jack retiring. He'd get too bored. He reminds me of a research advisor I had in grad school. The guy was in his seventies and even though some people privately said he should retire because he's getting too old to teach, there was never any sign he'd do it. He is quite an active person for his age and we all knew that if he retired, he'd be bored out of his mind. I can see Jack being the same way.

In any case the final ep/movies should be about the team, whoever that is exactly doing what they do best, and not wasting time on any ship.

Amen - it's all about the team! That's what made the show so great for me. Let's keep it that way for the finale/movies.

It seems unknown as to if RDA will be in the season finale. True he was in Vancouver doing that charity thing the week it was being filmed but if he is in it TPTB have done a good job of keeping it quiet

Anyway much as I'd like to see him, I agree if it means ship I'd rather not.
Then again I do honestly think they've moved away from it. JM did say there would be no ship in S10, although that was some time ago now, and I seem to remember him or someone else saying that S/J ship was over and done with. (again don't quote me on it just something I recall)

I don't think it will come up in The Shroud, it is about Daniel's storyline, but then again this is TPTB, all it takes is one line to ruin an episode
Like the whole "not exactly" line in S9, the furore that caused.

I agree, I really hope they've moved away from the ship and won't try it if he's in the finale. I think one of my worst nightmares would be to see them all standing looking at the gate, then Sam and Jack turn to each other and kiss, or walk away arm in arm... then Daniel and Vala do the same thing, leaving Mitchell and Teal'c looking at each other blankly.

It would ruin it for me if they tried it in The Shroud. Hopefully we'll be lucky there. Speaking of lines that ruin things that way, we also had the one in Citizen Joe, with Joe's "I won't say a word about your feelings for..." to Jack just before Sam walked in. I told my friends he could have meant anything but they insisted it was about Sam.

[JessM]

Just wait until you see what Daniel/Vala shippers will do to Daniel.

If you have any idea what they’ve done to Jack in some stories..... I’m SO sorry.

Just wait until you’re reading a story on a list and so far it’s clear of ship and then they drop it in the middle of a story. I’m still trying to claw my eyes out from a section in a story where Sam’s ogling a 4 year old Jack. YUCK!

Sorry a almost 40 year old Sam thinking about a 4 year old in those terms or hitting on Jack’s 17 year old clone not my cup of tea—BIG TIME. For me it boarders on disturbing and I wonder what the hell their Beta’s were thinking.


Crow runs screaming!

Oh my that is disturbing...

I know the feeling of thinking you're reading a gen fic and suddenly it turns out to be 'ship. I was reading one in a Daniel fic archive. It was supposed to be an episode tag for Morpheus, seemed gen for a while and then it magically transformed into Daniel/Vala near the end. Puke.

And then a friend asked me to read a fic of hers on fanfiction.net. She's a Daniel whumper. No clue in her summary as to any pairings in the story, so I figured it was gen. Hah - I get to the fifth sentence, and surprise!! Daniel and Vala are married, as are Sam and Jack! I needed some big-time brain bleach for that.

I mean if people want to write stories like that, it's fine with me. I just wish they'd make a note of the pairings or ship first so I won't be in for any potentially unpleasant surprises.

[nihela]

I don't know why you people bash writers so much ...

[Crow T. Robot]

I don't know why you people bash writers so much ...

I think there’s a huge difference between honest criticism and ‘bashing’.

There’s a place for WELL LABELED Ship and there’s a time and a place for an author NOT to even think of going there. And I think that was the point we were trying to make.

And it’s just MY opinion but a woman in her very late 30’s with a 17 year-old-jail-bait (Can be illegal) Jack and without a doubt a 4 year old (VERY illegal and very disturbing) Jack is NOT the time or place for an author to go play the ship card in a story for a cheap shot at more feedback.

Call me a prude.

The only way authors even get away with this stuff is because Sam’s a woman. Do you think IF the situation had been reversed an author would even think of writing a scene with Jack ogling a 4 year old Sam OR Jack hitting on a 17 year old Sam? No way.

[Dani347]

Just wait until you see what Daniel/Vala shippers will do to Daniel.

Which is why I cleverly stay away from D/V ship. And, so far, any writers have said upfront that's what the stories will be. But, I tend to do most of my reading from pre season 9 (mainly because after, there's way more likelihood of D/V ship stories)

Just wait until you’re reading a story on a list and so far it’s clear of ship and then they drop it in the middle of a story. I’m still trying to claw my eyes out from a section in a story where Sam’s ogling a 4 year old Jack. YUCK!

Sorry a almost 40 year old Sam thinking about a 4 year old in those terms or hitting on Jack’s 17 year old clone not my cup of tea—BIG TIME. For me it boarders on disturbing and I wonder what the hell their Beta’s were thinking.


Crow runs screaming!

Wha-huh-wha???? 4. 4. 4. Ogling. 4.4.4.4. Ogling 44444. *curls up in fetal position and starts chewing hair* Mommy, save me!!!!

I mean if people want to write stories like that, it's fine with me. I just wish they'd make a note of the pairings or ship first so I won't be in for any potentially unpleasant surprises.

Absolutely. People who like the pairings will hunt them out and enjoy, and people who don't won't have to read something they hate. But, I'm all for precise labeling of any fanfic. I don't read certain things and I want to know upfront if I should start a story or not.

[DeltaFlyer]

GRRRRR - I had to run over here for a rant, hope you don't mind guys.

Just ran away from yet ANOTHER 'must have S&J getting married and walking off hand in hand in to the sunset' posts on one of those 'What would you like to see before SG1 ends' 'Speculation on the DVD Movies' threads, I'm sure you know the ones

Why are they so obsessed with this almost imaginary, badly written S/J thing. BTW, can someone enlighten me, when were J & S supposed to have 'fallen in love'? because I must have blinked and missed it.

All I've ever seen re this supposed UST, is Sam gazing at Jack with the DEOD, causing some very ill-timed, awkward moments, and Jack looking very constipated in return. I mean, for cryin out loud! Jack's desperately worried over whether his best friend is dead or alive (Threads), and all Sammikins is interested in is getting the nerve up to profess her undying love !!!!

Why, why, why does resolution of something that, if it did 'almost' exist, has certainly fizzled out in S9 & S10, be viewed as vital for the movies.

Sorry, just had to let off a little steam. I feel a little calmer now

Delta

[nihela]

I think there’s a huge difference between honest criticism and ‘bashing’.

There’s a place for WELL LABELED Ship and there’s a time and a place for an author NOT to even think of going there. And I think that was the point we were trying to make.

And it’s just MY opinion but a woman in her very late 30’s with a 17 year-old-jail-bait (Can be illegal) Jack and without a doubt a 4 year old (VERY illegal and very disturbing) Jack is NOT the time or place for an author to go play the ship card in a story for a cheap shot at more feedback.

Call me a prude.

The only way authors even get away with this stuff is because Sam’s a woman. Do you think IF the situation had been reversed an author would even think of writing a scene with Jack ogling a 4 year old Sam OR Jack hitting on a 17 year old Sam? No way.

Actually I've read something like that Clone-Jack is dying and goes back in time to save Sam's mum. And there's ogling on both sides...