Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Killdeer]

To sort of get back on topic, does anyone know if Sam ever showed any interest in Jack before she saw her alternate self with him in Point of View (excluding The Broca Divide of course)? It just seems at times that Sam was pushed into it by seeing what was happening in other realities.

Good question - I can't really remember any time. Solitudes maybe, but that could have been read a lot of ways.

I don't think we really saw anything about Sam's feelings for Jack until Shades of Grey, if I'm remembering correctly. The two alternate realities let us know it was on the writers' minds, but I don't think we actually saw her feelings until then.

[Frostfox]

To sort of get back on topic, does anyone know if Sam ever showed any interest in Jack before she saw her alternate self with him in Point of View (excluding The Broca Divide of course)? It just seems at times that Sam was pushed into it by seeing what was happening in other realities.

Never noticed.

I did notice her selflessly pretending to be Sara O'Neill in the season one episode where they end up on the ice (episode name is failing me - Solitudes?).
Which I thought was so lovely, a fabulous example of a team episode, even though Sam and Teal'c are thousands of miles from Sam and Jack.

FF

[Killdeer]

Never noticed.

I did notice her selflessly pretending to be Sara O'Neill in the season one episode where they end up on the ice (episode name is failing me - Solitudes?).
Which I thought was so lovely, a fabulous example of a team episode, even though Sam and Teal'c are thousands of miles from Sam and Jack.

FF

Solitudes was a good team episode.

[Frostfox]

Solitudes was a good team episode.

There have been good team episodes through the whole 10 years. Some seasons better than others.
My main problem with all relationships between two specific characters on the show is that the writers seem incapable of writing a one to one relationship while keeping the team feeling together.
Which is why I'm no fan of any one to one relationships on the show.

Fandom and Fanfic is, of course, fair game, that's what fandom is so good at.
I'm no hypocrite, I love J/D in fanfic and the subtext RDA and MS were so happy to give us over the years. But on the show? Team is what thrills me most.

FF

[Madeleine]

Well, I guess I'm thinking of shows like Farscape. Peacekeeper Wars was canon in my mind - I guess I would never consider that it wasn't. And as far as the Trek movies, I've always considered them canon as well, especially the original Trek. I would consider it canon that Riker and Troi eventually get together, since they do get married in the last movie (although I haven't seen that one). Firefly is another one - Serenity is definitely canon as far as I'm concerned. *shrug*

On the other hand, there's shows like Highlander, for which I've seen all of the show, but none of the movies. So.....it can go either way I guess.

Farscape PkW got a TV airing and so was probably watched by a similar number to the series; and Trek's and Firefly's movies were theatrical and, arguably, were seen by more people than the TV shows. Continuum and AoT will be seen by a far smaller number of people than the original shows. They'll be more like spinoff novelisaitons in that they'll be considered canon by people who see it and like it, but most casual viewers won't even know what happenned.

[Frostfox]

Farscape PkW got a TV airing and so was probably watched by a similar number to the series; and Trek's and Firefly's movies were theatrical and, arguably, were seen by more people than the TV shows. Continuum and AoT will be seen by a far smaller number of people than the original shows. They'll be more like spinoff novelisaitons in that they'll be considered canon by people who see it and like it, but most casual viewers won't even know what happenned.

We forget that here, on the net and in places such as GW, we get a distorted view of Stargate and Stargate fandom.
I wonder if most SG1 viewers even know the films exist?

And different types of fans hang around together; GW has a high proportion of Jack and Sam (both separately and together) fans. Other boards and lists have a much, much smaller concentration of such fans. If you were only to go to a couple of threads in the Characters and Relationships folder on GW, you would have a very distorted view of SG1 fandom and viewer preferences. I'm sure the Stargate TPTB know much more exactly what sells their product, they will have done market research and the like.

FF

[jckfan55]

Never noticed.

I did notice her selflessly pretending to be Sara O'Neill in the season one episode where they end up on the ice (episode name is failing me - Solitudes?).
Which I thought was so lovely, a fabulous example of a team episode, even though Sam and Teal'c are thousands of miles from Sam and Jack.

FF

I totally agree that Solitudes was a *team* episodes and miles away from Sam and Jack. The glacier stuff was about the young captain trying to save her CO & team mate. I don't think there was any Sam/Jack vibe at all in S1.
Except for the fact that no one else would have know how to fix the DHD it could have been JAck and one of the guys bonding in a crisis. (and not shippy there either. Besides, I don't know that Teal'c could have passed himself off as Sara )

[Frostfox]

I totally agree that Solitudes was a *team* episodes and miles away from Sam and Jack. The glacier stuff was about the young captain trying to save her CO & team mate. I don't think there was any Sam/Jack vibe at all in S1.
Except for the fact that no one else would have know how to fix the DHD it could have been JAck and one of the guys bonding in a crisis. (and not shippy there either. Besides, I don't know that Teal'c could have passed himself off as Sara )

Which I why I think an implied relationship between Sam and Jack detracts from both the characters and the SG1 story.

The female lead on the show falling for the main man is so hackneyed, so cliché while the mentor/student relationship between a CO and his 2IC despite the 2IC's clearly being an attractive woman, was so unique and refreshing.

Going back and re-watching season one, knowing how they took that unique perspective and wasted it, is saddening and annoying. There are more interesting and intelligent stories to tell about these characters than the female lead mooning over the boss.

FF

[flynn1959]

Which I why I think an implied relationship between Sam and Jack detracts from both the characters and the SG1 story.

The female lead on the show falling for the main man is so hackneyed, so cliché while the mentor/student relationship between a CO and his 2IC despite the 2IC's clearly being an attractive woman, was so unique and refreshing.

Going back and re-watching season one, knowing how they took that unique perspective and wasted it, is saddening and annoying. There are more interesting and intelligent stories to tell about these characters than the female lead mooning over the boss.

FF

I have just started going through my dvd's, (crap on the tv over Christmas has driven me to it) I haven't watched season one in a long time and I have to agree with you. It was refreshing and unique, I had forgotten how much I liked Sam.

Such a waste.

[Frostfox]

I have just started going through my dvd's, (crap on the tv over Christmas has driven me to it) I haven't watched season one in a long time and I have to agree with you. It was refreshing and unique, I had forgotten how much I liked Sam.

Such a waste.

I adored Sam, and I still do.
I don't expect one TV character to be a paragon of virtue above and beyond all women, but it's nice when they buck the trend and be more than what dull boring TV executives think a woman can be. And Sam was that and they took it away from her and diminished her to a love interest for their main man. It was such a waste of Amanda's acting talents and Sam's potential.
Very sad.

FF

[flynn1959]

Having seen the great chemistry between Carter and Mitchell it just makes the supposed S/J ship seem even more unbelievable. Where C/M have a warmth and a friendship, J/S seem cold and distant with each other, as is right I suppose given that he is her superior officer.

[Frostfox]

Having seen the great chemistry between Carter and Mitchell it just makes the supposed S/J ship seem even more unbelievable. Where C/M have a warmth and a friendship, J/S seem cold and distant with each other, as is right I suppose given that he is her superior officer.

Chemistry is very much in the eye of the beholder. Like you, I didn't get any romantic sparkage between Sam and Jack. They (the writers, fellow fans) can tell me it's there until the cows come home, but if I don't see it, I don't see it.

You can't make all of your fanbase dance to the same tune, it's not worth trying to make them. Viewers are not sheep (nor are they lemmings), they will take from the show what they want and if that's not what you intended, then they have to live with it.

Rick is phenomenally charismatic. Amanda is a very likable actress. I can see good working relationship between their characters. When I see the four principals working in tandem, it's fabulous to behold. But romance? Er, no. Nor should there be.

FF

[jckfan55]

Rick is phenomenally charismatic. Amanda is a very likable actress. I can see good working relationship between their characters. When I see the four principals working in tandem, it's fabulous to behold. But romance? Er, no. Nor should there be.

FF

The thing for me was this bond that the four of them had. They had risked their lives together and learned to trust each other with their lives. That's special. There was no need to go down the road of "ship" among the principals. So cliche.
One of the things I liked about the show when I first started watching is that they *didn't* pair off Sam with one of the team. She was simply an equal.

I not only didn't like the *fact* of the writers going down the shippy road, I thought they handled it *poorly.* It seemed to diminish both Sam and Jack. I was so relieved after Divide and Conquer that they were going to "leave it in the room" and move on. Silly me.

[Frostfox]

The thing for me was this bond that the four of them had. They had risked their lives together and learned to trust each other with their lives. That's special. There was no need to go down the road of "ship" among the principals. So cliche.
One of the things I liked about the show when I first started watching is that they *didn't* pair off Sam with one of the team. She was simply an equal.

I not only didn't like the *fact* of the writers going down the shippy road, I thought they handled it *poorly.* It seemed to diminish both Sam and Jack. I was so relieved after Divide and Conquer that they were going to "leave it in the room" and move on. Silly me.

Again. Nail on head. In this particular case, introducing 'love' to the equation actually weakens the storylines.
For example, Solitudes, having Sam selflessly pretend to be Jack's ex-wife - not because she has inappropriate feelings for him; but because it's the right thing to do gives us a stronger, more meaningful story. Would it have made a stronger storyline if she did it because she wanted to cuddle up to someone she fancied? No, obviously not.

Love can be fabulous, but it can also be selfish and self-serving and distracting.

And, as you said, it can also be incredibly badly written, rife with cliché and distracting from the more important parts of the story.

I've said it before in this thread but to reiterate, RDA, a great, charismatic actor just didn't play into the romance stuff. They had experienced directors, good actors so why not?

I don't have the answer to that. I just know we saw him play romance with Jack's first wife, with the woman on the planet he got trapped with and with Kerry the CIA agent. And then we saw him play off Amanda (another top notch actor) and there was nothing, just sour looks (someone said he looked as though he was constipated!!! But I know what they meant).

Now those looks, I suppose, could have been meant to convey some secret, extra special love which is beyond the ken of mere mortals like you and I? But if that was the case, they missed the mark by a long way; there are whole swathes of SG1 fans who run the gamut between disinterest and disgust at the implied affair.

Perhaps if it had been better written and their leading man had not seemed so detached from the matter, it might have worked better?

FF

[Vaniel4evah!]

I've said it before in this thread but to reiterate, RDA, a great, charismatic actor just didn't play into the romance stuff. They had experienced directors, good actors so why not?

I don't have the answer to that. I just know we saw him play romance with Jack's first wife, with the woman on the planet he got trapped with and with Kerry the CIA agent. And then we saw him play off Amanda (another top notch actor) and there was nothing, just sour looks (someone said he looked as though he was constipated!!! But I know what they meant).

Now those looks, I suppose, could have been meant to convey some secret, extra special love which is beyond the ken of mere mortals like you and I? But if that was the case, they missed the mark by a long way; there are whole swathes of SG1 fans who run the gamut between disinterest and disgust at the implied affair.

Perhaps if it had been better written and their leading man had not seemed so detached from the matter, it might have worked better?

FF

I'm the one who said that Jack looked constipated, which is a lot of the reason I don't buy the grand romance. He seemed more embarrassed than anything when Sam showed up at his house when Kerry was over there and I still don't know why Kerry just bowed out gracefully.

There are so many reasons S/J is a bad idea and absolutely no good reasons for an S/J romance.