Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Cory Holmes]

If love IS in the stars for her, she should be with someone else.

*coughcough*McKay*coughcough*

[yasureubetcha]

*Cough*Thor*Cough*

It's part of the formula: if we have Sam and Jack in the same room (without explosives) we must have the requesite 'shippy moment. It bothers me that the friendship that was there from the beginning was so completely smothered by 'shippy allusions that the two of them can't even interact like normal human beings.

[Katerine]

New question: at what point did you become an anti-shipper?

I was thinking about this when going over my votes for episodes to vote out in the Best Episode Tournament, seasons 1-7, and I think I can pinpoint the exact moment when I became one.

It was called, "Evolution, Part 2."

Up until then, I think I was pretty apathetic about the whole ship thing. I couldn't see any chemistry, but if others wanted to see it, that was fine. There was a vague sense of dread in the sense that when the show, "ER," became all about ships, the quality of the show went rapidly downhill, but there weren't any specific feelings about the Jack/Sam ship. I certainly didn't hate it. Not like I do now.

Then "Evolution, Part 2" happened. A show that I haven't been voting off in the tournament yet because, after all, I did like the stormtroopers plotline and the Daniel scenes.

But this ep began with this awful, AWFUL scene, in which Sam laments the fact that Jack can't come with her to do whatever it was with the stormtroopers that she needed to do, and Jack also laments that he can't come with her, because he has to go rescue that pesky Daniel. Neither one of them show the slightest genuine concern that their best friend is being held hostage by a militia group. Never mind that if their positions were reversed, both Sam and Daniel would be clambering to rescue Jack.

The show spent seven years building up deep, loving friendships between Sam and Daniel, and between Jack and Daniel - and, in a single scene, threw it all out the window.

And then, to add insult to serious injury, Jack spends the rest of the episode bickering with an old teammate instead of focusing on rescuing his best friend. Or hurrying to get to him. Or even worrying about him. It was as if TPTB were afraid to show Jack actually caring about Daniel. At all. Because this would downplay the ship.

It got to the point where, at the end when Daniel says, "Jack, what are you DOING here?" this didn't come across as shock on Daniel's part. It came across as an actual justified question - what WAS Jack doing there? Since he obviously couldn't care less - after all, he'd MUCH rather be spending his time with Sam!

All for the sake of showcasing the ship. The show sacrificed one (or two, if you count the Sam/Daniel relationship) of the deepest, most complex, most interesting relationships in television, all for the sake of showcasing the Jack/Sam ship.

And that's why I hate it.

Incidentally, I found a fanfic out there that manages to be shippy without sacrificing the deep bonds between all four members of SG-1. "The Birthday Traditions" series by Kate McCaye on FFN. Granted, it's pure fluff, but at least it shows that it can be done. So why didn't TPTB do that?

(Quick disclaimer: I haven't yet seen S8. My perceptions may be a little out of date as a result.)

[Madeleine]

I'm not sure. I'd never have called myself an anti-shipper before s6, because I didn't come online till about 'Descent', and up until then I really hadn't noticed any ship. But once I realised that there was a whole ship debate going on pretty much continuously, it wasn't hard to decide whereabouts I stood.

I know for certain that the second half of s7 was what confirmed me as anti-ship. Grace was the nail in the coffin. The writers' idea of a shippy ep (they'd promised the shippers a shippy ep) was for Sam to go missing and Jack not to give two hoots. It was for Sam to imagine her subconscious telling her that Jack wasn't good enough for her (arrogance!), and then to imagine herself telling Jack that she'd drop everything for him. It destroyed the impression I'd always got of Carter as self-posessed, happy and fulfilled - an impression I'd really liked.

Before Grace I was anti-ship in principle, but I'd never really felt a particular *need* to be anti-ship because before Grace (apart from evolution II) I'd never noticed ship without it being pointed out to me. After Grace, Ship existed (even if it was S-->J rather than S/J) and it was ugly. After Grace I wasn't just anti- a hypothetical ship, I was anti- the codswallop that was the actual ship that the actual writers had actually written into the show.

[Cory Holmes]

Since I didn't get onto the Stargate bandwagon until just recently, I'd always thought that the show was a soap opera gone bad since my only access to information came from the fans and fanfiction.

It was the fanfiction that really turned me off of the Jack and Sam pairing, if only because there was so much of it that was dominating the webspace and so little that I could find of the other pairings. It felt like it was being crammed down my throat (sideways, no less). Then I saw all the little episode tags and missing scenes and such and naturally assumed that the whole show was about Jack and Sam and decided to stay away from it altogether.

But it was S7 and parts of S8 that just really nailed the coffin for me. I'd heard reports from the actors and producers and directors that those two would never hook up because of Air Force regulations and that Stargate had always tried hard to be a military-based show. Then S8 came by and more or less threw any and all of that credibility out the window as the writers gleefully allowed the regulations to be tossed out the window.

Even worse is the complete lack of romantic chemistry between the two actors. If they had even a shred of that, it wouldn't be nearly as bad or as forced as it turned out to be.

[Frostfox]

For me, I think it was when we met Jacob that I crystalised from ambivalence to dislike.

I should point out that until last year, I was nothing but a very, very casual viewer (and I stopped watching season six when I realised Daniel wasn't in it). I happened to catch The Changeling one Sunday afternoon on Ch 4 and thought, wow, what a grown up, conceptual episode (I was into DS9, so I thought episodes which broke the common mold, like Far Beyond the Stars, like The Changeling, to be a good barometer of a mature, confident show).
Because the boxed sets were so affordable, I started to buy them and watched the whole show again from season one onwards, paying attention this time, rather than being a casual fan.
I could see the show runners playing on the Sam/Jack relationship, right from the start but I ignored it as it wasn't of interest to me. I should note that I think to this day that Solitudes is a favourite of mine, where Jack, who's pretty much dead by that point, calls Sam 'Sara', I thought that was lovely, and Daniel working like a demon to find them.
When we met Jacob, and discovered the nature of the relationship between him and his daughter, I rapidly went from just not caring about and S/J to disliking the idea intently. He looked so like Jack! I found it downright creepy.
And I've been avoiding thinking about the Ship ever since - which is why I don't like episodes where it's rammed down our throats (YOU WILL SEE THE BIG PURPLE ELEPHANT ****E IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PLOT, YOU WILL, YOU WILL, YOU WILL!).
I don't think they write it very well, poor AT seems to get lumbered with all the doe eyes at her boss and RDA doesn't play into it. Besides, I suspect that the fans write far far better fanfic about J/S than the the show runners do.

Just my (oh so humble) opinion.

FF (hoping that Tucker Case comes in with a brilliant, reasoned, passioned response as to why she doesn't like the ship)

[Jace021903]

New question: at what point did you become an anti-shipper?

I have never been too much of a shipper for the show, but I never minded the little sparks between Jack and Sam in the early seasons.

However, the last half of season 7 starting with Evolution 2 put me off ship completely. After that just about every episode had a reference to it--often at the expense of another character's storyline. I'll spare you my rant about Heroes part 2.

The worst of it is that Sam came across as completely selfish. Everything else in her life took a back seat to her feelings which were more important than Daniel, Cassie, Janet, Pete--even more important than how Jack felt (he didn't want to talk about it.)

I was glad to see in the Inside Sci-Fi special that Amanda was talking about Carter going back to scientist-soldier mode, but then they played clips of her kissing up a storm while she is talking about concentrating on her professional life.

So, really I started to dislike the ship intensely when they changed Sam into a character that I didn't like very much.

Jace

[Dani347]

Then "Evolution, Part 2" happened. A show that I haven't been voting off in the tournament yet because, after all, I did like the stormtroopers plotline and the Daniel scenes.

But this ep began with this awful, AWFUL scene, in which Sam laments the fact that Jack can't come with her to do whatever it was with the stormtroopers that she needed to do, and Jack also laments that he can't come with her, because he has to go rescue that pesky Daniel. Neither one of them show the slightest genuine concern that their best friend is being held hostage by a militia group. Never mind that if their positions were reversed, both Sam and Daniel would be clambering to rescue Jack.

The show spent seven years building up deep, loving friendships between Sam and Daniel, and between Jack and Daniel - and, in a single scene, threw it all out the window.

And then, to add insult to serious injury, Jack spends the rest of the episode bickering with an old teammate instead of focusing on rescuing his best friend. Or hurrying to get to him. Or even worrying about him. It was as if TPTB were afraid to show Jack actually caring about Daniel. At all. Because this would downplay the ship.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I've never been a fan of the J/S ship, because I don't see any chemistry between Jack and Sam, but it didn't bother me enough to become anti. But, the relationship that has always been the one I watched the show for was the friendship of Jack and Daniel. And, some might disagree, but in my eyes, the more they tried to bring the ship to the forefront, the more they pushed the J/D friendship to some black hole. I had looked forward so much to Evolution 2 during the hiatus. Jack was going to come in with guns blazing and help rescue Daniel. More importantly, it was going to be there, full out, on screen (because, imo, it never gets tired, it's never enough, they've never done it too many times) that Jack and Daniel aren't just coworkers but true friends who love and care for each other. Skip to part two, and well, read quote above.

Also annoying is the end. There have been jokes of how Daniel, hobbling on a stick, wounded after being tortured, managed to get out of the gateroom so fast so that there could be a scene of Jack inviting Sam to lunch. Can't have that pesky archeologist in the way of twoo wuv.

That's when I started actively disliking the ship. I can give other reasons. It's turned Sam into a -well, there is no way to describe her on a PG forum. Take ship out, and Sam is much more tolerable and even likable to me. Bring on Stargate Barbie, who's ultimate goal is to get some loving from Sir, and I just want her off my tv.

[yasureubetcha]

The first time I even noticed anything 'shippy between them was the declaration in Divide and Conquer. However, I took the characters' word for it that none of it would "leave the room." So I watched in peace for a few seasons, confident that the issue was resolved. I also took the kiss in Window of Opportunity to mean that while Jack might snatch a kiss in a situation without consequences or obligations, any overt 'shippiness in the "real" world was about as likely as Jack actually deciding to work on his golf swing in the gate room. So I wasn't really anti- because until Season 7 came along, I really didn't see anything to be against. Then they started pouring it on, and it just made me cringe. And instead of one or two super-'shippy episodes that I could choose never to watch (or speak of ) again, it seemed to be a tear, an awkward scene, or a snippet of sappy music snuck into almost every episode, like Chinese water torture.

However, the last half of season 7 starting with Evolution 2 put me off ship completely. After that just about every episode had a reference to it--often at the expense of another character's storyline. I'll spare you my rant about Heroes part 2.

I found Heroes 2 disgusting as well. Janet's contribution to the show and her friendship with each of the characters was completely cheapened to a few generic statements designed not to reveal that it wasn't Jack for whom Sam was weeping. They tried to make it up at the end, of course, but even then couldn't resist that little scene between Sam and Jack. That episode is probably the one that I hated more than any other, because while Grace was pointless, at least it was supposed to be 'shippy, and not at any other character's expense.

[jckfan55]

The first time I even noticed anything 'shippy between them was the declaration in Divide and Conquer. However, I took the characters' word for it that none of it would "leave the room."

Oh what fools we were...

So I watched in peace for a few seasons, confident that the issue was resolved. I also took the kiss in Window of Opportunity to mean that while Jack might snatch a kiss in a situation without consequences or obligations, any overt 'shippiness in the "real" world was about as likely as Jack actually deciding to work on his golf swing in the gate room. So I wasn't really anti- because until Season 7 came along, I really didn't see anything to be against. Then they started pouring it on, and it just made me cringe. And instead of one or two super-'shippy episodes that I could choose never to watch (or speak of ) again, it seemed to be a tear, an awkward scene, or a snippet of sappy music snuck into almost every episode, like Chinese water torture.

I have very much the same feelings, but you've said it very well.

[Dani347]

By the time I saw D&C it was too late for me to believe that they would keep it in the room. I saw the show out of order. It was currently just about to end it's 6th season, when I started watching the Monday (well, at that time Monday-Friday) repeats which were just ending season 1. So, by the time the repeats got to that episode, I had already seen ship in all its horror.

And, Heroes was awful. Anytime a character that has been on the show for years leaves, the episode should be tribute to them. The whole episode. There shouldn't be any "Oh no! Jack's dead! Jack's dead! - Nope, fooled you!" And, it had a distinct feel of, "Fooled you, it's only Janet." We were supposed to feel for Sam losing her best friend, but I didn't get that from her at all. I got that she was relieved that Sir wasn't dead. And, Cassie's a "tough kid."

[jckfan55]

And, Heroes was awful. Anytime a character that has been on the show for years leaves, the episode should be tribute to them. The whole episode. There shouldn't be any "Oh no! Jack's dead! Jack's dead! - Nope, fooled you!" And, it had a distinct feel of, "Fooled you, it's only Janet." We were supposed to feel for Sam losing her best friend, but I didn't get that from her at all. I got that she was relieved that Sir wasn't dead. And, Cassie's a "tough kid."

I'd like to believe that the lines mourning Janet were stupidly cut b/c the episode ran over. I've heard sometimes good scenes get cut that way because they have to "move the story along" and have run out of time. But I don't think that was the case. Oh, and don't get me going about how Janet just disappeared with nary another reference, either!

[Easter Lily]

My problem with introducing ship into this show mainly has to do with the way it was set up. The premise of the show was about a group of people -- 4 individuals with different skills -- that go on these adventures together to explore other worlds. These people were a professional, tight-knit team and the strength of the show was in their dynamic as a team (Something I think Mr P said earlier)... I suppose then when the possibility of romance is suggested, it is a shock to the system. "I care for her more than I should". But why so? Why not Sam and Daniel? They have far more in common really. Nonetheless, it is never explained.

[MasterPower]

Alright! We've got a bunch of people that agree with me that Jack and Sam shouldn't be together. Props to the person who made this thread.

[Dani347]

I'd like to believe that the lines mourning Janet were stupidly cut b/c the episode ran over. I've heard sometimes good scenes get cut that way because they have to "move the story along" and have run out of time. But I don't think that was the case. Oh, and don't get me going about how Janet just disappeared with nary another reference, either!

I don't think that's the case either. But, even if it was, I think that would have been as bad. Take an episode like The Fifth Race for example. (First one that popped into my head) If that episode had run over, do you think Jack's introduction to Thor would have been cut? Of course not. Because that was a vital part of the episode. They might have cut the Teal'c and Sam trapped on the planet scenes. They might have cut Daniel snarking the scientists. Jack and Thor? I don't think so. With Heroes, references to Janet should have been considered essential. The whole coy someone is dead but we won't say who, but imply it's Jack was something that could and should have been cut. Well, it never should have been written in the first place.

And, the sad thing is, I don't think the whole episode was meant as a way to stick more ship in. I think they meant it as a lesson on how bad things happen and soldiers die and sometimes there isn't a sarchophogus to bring them back Now, it should have been a tribute to Janet, not a lesson in what goes on in real life (thanks, but I never thought Stargate was real, so I didn't need the lesson). But, that's a rant for another thread. But, I think that in the midst of what they wanted the episode for, they couldn't resist sticking ship in there. Because this was about Sam losing her best friend, and any story where Sam takes center stage needs to have some ties back to her and Jack.