Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[drewandian]

When? Where? When is it up?





Hrm...Having been through the waiting with other ships, I think this is infinitely more fun. What's more, with all the infighting I probably would have been turned off the fandom and not stayed with the forums. I dislike infighting.





Hi, Infinite! Thanks for your opinion, it's so nice to hear those kinds of perspectives. I don't have much to add to what SR already summed up beautifully.

People often take things how they want to see it. What's fun for me about Sparky is that there is so much to work with, whether it was purposeful or not. I enjoy finding all the moments that just signify the closeness of these two characters. I think part of it is writing (Carl Binder in TRW, for example, understood that John was the character most capable of reaching Elizabeth and the one most determined to try), part acting (most of how the scenes are played I attribute to the actors--how they stand, how they share a look, etc) and part production (editing, etc).

But Season 4 and 5--particularly Joe F's portrayal of John in the Elizabeth-heavy episodes--gave me a little cause to fall in love with the idea of something deeper than friendship potentially connecting them. I already liked them and saw the potential, and again, it's all perspective, but the reactions of John to Elizabeth's situation kind of caught me by surprise and left me a little breathless. I wasn't expecting the level of pathos I saw. Sparky before had been fun; Sparky after has been tinged with despair and a deeper appreciation of what exactly they meant to each other.

I have to go back through and watch all of S5--I haven't seen it yet, to compare McKeller, but my experience with purposeful ships is that unless the writers are solely focused on that ship as the core of the show, purposeful ships end up becoming a mess simply because when you're trying to force something, it feels just that--forced.

ITA! That's why, even though it was right there in front of me from the beginning, I couldn't ship Sheyla, even if I'd wanted to. I just felt like tptw were pretty much saying "here's the ship for SGA...you MUST accept it". And I'm sorry but I pretty much NEVER do what I'm told anymore, and was totally turned off of the idea of a ship there...

AND I remember what I was going to say before....Infinite, I am a tried and true die hard Sam/Jack shipper and got very frustrated by the flirting around with the idea of their ship (a ship my hubby sorta supports, because, well, it's scripted after all) and started watching SGA with the intent to just enjoy the show for what it was and to avoid all ships (even the forced, scripted ones) like the plague. And then I got broad sided by Sparky. IMO, I think it's just a matter of Joe and Torri having amazing on screen chemistry that just naturally translated to their characters. And I can't help but wonder if anyone really even realized it at first or if it was just one of those things that happened and they picked up on it later.....

[Eri13]

ITA! That's why, even though it was right there in front of me from the beginning, I couldn't ship Sheyla, even if I'd wanted to. I just felt like tptw were pretty much saying "here's the ship for SGA...you MUST accept it". And I'm sorry but I pretty much NEVER do what I'm told anymore, and was totally turned off of the idea of a ship there...

AND I remember what I was going to say before....Infinite, I am a tried and true die hard Sam/Jack shipper and got very frustrated by the flirting around with the idea of their ship (a ship my hubby sorta supports, because, well, it's scripted after all) and started watching SGA with the intent to just enjoy the show for what it was and to avoid all ships (even the forced, scripted ones) like the plague. And then I got broad sided by Sparky. IMO, I think it's just a matter of Joe and Torri having amazing on screen chemistry that just naturally translated to their characters. And I can't help but wonder if anyone really even realized it at first or if it was just one of those things that happened and they picked up on it later.....

For fun, when you have a free day, go to page one of this thread and you can read how it started here. A few people meandered around the idea with Rising, and the end scene in 38 Minutes smacked a few people upside the head.

But, and perhaps this was no surprise, it seems like the bulk of shippers really set sail after The Storm/The Eye. That was what caught me. Still remains my favorite Sparky to this day (cuz I'm a sucker for high drama).

Ah Martin Gero. We shall forever thank you, even if you would kick yourself for it.

[drewandian]

For fun, when you have a free day, go to page one of this forum and you can read how it started here. A few people meandered around the idea with Rising, and the end scene in 38 Minutes smacked a few people upside the head.

But, and perhaps this was no surprise, it seems like the bulk of shippers really set sail after The Storm/The Eye. That was what caught me. Still remains my favorite Sparky to this day (cuz I'm a sucker for high drama).

Ah Martin Gero. We shall forever thank you, even if you would kick yourself for it.

I did read the first few pages when I started lurking here....back when I was still in shipper denial. And it was 38 Minutes that did it for me...Elizabeth's reaction when John's heart finally started beating again and the way she sat down, so relieved - the look on her face - that was it...I was hooked (and pretty ticked off actually lol) and there was no turning back. And once you get that first "ah ha" moment, you can't help but notice it everywhere, no matter how subtle....

[Southern Red]

ITA! That's why, even though it was right there in front of me from the beginning, I couldn't ship Sheyla, even if I'd wanted to. I just felt like tptw were pretty much saying "here's the ship for SGA...you MUST accept it". And I'm sorry but I pretty much NEVER do what I'm told anymore, and was totally turned off of the idea of a ship there...

AND I remember what I was going to say before....Infinite, I am a tried and true die hard Sam/Jack shipper and got very frustrated by the flirting around with the idea of their ship (a ship my hubby sorta supports, because, well, it's scripted after all) and started watching SGA with the intent to just enjoy the show for what it was and to avoid all ships (even the forced, scripted ones) like the plague. And then I got broad sided by Sparky. IMO, I think it's just a matter of Joe and Torri having amazing on screen chemistry that just naturally translated to their characters. And I can't help but wonder if anyone really even realized it at first or if it was just one of those things that happened and they picked up on it later.....

A part of me wants to go with the picked up on it later idea. I think it may have first come to light at conventions. Torri even once mentioned "the group of girls who think Sheppard and Weir are having sex in closets" and thought it was cute. When asked at the beginning of S2, Joe denied there was any UST with Weir and stated emphatically that there was with Teyla because it was written. LOL But as the years went by, he started to hedge a bit and tease fans. Then the culmination to me was when he kissed Torri at ComicCon in response to a question about who Elizabeth would be shipped with in S3. And Paul Mc yelled out "now that's what I'm talking about". See it here. And look at JM's smiling face. The importance of that is it was not Joe as Joe kissing her. He did it in character. Because anything else would just be icky and here we don't mix up actors and their characters when shipping. *waves a stick*

I also had another thought on the editing idea. I recall that at the end of the Conversion commentary, Joe expresses a bit of surprise at how that last scene was edited. He started to say something about how he expected it to be left less or more ambiguous. I forget which. Will check after I dry my hair. And then Gero starts to talk over him and he never gets to finish his thought. All I will say about that is you will notice that Shep and Teyla never stick fight again on screen and from that point on their relationship IMHO seems to be a bit different. So that was an editing decision. There are probably others we don't know about. They film things a number of different ways and the editing process is really what makes the story come together. So if they didn't want the eyesex and the Sparky UST, they could have easily edited it out. Sometimes just cutting a second out of the middle of one of their long looks could have completely changed the mood. Those who do vids will agree.

[drewandian]

A part of me wants to go with the picked up on it later idea. I think it may have first come to light at conventions. Torri even once mentioned "the group of girls who think Sheppard and Weir are having sex in closets" and thought it was cute. When asked at the beginning of S2, Joe denied there was any UST with Weir and stated emphatically that there was with Teyla because it was written. LOL But as the years went by, he started to hedge a bit and tease fans. Then the culmination to me was when he kissed Torri at ComicCon in response to a question about who Elizabeth would be shipped with in S3. And Paul Mc yelled out "now that's what I'm talking about". See it here. And look at JM's smiling face. The importance of that is it was not Joe as Joe kissing her. He did it in character. Because anything else would just be icky and here we don't mix up actors and their characters when shipping. *waves a stick*

I also had another thought on the editing idea. I recall that at the end of the Conversion commentary, Joe expresses a bit of surprise at how that last scene was edited. He started to say something about how he expected it to be left less or more ambiguous. I forget which. Will check after I dry my hair. And then Gero starts to talk over him and he never gets to finish his thought. All I will say about that is you will notice that Shep and Teyla never stick fight again on screen and from that point on their relationship IMHO seems to be a bit different. So that was an editing decision. There are probably others we don't know about. They film things a number of different ways and the editing process is really what makes the story come together. So if they didn't want the eyesex and the Sparky UST, they could have easily edited it out. Sometimes just cutting a second out of the middle of one of their long looks could have completely changed the mood. Those who do vids will agree.

I tend to feel that way too...that it just sorta "happened" in S1 and once it was brought up by the fans at the conventions it became more intentional (although never overtly scripted, at least imo). And I've seen the vid more often than I'd like to admit and love the reactions from the panel. And yes, mixing up the characters and the actors is just icky (as some of the actors have very nice spouses and families and it'd just be WRONG!)

I don't do vids...don't have the first clue about them...but I agree that editing does make all the difference...for example, the whole tone of the last scene from The Seige Part 2 could have been completely changed if they'd gotten rid of the look they shared (the one from my sig....) So I think that, subconsciously, tbtw wanted Sparky too...although I'm sure they'd never admit it....

And I can't wait to see Conversion.....

[Eri13]

I tend to feel that way too...that it just sorta "happened" in S1 and once it was brought up by the fans at the conventions it became more intentional (although never overtly scripted, at least imo). And I've seen the vid more often than I'd like to admit and love the reactions from the panel. And yes, mixing up the characters and the actors is just icky (as some of the actors have very nice spouses and families and it'd just be WRONG!)

I don't do vids...don't have the first clue about them...but I agree that editing does make all the difference...for example, the whole tone of the last scene from The Seige Part 2 could have been completely changed if they'd gotten rid of the look they shared (the one from my sig....) So I think that, subconsciously, tbtw wanted Sparky too...although I'm sure they'd never admit it....

And I can't wait to see Conversion.....

I've done editing for discussion shows, but I have no idea how many cuts they film during dailys on a fiction/drama show. I'd love to see how it works. Maybe someday.

Sometimes showrunners/writers/editors/directors/actors are not on the same page. If my office is any indication, shooters and directors and producers do not talk as much as you'd think, though I think we all wish they did! A writer writes their script, but the actors, editors, etc, all contribute their interpretations. I don't think the writers sit in the editing suites as shows are put together, ensuring their initial vision is correct. Maybe showrunners with some eppies, but I can't say that I felt like Irresponsible had a lot of top-down overseeing in terms of the shooting and editing post-production process.

For some reason, I like to imagine a little editor hidden in the darkness of his AVID (or Final Cut Pro) editing suite, twiddling his fingers together as he finds the Sparkiest cut of a scene and inserts it with a 'mwahahahahaha' while another editor down the hall does the same thing with Sheyla or McShep in another episode.

[drewandian]

I've done editing for discussion shows, but I have no idea how many cuts they film during dailys on a fiction/drama show. I'd love to see how it works. Maybe someday.

Sometimes showrunners/writers/editors/directors/actors are not on the same page. If my office is any indication, shooters and directors and producers do not talk as much as you'd think, though I think we all wish they did! A writer writes their script, but the actors, editors, etc, all contribute their interpretations. I don't think the writers sit in the editing suites as shows are put together, ensuring their initial vision is correct. Maybe showrunners with some eppies, but I can't say that I felt like Irresponsible had a lot of top-down overseeing in terms of the shooting and editing post-production process.

For some reason, I like to imagine a little editor hidden in the darkness of his AVID (or Final Cut Pro) editing suite, twiddling his fingers together as he finds the Sparkiest cut of a scene and inserts it with a 'mwahahahahaha' while another editor down the hall does the same thing with Sheyla or McShep in another episode.

I like that too!

I'm totally clueless as to how any of it works...I get a huge kick out of watching the "Behind the Scenes" stuff, because I'm still very much like a little kid when it comes to the TV/Movie "magic" thing (you should have seen me when I was 'backstage' at the Magic Music Days parade at DisneyWorld with my high school marching band!)...

[Eri13]

I like that too!

I'm totally clueless as to how any of it works...I get a huge kick out of watching the "Behind the Scenes" stuff, because I'm still very much like a little kid when it comes to the TV/Movie "magic" thing (you should have seen me when I was 'backstage' at the Magic Music Days parade at DisneyWorld with my high school marching band!)...

Behind the scenes stuff is so much fun! The Lord of the Rings commentary on the Extended Editions is so fascinating--I love they give you the option of listening to the Lighting and Sound FX people!

You watch end credits roll for films and it seems amazing that that many people could work on a movie, but when you start to listen to that kind of stuff you realize how it really does.

Though I do have a funny story of a commercial Charles Barkley shot in our studio one time...

Spoiler:

We shoot all our own commercials at my network cuz we are poor. That typically means one shooter, one director, one producer, one writer, and one editor. Sometimes the writer, producer and editor are all one job.

But we would help other small production companies shoot commercials from time to time--and one time, Nike needed a 'sports studio' to shoot a commercial with Charles Barkley. Barkley was in it for about 5 seconds, the rest was an up-and-coming player dreaming of being like Barkley.

The other productions we'd helped with had a slightly bigger crew than ours typically does, but this time...YIKES. I was hired to do teleprompter for Mr. Barkley, and the day of the shoot, we arrived to find--no kidding--about 60 people in our tiny little studio. Not including our crew--Nike's creative agency hired out our entire studio crew to get that authentic 'studio shot' feel for the 5 seconds of this commercial that would show a studio. There were hair and make-up people (whut? Barkley has no hair!), crafts people (they built a sign to go over a sign in our studio that couldn't be seen). Agents, Nike reps, creative reps, Barkley reps, NBA reps...JEEZ.

So...we get ready to shoot this scene, and I'm not kidding, there are 3 directors on hand. And I mean, the cookie-cutter, stereotypical young artsy directors, with little goatees cut in Vs, all dressed in black turtlenecks and kitschy glasses yelling 'okay, what's your motivation here? What are you feeling?!!'

I'M SO NOT KIDDING.

All of us studio people were trying our best not to snort-laugh at all the hoopla for the five seconds of the commercial that all of this will entail, and dedicate myself to rolling Mr. Barkley's 3 lines of text (it actually required no prompter scrolling, to be honest, but I did what I could). My directions came from our stage manager. Now mind you're we're all in a studio that's probably 30 x 30-ish, but this is sorta how the dialogue went:

Head director: Are we ready?
Assistant director: Ready?
Their stage manager (standing next to the asst director and talking to our stage manager): Ready?
Our Stage Manager: Ready? *he punches his headset to talk to the control room*
Control Room: We are speeding.
Our Stage Manager: Speeding
Their Stage Manager: Speeding.
Their Assistant director: Speeding, we're good to go.
Their Head Director: Okay, Mr. Barkley, are we ready? Good? Action! *complete with little second stage manager with the clipboard signaling new scene*

It took them four hours to shoot the 5 seconds. Eight hours for the whole set up. They did about 15 takes. With 65 people standing around watching. And actually, some people from Nike corporate were on conference from Oregon listening to the shoot and making suggestions.

So, yeah, the cost of making a two-hour film? Doesn't surprise me, if that's what it take to shoot 5 seconds of a commercial that ran on limited release for a month.

[Southern Red]

I like that too!

I'm totally clueless as to how any of it works...I get a huge kick out of watching the "Behind the Scenes" stuff, because I'm still very much like a little kid when it comes to the TV/Movie "magic" thing (you should have seen me when I was 'backstage' at the Magic Music Days parade at DisneyWorld with my high school marching band!)...

When you get to Conversion be sure to listen to the commentary. It's a fun one. JF, DH and Gero.

Now I did my research and I won't spoil the last scene too much for Drew. But if you don't know how it ends, you can ignore this.

Spoiler:

During the last scene.
JF: You know what's kinda interesting about this particular shot is that I decided to give this very specific ambiguity about apologizing and...
DH: Sexual ambiguity? (WTF?)
JF: Unfortunately, we didn't use that take and it leaves the show with a very very different feeling.
DH: So you're saying blame the people upstairs.
MG: You know I did edit this show so...(laughter)
JF: Martin, Martin...wait...okay because she has a great look so we end...(I can't really understand him here)
MG: I of course didn't edit...
JF: But originally there was a look of like (lowers voice) "I'm sorry" "No, really"
MG: Judy did a great job on the show.
DH: Do the look for the kids at home
MG and DH encourage JF to do the look. All talk at once.
JF: (In a really low sincere voice) I'm sorry.
MG: Ah, I shoulda used that. I shoulda used that.
DH: You guys, now that's an alternate ending, a virtual alternate ending.
MG: Now I feel like a jerk.
JF: Damn that was good. Who was that actor?
MG: Judith Burke did a fantastic job editing this show. She is a fantastic editor.
MG says goodbye and they all joke around.

So we are left never knowing exactly what was different about the ending and wondering if it was less or more shippy. I'm going with more because this ending clearly showed her continuing discomfort and embarrassment.

[drewandian]

Eri, seems like it took longer to ask if everyone was ready than it did to actually tape it and be done! It is amazing how much goes into it...I mean, I've done the whole "on stage" acting thing (plays and musicals in high school) and I know it's totally different because it pretty much ends up a kind of "it is what it is" situation...but to have the opportunity for 'redos'....no wonder it can take forever and cost tons of money!

SR I plan to listen to all the commentaries...it's cool the things you learn about the eps that you never really notice the first time around...except, of course (imo anyway)

Spoiler:

the commentary for Sanctuary....sometimes I had NO idea what Rachel and Torri were talking about, but they sure were fun to listen to!

[Anuna]

When you get to Conversion be sure to listen to the commentary. It's a fun one. JF, DH and Gero.

Now I did my research and I won't spoil the last scene too much for Drew. But if you don't know how it ends, you can ignore this.

Spoiler:

During the last scene.
JF: You know what's kinda interesting about this particular shot is that I decided to give this very specific ambiguity about apologizing and...
DH: Sexual ambiguity? (WTF?)
JF: Unfortunately, we didn't use that take and it leaves the show with a very very different feeling.
DH: So you're saying blame the people upstairs.
MG: You know I did edit this show so...(laughter)
JF: Martin, Martin...wait...okay because she has a great look so we end...(I can't really understand him here)
MG: I of course didn't edit...
JF: But originally there was a look of like (lowers voice) "I'm sorry" "No, really"
MG: Judy did a great job on the show.
DH: Do the look for the kids at home
MG and DH encourage JF to do the look. All talk at once.
JF: (In a really low sincere voice) I'm sorry.
MG: Ah, I shoulda used that. I shoulda used that.
DH: You guys, now that's an alternate ending, a virtual alternate ending.
MG: Now I feel like a jerk.
JF: Damn that was good. Who was that actor?
MG: Judith Burke did a fantastic job editing this show. She is a fantastic editor.
MG says goodbye and they all joke around.

So we are left never knowing exactly what was different about the ending and wondering if it was less or more shippy. I'm going with more because this ending clearly showed her continuing discomfort and embarrassment.

*headdesks*

Fortunately they ended the ep the way they did, because if they used anything more shippy, they'd be waving a flag of "men sexually assault women because they have romantic feelings, aka they're turned on, and it's an act of primal nature and not aggression. Therefore sexual assault doesn't count as aggression".

Amd that's a very dangerous thing to promote in today's world. I heart JF to pieces, but he needs some education in social psychology. He's a good, but ultimately clueless about how these comments could be interpreted.

For umpteenth time - you. don't. promote. a. romantic. relationship. with. an. act. of. sexual. freaking. assault!

[Probie]

Hi!
We're not the only one to see the looks between John and Elizabeth. The guy from the bonus of season 1 (Pierre Bernard or something like this. He worked with O'Brien) asked to Torri if it will happen something between Elizabeth and John because he noticed the looks from John.
And if TPTB doesn't want us to believe that John and Elizabeth can be a possible ship, why at the end of each scene there are 10 seconds of intense looks between these two?
Even before to be a shipper, I noticed it and I thought if there would be a couple that would be them. But I hate "ship" people and it was the first ime for me with Elizabeth and John. It just seems natural between them.

Tonight: Vegas with mom. For the first time in this season, I can't wait to see an episode.lol

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Angsty Drama Wednesday!

Don't forget the Start Trek relaunch novels. They've basically picked up where the series/last TNG movie left off and gone way beyond -

Spoiler:

Picard & Crusher married & expecting a kid; Riker/Troi have a daughter; Sisko's back, Bajor has joined the Federation, Dax is the Captain of her own ship; Janeway's dead, the Borg are gone and Seven's lost the last of her inplants and is wearing normal clothes; and much more.

I'd like to see the SG PTBs make this sort of a serious effort with the tie in books - rescue Elizabeth, let some of the couples get together officially, find more ZPMs, etc. But the SG1/Atlantis books up til now have seemed afterthoughts.

The thing is, unlike Star Wars and Babylon 5, the Star Trek novels have never been considered canon by any of the producers/showrunners in that franchise, and as of the last we've heard from the Stargate PTB, the same is true of the Stargate novels.

When? Where? When is it up?

This year's Big Bang stories will go up sometime around November 12. Don't worry, I'll definitely be posting a link when the site goes live.

Now on to new business...

Welcome, Infinite-Possibilities!

but my experience with purposeful ships is that unless the writers are solely focused on that ship as the core of the show, purposeful ships end up becoming a mess simply because when you're trying to force something, it feels just that--forced.

That's pretty much the crux of the Sheppard/Weir vs. Sheppard/Teyla discussion for me. Infinite, much like you, I certainly did and still do see a triangle of sorts between these three characters (though I'd say it's been pretty obviously resolved with the choices that the producers/writers made in Seasons 4-5). Sheppard clearly seems to value his friendships with both women, and both Elizabeth and Teyla value their friendships with Sheppard.

But while we know that Sheppard/Teyla was deliberately written into the scripts, it's never felt, well, real, to me. I just never saw the same kind of on-screen chemistry between Joe and Rachel that I did between Joe and Torri; Joe and Rachel always seemed too stiff and forced with each other in the obviously "shippy" scenes throughout the series to believe that their characters were really attracted to each other. Joe and Torri, on the other hand, just seemed very natural and comfortable and it came through in scenes where Sheppard and Weir were a little flirty with each other, Sheppard sitting on Weir's desk, Weir teasing Sheppard, and even when they were arguing with each other! Some of it can be attributed to the script having moments that the actors could take advantage of, but it's up to the actors to actually play up those moments to get that shippy effect, and Joe and Torri did. And then, of course, the directors and editors kept those moments in. It all is rather curious, isn't it?

I was only a casual viewer of SG-1 and never expected to get pulled into Atlantis like I did. It was Sheppard/Weir that ultimately reeled me in, and I think that in large part, it was due to the fact that it wasn't so in-your-face, it was just a cute moment here, a quiet moment there, an angsty moment lurking around the corner, all scattered seemingly at random throughout the series, that felt far more realistic to me than the very in-your-face ships that the producers have tried to do in both SG-1 and Atlantis. So Sparky is where I'll stay.

[Probie]

Eri, seems like it took longer to ask if everyone was ready than it did to actually tape it and be done! It is amazing how much goes into it...I mean, I've done the whole "on stage" acting thing (plays and musicals in high school) and I know it's totally different because it pretty much ends up a kind of "it is what it is" situation...but to have the opportunity for 'redos'....no wonder it can take forever and cost tons of money!

SR I plan to listen to all the commentaries...it's cool the things you learn about the eps that you never really notice the first time around...except, of course (imo anyway)

Spoiler:

the commentary for Sanctuary....sometimes I had NO idea what Rachel and Torri were talking about, but they sure were fun to listen to!

I feel obligated to react.
WHY YOU WANT TO HURT ME?lol Your comment about the commentary for Sanctuary made me cry. Is anybody can tell me what's so good in this comment? The most important things....Or I will go in the house of someone in this thread. I can take a plane and be in the U.S. in one day.lol

[Anuna]

Welcome, Infinite-Possibilities!



That's pretty much the crux of the Sheppard/Weir vs. Sheppard/Teyla discussion for me. Infinite, much like you, I certainly did and still do see a triangle of sorts between these three characters (though I'd say it's been pretty obviously resolved with the choices that the producers/writers made in Seasons 4-5). Sheppard clearly seems to value his friendships with both women, and both Elizabeth and Teyla value their friendships with Sheppard.

But while we know that Sheppard/Teyla was deliberately written into the scripts, it's never felt, well, real, to me. I just never saw the same kind of on-screen chemistry between Joe and Rachel that I did between Joe and Torri; Joe and Rachel always seemed too stiff and forced with each other in the obviously "shippy" scenes throughout the series to believe that their characters were really attracted to each other. Joe and Torri, on the other hand, just seemed very natural and comfortable and it came through in scenes where Sheppard and Weir were a little flirty with each other, Sheppard sitting on Weir's desk, Weir teasing Sheppard, and even when they were arguing with each other! Some of it can be attributed to the script having moments that the actors could take advantage of, but it's up to the actors to actually play up those moments to get that shippy effect, and Joe and Torri did. And then, of course, the directors and editors kept those moments in. It all is rather curious, isn't it?

I was only a casual viewer of SG-1 and never expected to get pulled into Atlantis like I did. It was Sheppard/Weir that ultimately reeled me in, and I think that in large part, it was due to the fact that it wasn't so in-your-face, it was just a cute moment here, a quiet moment there, an angsty moment lurking around the corner, all scattered seemingly at random throughout the series, that felt far more realistic to me than the very in-your-face ships that the producers have tried to do in both SG-1 and Atlantis. So Sparky is where I'll stay.

Welcome Infinite - Possibilities!

This is really an inetersting discussion. I agree with you, SK - where John/Elizabeth seemed natural, John/Teyla seemed forced, because they were written to share the screen because they're both hot/pretty/awesome/enter the word of your choice. I too felt Teyla was kind of stiff and uncertain around him, especially in S1 when she still didn't get most of the funny pop culture references and they didn't really know each other, and that is the precise problem. We didn't get to know Teyla, or John (but getting to know Teyla who comes from an alien culture, while we understand John's cultural background, always struck me as very important). We didn't see them getting to know each other or why they supposedly liked each other. because they're pretty and Teyla looks hot in her exercise skirt? oh, please. Even cartoons for kids have more character development. If you want to convince me character x likes character y, you need to show me why. With John and Teyla I never saw "why". No, it's not obvious, as PTB seem to think. No, John saving Teyla's life doesn't really count as the act of undying love because she's his teammate and the team gets into number of dangerous situations and him, as a team leader, not saving her (or any other member of his team) would be VERY weird. I'm not sure I would like him as a character then. (Note that his actions in TRW are a bit different, because there is a definite personal moment in there, and his question to Woolsey in GitM - "What if one of them wants to stay" - only reinforces my impressions).

With John and Elizabeth I always had a feeling they were interested in what the other was thinking. They were a good match on intellectual, emotional and interpersonal level, and during S1 their relationship evolved from John's opposing to Elizabeth's decisions into one of deep respect and loyalty, becoming a friendship. I believe there were deeper feelings underneath, thanks to their unmatched on screen chemistry, because the long, intense looks between them, or flirting, or any kind of interaction never seemed forced. Sparky had me from the get go, and I wasn't looking for a couple to ship.

Whoever did editing on the show overall knew chemistry when he/she saw it.