General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Uber]

But even perception of interest is in the eye of the beholder. There were lots of moments/beats in Seasons 7 and 8 where Jack emoted regret regarding Pete or feelings for Sam where words were used where the tone of voice gave away the underlying emotions and some where words weren't needed. Take for example the Chimera elevator scene. When Jack realized why Sam was humming, he cringed. No words needed there.

She was freer to be more expressive because she wasn't the authority figure...he was. He had much more of a restraint on him as to what he could or could not say or do. He certainly wasn't free to broach topic with her. If anything was to change, she had to be the one to instigate the conversation.

As for Jack's look of surprise in Threads, I read that completely differently than you did. He wasn't surprised because he hadn't thought of it before, but rather surprised that Kerry figured it out because he had been so good at covering it up for so long but Kerry picked up on the vibes and was able to add two and two. That was my take on it.

[Dani347]

Well, I thought it being in the eye of the beholder was understood, but if not, I meant I never saw any indication from Jack. And, I think they could have done it if they chose. He wouldn't have to approach Sam, but why not have him respond verbally when someone suggested that he might have feelings? Why couldn't he give the "even if I did, I'm her commanding officer and it would be completely inappropriate for me to do anything?

[STARGATE7777]

Actually, Jack did say something to that effect. In the episode with AU Sam coming back to get help Kawalsky says to Jack that Sam and Jack looked pretty good together in his world. Jack replies that it's against regulations. Anyways, you can't just ignore what was said in D&C. You may not agree with how it was portrayed or that it came out of the blue but it was still Jack who said "I care about her more than I'm supposed to." The only explanation that would fit would be that he is supposed to see her only as his subordinate and as a friend but his feelings are deeper. It's not really fair to look at what Sam has done and said over the years and to disregard what Jack has said and done. Also, Jack is Jack. When has he ever been open about anything...his son's death, the loss of Daniel, the hard decisions that he has had to make. I know that some people don't see the chemistry between the two and that is fine. But I don't agree that it has been portrayed as one sided.

[Dani347]

Well, I did say since season 7 it's fallen all on Sam. It's like they figured that once they had Jack say something in D&C, that was enough and there was no reason to develop it, except to have other characters say it for him. And, I don't feel that there's only one explanation that could fit for D&C, but that's beside my point.

I also didn't see Jack as this closed off guy. I've seen him express emotions more than a few times.

[Melora]

And, I think they could have done it if they chose. He wouldn't have to approach Sam, but why not have him respond verbally when someone suggested that he might have feelings? Why couldn't he give the "even if I did, I'm her commanding officer and it would be completely inappropriate for me to do anything?"

Because by Season 7, RDA wanted the least amount of lines possible, perhaps? Also, from what I understand, RDA and AT would often choose not to say the shippy lines written for them, believing the longing looks and smiles made more of an impact. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did look out of place and forced. Add to this the often cryptic writing by TPTB and I can see why many anti-shippers and non-shippers see Jack as being indifferent to Sam (in Seasons 7 and 8). I agree that TPTB are not very good at writing the ship b/c they often walked a fine line trying to cater to different sectors of the fan base. It would have been much better if they had simply taken a stand one way or the other and written the characters and their feelings clearly, whether they kept Sam and Jack as just friends and colleagues or more.

About Jack’s indifference to Sam – Did any of the main characters have chemistry with Jack in Seasons 7 and 8? Jack was hardly ever there and when he was, he didn’t really connect to anyone hardly. The only real sparks (IMO) were when RDA was on screen with one of the guest stars (like Enrico Colantoni in Evolution or Dan Castellaneta in Citizen Joe). I can only recall a handful of scenes where Jack and one or more of the other main characters had any chemistry at all (Lost City perhaps).

Personally, I think a lot of this has to do with half-a**ed writing and a lot of it has to do with RDA’s boredom and indifference. It is painfully obvious that he didn’t want to be there half the time. He wanted to be with his daughter in LA and it came across loud and clear on the screen. I certainly don’t blame him and I appreciate that he did stick around b/c we still have Stargate b/c he did.

As Torri Higginson recently said in an interview, “I think everybody in a series has to work really hard not to get complacent. Everybody -- first and foremost the writers and the actors. If it's not on the page there's nothing the actors can do about it; if it is on the page and the actors are bored because it's Season Seven and it's been raining for seven years and they're bummed out and don't want to be here anymore -- all that stuff shows.”

And to turn Dani347's argument around – if Jack really was indifferent to Carter and really felt nothing for her, why didn’t he just tell Kerry she was way off the mark? If he felt nothing for Carter, wouldn’t he have just told Kerry that to avoid being dumped by the woman he was sleeping with? And yet, he said nothing. He didn’t contradict her or try to convince her that she was wrong. He let Kerry dump him and walk out the door, thus confirming her speculations were correct by omission.

Sorry for the rambling post. I don't post often, so when I do, I tend to be rather long-winded. I respect the point of view of anti-shippers and non-shippers b/c I can understand and agree with many of the points they make. And I really hope TPTB do not delve into any more ships on SG-1 or SGA. IMO, it is apparent they do not have the backbone to create relationships, stand by them, and see them through to the end with integrity.

Melora

[Shep'sSocks]

Essentially any relationship within the SGC is hamstrung by regulations so all we get is nods and winks and innuendo. Better had they not gone down that path in the first place.

[Shep'sSocks]

But even perception of interest is in the eye of the beholder. There were lots of moments/beats in Seasons 7 and 8 where Jack emoted regret regarding Pete or feelings for Sam where words were used where the tone of voice gave away the underlying emotions and some where words weren't needed. Take for example the Chimera elevator scene. When Jack realized why Sam was humming, he cringed. No words needed there.

And there was I thinking that he cringed because she was out of tune...

[Uber]

And there was I thinking that he cringed because she was out of tune...

If that were true, it was a fairly delayed reaction because the cringe came way after she stopped humming and not coincidentally right before he asked her what "his" name was.

[Easter Lily]

And to turn Dani347's argument around – if Jack really was indifferent to Carter and really felt nothing for her, why didn’t he just tell Kerry she was way off the mark? If he felt nothing for Carter, wouldn’t he have just told Kerry that to avoid being dumped by the woman he was sleeping with? And yet, he said nothing. He didn’t contradict her or try to convince her that she was wrong. He let Kerry dump him and walk out the door, thus confirming her speculations were correct by omission.

I'm sure that's what the writers would have wanted us to believe but I didn't buy it. Didn't you think it was pretty feeble though... I thought it was... and very rushed. The whole S/J thing has been rather (using your analogy) spineless... Really half-hearted especially when contrasted with how relaxed and happy he looked with Kerry. Call me a fool, but for a moment there, I thought he actually liked Kerry and how much he enjoyed her company. Compared to the sheepish, awkward looks that is S/J... this relationship actually looked quite genuine.

Hope to see more of you around Melora...

[Easter Lily]

Actually, Jack did say something to that effect. In the episode with AU Sam coming back to get help Kawalsky says to Jack that Sam and Jack looked pretty good together in his world. Jack replies that it's against regulations. Anyways, you can't just ignore what was said in D&C. You may not agree with how it was portrayed or that it came out of the blue but it was still Jack who said "I care about her more than I'm supposed to."

I could easily argue, I suppose, that that was just TPTB trying to convince us that there was something when well, there wasn't much substance to the relationship in the first place. The interaction, just wasn't there... even if in AU it exists. It's the one thing to say something exists but it's another thing to see the process in place... which in this case was IMO entirely lacking.

The only explanation that would fit would be that he is supposed to see her only as his subordinate and as a friend but his feelings are deeper. It's not really fair to look at what Sam has done and said over the years and to disregard what Jack has said and done. Also, Jack is Jack. When has he ever been open about anything...his son's death, the loss of Daniel, the hard decisions that he has had to make. I know that some people don't see the chemistry between the two and that is fine. But I don't agree that it has been portrayed as one sided.

Well, there's the rub isn't it... Here's a man who's not afraid to let people know what he thinks or how he feels but he cares for this woman apparently yet gives no indication that he's pining for her in anyway.

[Shep'sSocks]

Indeed, he appears remarkably indifferent to her.

[ShadowMaat]

The problem with ship on Stargate is that it isn't integrated into the plots, it becomes its OWN plot, and that tends to interfere with whatever is actually happening in an ep.

On most other shows, ship is there for flavor- it adds (or at least doesn't detract) from the storyline, but it doesn't steal the spotlight.

Stargate's PTB don't know how to write good ship. Even as its own separate plotline, it's badly written and awkward. The fact that they have no idea how to work it into the story of the moment only makes it that much clunkier and obnoxious. At least for me.

[SGLAB]

I'm sure that's what the writers would have wanted us to believe but I didn't buy it. Didn't you think it was pretty feeble though... I thought it was... and very rushed. The whole S/J thing has been rather (using your analogy) spineless... Really half-hearted especially when contrasted with how relaxed and happy he looked with Kerry. Call me a fool, but for a moment there, I thought he actually liked Kerry and how much he enjoyed her company. Compared to the sheepish, awkward looks that is S/J... this relationship actually looked quite genuine.

Hope to see more of you around Melora...

Like you EL, I was convinced he liked Kerry and for the little we saw I liked it. Contrast that with Sam and Pete and I was thinking what were tptb thinking? They did a horrible job with the character Pete which in turn made Sam look bad for being involved with him. They're just bound and determined to make Sam look bad in this whole ship thing if you ask me.

[Shep'sSocks]

Like you EL, I was convinced he liked Kerry and for the little we saw I liked it. Contrast that with Sam and Pete and I was thinking what were tptb thinking? They did a horrible job with the character Pete which in turn made Sam look bad for being involved with him. They're just bound and determined to make Sam look bad in this whole ship thing if you ask me.

I simply didn't like the actor overmuch. Perhaps they should look outside the DeLuise family for once.

[Dani347]

I liked Pete, but overall, I think it would have been better if he had never been created. I hate the idea of characters being created to push ship. Especially characters who are there to make us see how much Jack and Sam really love each other. It reminds me too much of the type of fanfic I hate, where it's supposed to be about one character, only that character is really playing second fiddle to a ship. They either are playing matchmaker, or you think one of the ship pair cares about them, only to find it's all a mistake and in the end they get together with their "one true love." It just aggravates me.