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    Originally posted by Dani347
    Maybe you're just better at being pragmatic than I am. But, if I were tptb, I would want to write something that I could fully explore. I don't even think I would spend too much time worrying what the shippers or anti shippers wanted. If I felt that Jack and Sam together was a good idea, I'd want to write them together. And, if I felt they had chemistry, I'd want to explore it between the two of them. So, all I can think is, this limbo, halfway thing was what they felt was satisfactory. Which doesn't make sense to me. Why would they want to write that? What fulfillment as writers did they get with something that they weren't going to let go anywhere?
    Again good points.

    I can be pragmatic because of the fact that ship would never be the focus of the show so I accept the fact that it will never continue as a front burner story and this is true of all characters and all ships. Unlike Farscape which started more as an ensemble show then focused primarily on John and Aeryn, SG-1 has pretty much continued as an ensemble show.

    So there might be an episode with Teal'c and Ishta and them dealing with their feelings for each other as a secondary story, but it will never become the Teal'c and Ishta Romance Hour anymore than it'd become the Jack and Sam Romance Hour.

    With RDA gone from the canvas, this actually opens the door to having Sam have an offscreen relationship with Jack because it now would not interfere with the team dynamic or show dynamic. However since RDA's gone from the canvas there's a Catch-22 in that a lot of it would have to be appreciated via second hand conversations and then also with Jack cameos.

    I don't know if you watched ER but I loved the chemistry between Doug and Carol...so I loved how she left the series with them ending up together. George did a special return to the show just for that one episode and that made me happy to know they ended up together after all was said and done. Maybe that's what will happen with Jack and Sam...who knows?

    ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

    Comment


      I did watch ER. It's interesting you bring up Doug and Carol. I was never a personal fan of the ship. Neither character was my favorite. But, it still felt right to me. I wouldn't want to say that everyone should feel that way, but for myself, I think no matter what my personal feeling was, from a writing standpoint, the ending for them was the only one that made sense.

      But, I also have to consider how much contention the J/S ship has had on my part. I don't think I would feel it was good, even with my own personal animosity towards it, but since I have that animosity, I can't really say for sure.
      I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

      Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

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      Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

      http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


      Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

      Comment


        Originally posted by Traveler Enroute1
        Wow, this has been a work out for my poor fron!

        I enjoyed this discourse and hope we can continue to enlighten one another on our opinions of ship. As I fall face down, can I pose a question to the few still standing which I will look at on the morrow?

        What about the ships in Battlestar Galactica and Farscape, all with lead characters? Why is the ship in Stargate SG1 so contentious?

        Just askin', just sayin', night all.
        My thinking is that if there's going to be romance in a show, it should be integrated into the storyline from the beginning. Not just an afterthought or a lure to bring in a bigger audience. I can't comment about Farscape having not seen past Season 2 *grumbles about Channel 9* but I do like the way, relationships are being developed on BSG. It is actually one of the reasons why I like BSG actually... the characters are multidimensional and they're capable of much good and much evil. Like Jonisa, I'm a huge fan of the Kara/Lee relationship because that dynamic exists on a number of different levels. They could easily have the brother-sister going, or the best friends scenario happening, or the fellow officers dynamic. When they are a team, they are formidable and I'm not surprised that Jamie and Katee are excited about the relationship. They look like they could actually even be lovers. But like Jonisa, I've decided that it doesn't matter to me in the long term if they don't go there in the end as long as the two remain interesting characters.

        My favourite scifi show for pairings is Firefly... What can I say, Joss Whedon is a genius when writing women and because he understands how women tick, he knows how to write romance without taking away from their dignity. He cares about his characters enough that romance is a consistent, integral part of the story. It's obvious to everyone that UST is there whether or not they like it or have shippy intentions.
        It is a cherished theory of mine that when female characters are well-written, romance just falls into place. It is an extension of who they are rather than an attachment. It makes sense and there's no need to justify it to the audience.

        The only Stargate writer that I feel comes close is Carl Binder. His writing of Weir has given me greater appreciation of the character. If there is anyone on Stargate who can maybe write ship, it would be Carl Binder. Maybe...
        sigpic
        "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

        Comment


          Originally posted by Easter Lily

          My favourite scifi show for pairings is Firefly... What can I say, Joss Whedon is a genius when writing women and because he understands how women tick, he knows how to write romance without taking away from their dignity. He cares about his characters enough that romance is a consistent, integral part of the story. It's obvious to everyone that UST is there whether or not they like it or have shippy intentions.
          Can I just say, ditto. I religiously watched BtVS and Angel back in the day, and the romance was part of the plot, instead of a distraction from it. It was never tacked on in an awkward manner, even when the focus of the episode was specifically on the romantic pairing. It still had meaning and moved the plot forward. There is several perfect examples of main characters hookin' up, and personally, I didn't think any of the them took away from the integrity of the series (even when I didn't personally care for the pairings they showed (i.e. Buffy/Spike)). I enthusiastically second the notion that Joss Whedon is one of the few Sci-fi writers that gets women and romance, and makes it look effortless.

          Unfortunately, I have barely a small fraction of that same faith in the Stargate writers. Their handling of Sam/Jack was chaotic, and it managed to make *everyone* angry at some point or another. I hope they learned from their mistakes, because romance can add an interesting angle to a storyline. It's not always a distraction. At least, not when it's handled properly.

          Originally posted by Easter Lily
          It is a cherished theory of mine that when female characters are well-written, romance just falls into place. It is an extension of who they are rather than an attachment. It makes sense and there's no need to justify it to the audience.

          The only Stargate writer that I feel comes close is Carl Binder. His writing of Weir has given me greater appreciation of the character. If there is anyone on Stargate who can maybe write ship, it would be Carl Binder. Maybe...
          As a hugh Weir fan, I just love the way he writes her. I look forward to more and more of his writings, because he's one of the few that knows what her character is *really* about.

          Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
          I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
          Spoiler:
          Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

          Comment


            Originally posted by chocdoc
            Her emotional life has not just been about men. It has been about Cassie--it has been about her friendship with Janet. And it has been about her uneasy relationship with her father that grew over time. All these relationships went very well over the years. As well, she had some emotional turmoil with Jolinar. The writers could have played this out better, but chose to stop this storyline--too bad, but it did give Sam another side of her emotional depth.

            So, it hasn't been all about men for Sam at all, in regard to her emotional side. She also suffered greatly (more so than anyone else in terms of expression) with the loss of Daniel, and then took care to convince him to come back in Fallen.

            The Grace espisode for me was not a problem. (note I'm not a Jack/Sam shipper). Sam was injured enough to be hallucinating for 4 days. She was also stranded in space, ALONE. the chances of being rescued by someone else was nil. She didn't know where the crew was. I don't know about you, but I can't imagine being in that situation. I would say you'd be very vulnerable, trying to think straight. The fact that she reflects on her lfe is not surprising at all in this context. I didn't read that oh, she had to have a man. She was thinking about taking a chance on loving somebody--I don't see anything wrong with that. Why can't Sam wonder about that? Alot of women and men who have not been in a relationship in a long time who aren't concussed think about this. It's not like they think they need it---maybe they start to think that they want it. I don't think this takes away from Sam's drive an determination in regard to work.

            Just my two cents.
            I take your point that Cassie and Frasier have contributed something to Sam's emotional life but in the scheme of things, they were the exceptions rather than the rule which is of course, bizarre when one thinks about how much time women generally spend with other women. I realise that Sam isn't representative of how most women live but maybe that's my biggest problem with the character. She is as Traveler pointed out, a rarity in sci-fi but IMO also a rarity in RL... but I suspect the writing is what's problematic here.

            I have no problems with people reflecting on life's issues or brooding over things... otherwise I wouldn't be watching BSG or Lost... Ordinarily, I love angst but my biggest problem with Grace is that it is entirely inconsistent with the Sam Carter that we had seen for 6 years. I realise that I'm in the minority where Sam is concerned but I just don't think there was anything previously that suggested to me that she was the kind of person who dwelt on things. In my brief experience of life, discontent comes from an accumulation of things over a period of time and not just a knock to the head. Again that could just be the writing. I just wasn't convinced by Grace... It felt forced on every level... There wasn't enough background leading up to it and it felt largely like dwaddling. This is where Stargate falls down for me... the humour is great, the male to male interactions are wonderful but when it comes to women and romance, I'm not as excited as I want to be.
            sigpic
            "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

            Comment


              Originally posted by Dani347
              And, last, the elusive chemistry. I saw chemistry between Crichton and Aeryn. I believed they were in love. Sam could shout it from a mountain top, and it wouldn't be believable to me. Jack could respond and I would still be cold. Each case is different. So many factors.
              Originally posted by Jonisa
              My problem with Sam/Jack is, especially in seasons 7 and 8, at times it felt like the entire show was on hold in order to put the requisite shippy moment in there and to focus on those two. It didn't flow IMO, it didn't fit in the overall story, and quite frankly it felt shoehorned in and quite often pulled me out of the episode altogether.
              Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
              Since chemistry is in the eye of the beholder, I won't argue that point. I saw it, you didn't...no biggie.
              You summed up my feelings on this, ÜberSG-1Fan. I just wanted to get some sense of what it is that so annoys fans when it comes to Sam and Jack ship. Apparently it boils down to just not getting it. Cool, not everyone sees everything the same way.

              I totally bought the chemistry and the ship between Sam and Jack. I felt the actors did a fine job even though the writers held the affection leash very close the paper, as it were. No question, the writers could have done better but hey, for me the ship was viable and pliable within the Team setting. To not deal with it in some way would diminish the series more than help it, as a previous poster (a non-shipper) said. It just takes the will; there's creativity aplenty in an award winning series that's lasted a decade, use it.

              Just sayin', I want what's best, now, for Sam Carter. Ship or ship out; just do something! Just my 2 coppers.

              (P.S. - Hi, whistler84, how's the syllabus going?)
              Last edited by Traveler Enroute1; 27 November 2005, 04:56 PM.
              MISSION: STARGATE REWATCH 2011-2012 ENGAGED DONE!
              sigpic
              Beware Helen Magnus - Doctor of A$$-Kicking



              Comment


                Originally posted by Easter Lily
                I take your point that Cassie and Frasier have contributed something to Sam's emotional life but in the scheme of things, they were the exceptions rather than the rule which is of course, bizarre when one thinks about how much time women generally spend with other women. I realise that Sam isn't representative of how most women live but maybe that's my biggest problem with the character. She is as Traveler pointed out, a rarity in sci-fi but IMO also a rarity in RL... but I suspect the writing is what's problematic here.

                I have no problems with people reflecting on life's issues or brooding over things... otherwise I wouldn't be watching BSG or Lost... Ordinarily, I love angst but my biggest problem with Grace is that it is entirely inconsistent with the Sam Carter that we had seen for 6 years. I realise that I'm in the minority where Sam is concerned but I just don't think there was anything previously that suggested to me that she was the kind of person who dwelt on things. In my brief experience of life, discontent comes from an accumulation of things over a period of time and not just a knock to the head. Again that could just be the writing. I just wasn't convinced by Grace... It felt forced on every level... There wasn't enough background leading up to it and it felt largely like dwaddling. This is where Stargate falls down for me... the humour is great, the male to male interactions are wonderful but when it comes to women and romance, I'm not as excited as I want to be.

                Well, I can't convince you about Grace, and I respect your opinion.

                I do think that the friendship between Janet and Sam was more than an exception though. I think this was very well done on the show -- just enough and with enough continuity that you could really feel their friendship. And the way it grew over time from season 1 was very believable. (I did hear that TR and AT told the writers/producers that they wanted Sam and Janet to be friends from the getgo.)

                And I think that the father/daughter relationship between Jacob and Sam was very well done, and again the development from season 2 was really good.

                See, in Grace, I could see a concussed Sam thinking Jacob would want her to fall in love with someone and be with someone to grow old with because he experienced at least the being in love part. I think alot of parents want that for their kids. I think Jacob completely respected Sam in her work and was proud of her, but I could see where Sam would think he would think something like this.

                Anyway, I do agree that they did not write Sam as well as they could in terms of romance. (I thought the Pete storyline was just way off all along--even the actor didn't work for me in relation to being Sam's boyfriend). I also cringed in what was it called, The Tenth Commandment, in knowing that Sam was even ever with Jonas. That didn't seem like her, even as early as season 1, but on the other hand, Sam definitely does not have a stellar romantic life!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Traveler Enroute1
                  You summed up my feelings on this, ÜberSG-1Fan. I just wanted to get some sense of what it is that so annoys fans when it comes to Sam and Jack ship. Apparently it boils down to just not getting it. Cool, not everyone sees everything the same way.

                  I totally bought the chemistry and the ship between Sam and Jack. I felt the actors did a fine job even though the writers held the affection leash very close the paper, as it were. No question, the writers could have done better but hey, for me the ship was viable and pliable within the Team setting. To not deal with it in some way would diminish the series more than help it, as a previous poster (a non-shipper) said. It just takes the will; there's creativity aplenty in an award winning series that's lasted a decade, use it.

                  Just sayin', I want what's best, now, for Sam Carter. Ship or ship out; just do something! Just my 2 coppers.

                  P.S. - Hi, whistler84, how's the syllabus going?)

                  Me too, Traveler Enroute1. I want what is best for Sam now, ship or no ship.

                  I never had a problem with the notion that Jack and Sam did have feelings for one another -- I saw it in the show and it never bothered me. But Jack isn't there and RDA is not coming back at least on a regular or really recurring basis, so there isn't much they can do. I won't think any less of Sam if she and Jack don't end up together. That can happen because of circumstances. I still think that what is most important to Sam is her work.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by chocdoc
                    Me too, Traveler Enroute1. I want what is best for Sam now, ship or no ship.

                    I never had a problem with the notion that Jack and Sam did have feelings for one another -- I saw it in the show and it never bothered me. But Jack isn't there and RDA is not coming back at least on a regular or really recurring basis, so there isn't much they can do. I won't think any less of Sam if she and Jack don't end up together. That can happen because of circumstances. I still think that what is most important to Sam is her work.
                    **chocdoc**

                    And wow, if Joss Whedon could do an ep for our Sam, I just might put my Firefly tapes on a pedestal. I loved Buffy although I don't own the series dvds yet. Buffy and Angel: a h*** of a ship, there, Whistler84.

                    Just sayin', too bad we don't have much cross pollenation between good scifi show writers and scifi shows.
                    MISSION: STARGATE REWATCH 2011-2012 ENGAGED DONE!
                    sigpic
                    Beware Helen Magnus - Doctor of A$$-Kicking



                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Easter Lily
                      I take your point that Cassie and Frasier have contributed something to Sam's emotional life but in the scheme of things, they were the exceptions rather than the rule which is of course, bizarre when one thinks about how much time women generally spend with other women. I realise that Sam isn't representative of how most women live but maybe that's my biggest problem with the character. She is as Traveler pointed out, a rarity in sci-fi but IMO also a rarity in RL... but I suspect the writing is what's problematic here.

                      I have no problems with people reflecting on life's issues or brooding over things... otherwise I wouldn't be watching BSG or Lost... Ordinarily, I love angst but my biggest problem with Grace is that it is entirely inconsistent with the Sam Carter that we had seen for 6 years. I realise that I'm in the minority where Sam is concerned but I just don't think there was anything previously that suggested to me that she was the kind of person who dwelt on things. In my brief experience of life, discontent comes from an accumulation of things over a period of time and not just a knock to the head. Again that could just be the writing. I just wasn't convinced by Grace... It felt forced on every level... There wasn't enough background leading up to it and it felt largely like dwaddling. This is where Stargate falls down for me... the humour is great, the male to male interactions are wonderful but when it comes to women and romance, I'm not as excited as I want to be.
                      To me, outside of the whole ship aspect, the essential problem with Grace is that Carter isn't interesting enough to hold an episode by herself. She's better when bouncing off other people. Expositioning to fantasy characters is just yawnable.

                      As to the discontent, both the fantasy Jack and fantasy Jacob characters essentially told her to get over herself and did she? No, because we were treated to the awful weepiness of Threads. It made her look like she had a crush on a teacher. Or, at least, had father issues.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Shep'sSocks
                        To me, outside of the whole ship aspect, the essential problem with Grace is that Carter isn't interesting enough to hold an episode by herself. She's better when bouncing off other people. Expositioning to fantasy characters is just yawnable.
                        Part of my problem is that I kept waiting for something more exciting to happen to Carter but it didn't come... The little girl... the invisible baddies... the fantasy characters should've, IMO been part of something larger but it wasn't. Instead it was some cliched, run of the mill concussion gone angsty...
                        Sometimes I wonder if they didn't set her up just a little too perfect that there's not much room for her to move after seven years.
                        sigpic
                        "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Easter Lily
                          Part of my problem is that I kept waiting for something more exciting to happen to Carter but it didn't come... The little girl... the invisible baddies... the fantasy characters should've, IMO been part of something larger but it wasn't. Instead it was some cliched, run of the mill concussion gone angsty...
                          Sometimes I wonder if they didn't set her up just a little too perfect that there's not much room for her to move after seven years.
                          I didn't ever think she was perfect, despite her being Little Miss Fixit, I've just never thought she was terribly interesting.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Shep'sSocks
                            To me, outside of the whole ship aspect, the essential problem with Grace is that Carter isn't interesting enough to hold an episode by herself. She's better when bouncing off other people. Expositioning to fantasy characters is just yawnable.

                            As to the discontent, both the fantasy Jack and fantasy Jacob characters essentially told her to get over herself and did she? No, because we were treated to the awful weepiness of Threads. It made her look like she had a crush on a teacher. Or, at least, had father issues.
                            Not for me. Carter is plenty interesting enough. Her storylines with Janet, cassie, Jacob, and Joilinar for starters were all interesting to me. Carter held a number by herself, IMO - at least as much as any other character! You obviously just don't like the character that much. I do, and she holds my interest more than the male leads. But yes, I also like the team interaction--I think every character was better with other team members to play off of.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Whistler84
                              Unfortunately, I have barely a small fraction of that same faith in the Stargate writers. Their handling of Sam/Jack was chaotic, and it managed to make *everyone* angry at some point or another. I hope they learned from their mistakes, because romance can add an interesting angle to a storyline. It's not always a distraction. At least, not when it's handled properly.
                              yes, 'romance'. what shippers mainly got for 8 seasons was ust and angst.

                              for me, the ultimate ship ending was 'lost city'. with sam questioning hers and jack's feelings in grace, i felt that 'lost city' was the culmination of it. she wasn't sure she was in love with jack in 'grace'? well, i felt she figured it out (she was) by 'lost city'. so the angst/ust through out season 8 shouldn't have happened. sam should have dumped pete right after 'lost city' and then (like in threads) built up the courage to talk to jack. again. so, she talks, they agree to whatever, and then it's calm and smooth (non angst) sailing. without the sam/jack/pete triangle that ran through seasons 7/8... i finally reached my threshold in season 8 (because it never should have happened).



                              sally
                              sally

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                                Interesting that all those storylines happened early in the series. But, I think the later episodes, it isn't that they're Sam episodes. It's just they don't write good episodes for Sam. IMO, of course. And, the sad thing is, they used to. Singularity, very good episode. Secrets may not have been a Sam episode exactly, but she carried about half the storyline, and it was a very good one. The Devil You Know, also good. But, after awhile, they had to insert ship into everything, or had Sam playing second fiddle to a guest star. Avenger 2.0. was really more about Felger. Freaking Felger!

                                And, I agree, Grace just never seemed to go anywhere. The whole build up seemed to be to play into ship. And, since ship has no interest for me (does screeching hair pulling count as interest?) the episode seemed boring. Plus, brooding where nothing happens is dull. I also agree that I never found Sam perfect, and I find it funny to think that she had to be shown to be not perfect. And, funny that the solution that the writers seemed to have for her supposed perfection was ship.
                                I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                                Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                                Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                                Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                                http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                                Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

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