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    I takes what I can gets.

    I'd love RDA to return fulltime...but that ain't going to happen.

    I'd love to have lots and lots of shippy moments with RDA cameos next season...probably also will not happen.

    But bits of convo between the team talking about Jack or subtle implications PLUS a few cameos? That'd be fine.

    Heck, for all I know, they'll have a JAG kind of ending...not as primary to the series finale as theirs was...but SOMETHING.

    I would just hate after all this build up that they drop it altogether.

    Kind of like in Heroes. The commentary discussed how they wanted to kill Janet off because loved ones die unexpectedly in wars and they wanted to show the emotional toll and consequences. As much as I hated losing Janet, that episode was so well done I considered it one of the greats of the series.

    That is until Season 8 reared its head and the name Janet Frasier was never uttered.

    So Heroes has dropped in my estimation because until EDM, the name Frasier hadn't been used since Heroes. In order to truly show the emotional toll of such a deep loss, there has to be long term implications. And like ship, I'm not talking about it being up front and center all the time...but a mention every now and then would have been perfectly appropriate...especially when they got that new doctor in Lockdown. And in fact a mention here and there was necessary to show that the loss was felt for longer than the 42 minute episode where she died. Without that, then Heroes loses some of its significance in that regard.

    So back to ship...I'm hoping at least for some sort of continuity and they just give a nod to the story now and then. Otherwise, as a shipper I'll see all the episodes they focused on ship with a much dimmer light because it would be all kinds of build up leading to what?

    ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

    Comment


      Originally posted by Easter Lily
      Is that really a darkside though? She's as far as I know a high achiever... and good on her! She's never really had to prove herself to anyone except for that brief banter with Jack and Kawalsky. Everyone had the highest regard for her even her father with whom she had other personal issues with. For me a person with a darkside is more an individual who constantly grapples with huge moral dilemmas and could easily be the bad guy except for some spark of humanity... anti-heroes... Sam, on the other hand, is really a very decent person who is very self-sufficient or at least portrayed to be self-sufficient. Even in Unnatural Selection... to have to lie to Fifth and then abandon him was heartbreaking for her.


      I beg to differ. If someone has insecurities they would emerge sooner rather than later. It may take a while but not seven years. Not especially someone living such an intense existence and under so much scrutiny. I admit that Sam Carter isn't a great favourite of mine but Grace wasn't even about a moral dilemma... From where I was sitting, it was just about Sam, with a concussion suddenly thinking that she needed a man. There was never any suggestion before that she was in dire need of male company or she would have any difficulty finding any if she was interested. Now, she's all alone in a ship, having hit her head dreaming of what could have been. I don't buy it.

      Then, of course, the pendulum swings to the other extreme... she becomes technobabble Sam... I know us girls have our mood swings but this is nonsensical. A competent female who is obviously able to multitask has no emotional life portrayed unless it has to do with men... That, is boring...

      Her emotional life has not just been about men. It has been about Cassie--it has been about her friendship with Janet. And it has been about her uneasy relationship with her father that grew over time. All these relationships went very well over the years. As well, she had some emotional turmoil with Jolinar. The writers could have played this out better, but chose to stop this storyline--too bad, but it did give Sam another side of her emotional depth.

      So, it hasn't been all about men for Sam at all, in regard to her emotional side. She also suffered greatly (more so than anyone else in terms of expression) with the loss of Daniel, and then took care to convince him to come back in Fallen.

      The Grace espisode for me was not a problem. (note I'm not a Jack/Sam shipper). Sam was injured enough to be hallucinating for 4 days. She was also stranded in space, ALONE. the chances of being rescued by someone else was nil. She didn't know where the crew was. I don't know about you, but I can't imagine being in that situation. I would say you'd be very vulnerable, trying to think straight. The fact that she reflects on her lfe is not surprising at all in this context. I didn't read that oh, she had to have a man. She was thinking about taking a chance on loving somebody--I don't see anything wrong with that. Why can't Sam wonder about that? Alot of women and men who have not been in a relationship in a long time who aren't concussed think about this. It's not like they think they need it---maybe they start to think that they want it. I don't think this takes away from Sam's drive an determination in regard to work.

      Just my two cents.

      Comment


        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
        I takes what I can gets.

        I'd love RDA to return fulltime...but that ain't going to happen.

        I'd love to have lots and lots of shippy moments with RDA cameos next season...probably also will not happen.

        But bits of convo between the team talking about Jack or subtle implications PLUS a few cameos? That'd be fine.

        Heck, for all I know, they'll have a JAG kind of ending...not as primary to the series finale as theirs was...but SOMETHING.

        I would just hate after all this build up that they drop it altogether.

        Kind of like in Heroes. The commentary discussed how they wanted to kill Janet off because loved ones die unexpectedly in wars and they wanted to show the emotional toll and consequences. As much as I hated losing Janet, that episode was so well done I considered it one of the greats of the series.

        That is until Season 8 reared its head and the name Janet Frasier was never uttered.

        So Heroes has dropped in my estimation because until EDM, the name Frasier hadn't been used since Heroes. In order to truly show the emotional toll of such a deep loss, there has to be long term implications. And like ship, I'm not talking about it being up front and center all the time...but a mention every now and then would have been perfectly appropriate...especially when they got that new doctor in Lockdown. And in fact a mention here and there was necessary to show that the loss was felt for longer than the 42 minute episode where she died. Without that, then Heroes loses some of its significance in that regard.

        So back to ship...I'm hoping at least for some sort of continuity and they just give a nod to the story now and then. Otherwise, as a shipper I'll see all the episodes they focused on ship with a much dimmer light because it would be all kinds of build up leading to what?

        the bad news is, the writers do drop the storylines. They don't follow through on much at all. And your example of Janet is a good one. Not ONE mention of her since Heroes. Unbelievable. And she was an integral character. And who knows if Jacob will be mentioned again.

        The writers don't seem to want to deal with the ship at all. They do not seem interested in it at all. It's old news. They have new characters to play with, new stories to tell.

        Maybe you'll get some resolution at the very end of the series, I don't know.

        If the series had finished up at the end of season 7 or 8, it might have been there, but now SG-1 is becoming a very different show.

        I do think they could add a line in or two, but they just don't seem to want to do this.

        Comment


          Yeah. you have to be pragmatic, take what you can get. Because as soon as they actively started writing ship, the best you could get was settling. They weren't going to let anything happen while either of them were on the show. Sam under Jack's command? Wasn't going to happen. And, while they were on the show, Sam was always going to be under Jack's command. So, why start something where the best you can get is, "I'll take what I can get"? What were tptb thinking? Maybe they didn't expect people would want more or less. Maybe they thought that what they gave was satisfying enough.


          Again, I don't see Sam as always right. But, I could have found a lot to do with her being dutiful. I personally think Sam has a follower mentality. Which isn't a put down. (I have one, and wouldn't put myself down in a public forum) She's great at following orders, obeying others. An admirable skill. Then, circumstances put her in charge. Why not explore how someone who excelled so much in one role had to adjust to another one? Drama! Or, would showing Sam not immediately being comfortable in charge have seemed sexist? It wouldn't to me, super feminist that I am. Instead, we get Zero Hour, where they hinted at it, and then had her, Daniel, and Teal'c disappear from the episode, so we only saw Jack adjusting to a role he really wasn't prepared for. And, then, hardly any of Sam leading after that. Sam wasn't this boring always right person without the ship, but if she was, there were so many avenues that could have been taken to remedy that without ship. But, what I see, more often than not, is the question, the remedy to all of it in so many minds is nothing but ship. Not everyone, but a lot of people appear to see just that.
          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

          Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

          Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


          Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

          Comment


            Originally posted by dipsofjazz
            Sally, I would love for there to be lots of ship, but I have come to the conclusion that these writers cannot write ship, and are far too afraid of writing any sort of ship that we'd like. This is why I would be happy to just know, in canon, that Sam and Jack are together. My imagination will fill in the rest, as I doubt we'll ever get anything on the show to satisfy us.(It would also cause far too much unrest in the general fandom to have lots of ship).
            you know what i want, dips? i want the first half of chimera with sam and pete for sam and jack. i want the romance. the writers didn't hold back in what they showed for that relay. i want the same thing. i want to *see* them in a relay.



            sally
            sally

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            Comment


              Originally posted by majorsal
              you know what i want, dips? i want the first half of chimera with sam and pete for sam and jack. i want the romance. the writers didn't hold back in what they showed for that relay. i want the same thing. i want to *see* them in a relay.



              sally
              Hell yes! I'm with you there, but you know that we're just not going to get that, don't you? TPTB can write ship for every character in the show, including AU, alternate timelines, viruses, etc but we'll never, ever get Sam and Jack together! We can get Teal'c trying to live on his own outside the SGC, but, of course, he gets the 'dame' (even though he has a 'woman' already): we see Daniel in various episodes getting...um...the 'dame', Jack even gets some action, but of course, it's not with Sam. The show is full of ship, but never the ship that many people would like to see. Now we have the potential of Daniel/Vala ship. It must be Sam/Jack that they hate writing for.
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              Comment


                Originally posted by Easter Lily
                Is that really a darkside though? She's as far as I know a high achiever... and good on her! She's never really had to prove herself to anyone except for that brief banter with Jack and Kawalsky. Everyone had the highest regard for her even her father with whom she had other personal issues with. For me a person with a darkside is more an individual who constantly grapples with huge moral dilemmas and could easily be the bad guy except for some spark of humanity... anti-heroes... Sam, on the other hand, is really a very decent person who is very self-sufficient or at least portrayed to be self-sufficient. Even in Unnatural Selection... to have to lie to Fifth and then abandon him was heartbreaking for her.


                I beg to differ. If someone has insecurities they would emerge sooner rather than later. It may take a while but not seven years. Not especially someone living such an intense existence and under so much scrutiny. I admit that Sam Carter isn't a great favourite of mine but Grace wasn't even about a moral dilemma... From where I was sitting, it was just about Sam, with a concussion suddenly thinking that she needed a man. There was never any suggestion before that she was in dire need of male company or she would have any difficulty finding any if she was interested. Now, she's all alone in a ship, having hit her head dreaming of what could have been. I don't buy it.

                Then, of course, the pendulum swings to the other extreme... she becomes technobabble Sam... I know us girls have our mood swings but this is nonsensical. A competent female who is obviously able to multitask has no emotional life portrayed unless it has to do with men... That, is boring...
                There's no limit to when a person's deeper/darker side can emerge, is there? As you say and I agree, Sam's a high achiever and self-sufficient; she prioritizes duty first, mundane things to the back burner, dealt with eventually. And we are talking about how the character was written; my assertion is that its normal to have issues undercover but Sam was never written as fully as her character would suggest with, as you say, all that happened to her.

                For that matter, we could presume she DID deal with those darker moments since we don't see her going berserker or in meltdown. (My definition of darkside includes darkness as in depression, bouts of insecurity as well as agressive impulses.) How do we know she wasn't a rebel or goth-girl in high school? We can presume she only had to be the best all the way through the Academy, smooth sailing, because look at her now. Naah. I don't buy that.

                As for Grace, well, I saw Sam
                Spoiler:
                dealing with a disabled ship, seeing the people closest to her come to her to aid and support her; Teal'c warns her not to fall asleep. Daniel urges her to consider the strange girl as other than she appears. Her father appears when she's even deeper in the concussion where more than her survival instincts are: her feelings and concerns. THEN Jack.
                . I really don't see that having a man was what Grace was all about; I'll concede that
                Spoiler:
                after the kiss it would SEEM so!
                . I didn't see Sam in a moral dilemma in Grace, either.

                Just sayin', I have always liked Sam Carter. In scifi she's a rarity: brains, courage and minimal t&a requirements. I like to think of her as the potential women have when gender obstacles are removed but hey, that's my thing. If the ship had been allowed to cycle to some kind of conclusion we wouldn't be having this conversation! Ship is good (when resolved!)
                Last edited by Traveler Enroute1; 26 November 2005, 08:45 PM.
                MISSION: STARGATE REWATCH 2011-2012 ENGAGED DONE!
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                Beware Helen Magnus - Doctor of A$$-Kicking



                Comment


                  If they had to do ship, the best thing would have been if Sam was not part of SG1, but a recurring character on another team. Wait! Wait! Put that hose down!! If she had been a recurring character all along, people would be used to it, and wouldn't think that it was a slight. Sure, they could have upgraded Janet to a main character, but I don't think anyone felt that there was something overtly wrong with her not being one. Or, not too many people. Same way with Siler, or any other frequent but not main character. You don't miss what you never have. So, she's a recurring character (because the show was always going to focus on SG1) on another team. She's still a soldier and a scientist. We still see a lot of that, just not every episode. But, there are no restrictions to them being together. Sam's not under Jack's direct command. They can show all the shippy scenes to their hearts content (while making me invest in a extra large vomit buckets). And, even with Jack becoming the head of the SGC, well, since Sam would have been only recurring, it wouldn't have been as jarring if she had retired for whatever reason, and she still could have been called in to do some voluntary work when they needed her expertise.

                  I just don't see how anyone could really be happy from the way it started. Because I really doubt shippers are going to get the shippy scenes with RDA gone, and they were never going to get them (except in AU's) with him there, because Sam was a part of the team. And, of course, there are the non shippers who are also frustrated.
                  I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                  Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                  Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                  Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                  http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                  Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                  Comment


                    Wow, this has been a work out for my poor fron!

                    I enjoyed this discourse and hope we can continue to enlighten one another on our opinions of ship. As I fall face down, can I pose a question to the few still standing which I will look at on the morrow?

                    What about the ships in Battlestar Galactica and Farscape, all with lead characters? Why is the ship in Stargate SG1 so contentious?

                    Just askin', just sayin', night all.
                    MISSION: STARGATE REWATCH 2011-2012 ENGAGED DONE!
                    sigpic
                    Beware Helen Magnus - Doctor of A$$-Kicking



                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Dani347
                      <big honkin' snip of good stuff>

                      I just don't see how anyone could really be happy from the way it started. Because I really doubt shippers are going to get the shippy scenes with RDA gone, and they were never going to get them (except in AU's) with him there, because Sam was a part of the team. And, of course, there are the non shippers who are also frustrated.
                      I think you just hit the nail on the head! Nobody's going to be happy with anything they do now. I really don't think we're going to see RDA back, so that cuts out a lot of what I, personally, would like to see. With Jack being head of Home Security, (not that this has been mentioned in the show) I think that gets rid of the regs, as he's no longer in her direct chain of command. TPTB knew that RDA was leaving and all it would have taken is something....anything at the end of S8 for shippers to be happier than they are now. TPTB seem to think that Moebius was all the shippers needed, but it shows how stupid they are. This was an alternate timeline, and was not OUR Sam and Jack together. I don't think TPTB understand what the problem with the shippers is.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Dani347
                        I just don't see how anyone could really be happy from the way it started. Because I really doubt shippers are going to get the shippy scenes with RDA gone, and they were never going to get them (except in AU's) with him there, because Sam was a part of the team. And, of course, there are the non shippers who are also frustrated.
                        This is exactly how I see things. The fact that Sam/Jack existed in the first place likely upset anti-shippers and the on-again-off-again style of the ship and the feel that it was never going to progress likely upset non-shippers and shippers. And now Jack's gone and it's damn hard to write a ship when one half of the couple isn't even around. End result? I don't think anyone - shipper or not - is honestly happy with how TPTB have handled the ship.

                        And now there's the mess of what to do now. How do you deal with a story line that isn't working well? Dump all the work done over these seasons and move on like some fans want, or try and get some sort of resolution like other fans want? Personally, I like tying up loose ends in the shows I watch, so I'm leaning toward the latter. Sadly, I just don't think TPTB would handle even that well, so maybe it's better that they avoid the whole thing. Damn shame too - I honestly want to expect more from TPTB in this area rather than just assuming we're going to get half-assed ship.


                        I'm really hoping we don't get a repeat of this mess on Atlantis...

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Traveler Enroute1

                          What about the ships in Battlestar Galactica and Farscape, all with lead characters? Why is the ship in Stargate SG1 so contentious?

                          Just askin', just sayin', night all.

                          Well, I can only answer for Farscape, since that's the only one I've seen. And, remember, this is just how I viewed it. One of the biggest problems for me with the ship was that I viewed it as pushing aside other relationships. Whenever I saw them pushing Jack and Sam, the show suddenly looked like "Jack'n'Sam -oh, and those other guys." The so called team ending in Threads, where Jack and Sam are in the front of the tv screen and are the only ones with lines, while Daniel and Teal'c come up from the background? That's how it felt. Again, I'm just saying how I saw it (so, for everyone, please don't try to convince me I'm wrong. I'll accept if you didn't see it that way, but that's all I'll accept). The more they pushed ship, the more they pushed away from the relationship I was invested in, the Jack and Daniel friendship. In Farscape, I never saw that. Crichton was totally in love with Aeryn, but I kept seeing his friendship with D'argo and Chianna. The bond between Aeryn and Pilot didn't fall back on the completely unsatisfactory "well, you know they're friends, so we don't have to show it all the time." They did show it.

                          And, it's a gender thing, too I think. In a way, Crichton took the Sam role. He was the one who tptb really invested in as far as feelings, although unlike Jack (imo) they did show Aeryn feeling that way. But, in a way it was kind of a role reversal. Don't want to give examples in case some new Farscape fans are just getting into the show. But, because it seems shows will always take care to make sure the man is more than the other half of a couple, having the focus fall more on his feelings, having him be the emoting one didn't make it seem like he needed a woman. Because they focused on more than that.

                          Also, there was no restrictions to them being together. So, there wasn't this long two steps forward two steps back that you knew was never never never going to be allowed to go anywhere.

                          And, last, the elusive chemistry. I saw chemistry between Crichton and Aeryn. I believed they were in love. Sam could shout it from a mountain top, and it wouldn't be believable to me. Jack could respond and I would still be cold. Just like I felt when John Carter screamed at Abby Lockhart that he wanted to marry her in ER. Yeah, they told me that he felt that way, but it didn't ring true. Because romantic chemistry? Nope, didn't see it. Carter and Kem? I believed it. Mulder and Scully? Big huge amounts of chemistry. And, the whole people in the foxhole argument made sense for them in a way it never made (to me) for Jack and Sam.

                          Each case is different. So many factors.
                          I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                          Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                          Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                          Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                          Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                          Comment


                            Good points Dani347 et al...

                            Since chemistry is in the eye of the beholder, I won't argue that point. I saw it, you didn't...no biggie.

                            I knew there'd never be anything between them while they were both on the show because it would change the team dynamic too much and I wouldn't want Sam shuffled to be a recurring character. I'm a fan of Carter first and want to see her do her Carter thing on a weekly basis. But I did hope that with Jack off the visible canvas and with the lead up they had at the end of Season 8, there'd be something slightly more given to the topic than "not exactly."

                            To answer your question, I guess since I am pragmatic, I will appreciate whatever I'm given that shows definitively that in the time she's away from the SGC, she's involved with Jack...proving categorically that a leading female character can have a romantic relationship without it affecting her work.

                            *still pulling for LOTS of Jack cameos next year*

                            ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

                            Comment


                              Maybe you're just better at being pragmatic than I am. But, if I were tptb, I would want to write something that I could fully explore. I don't even think I would spend too much time worrying what the shippers or anti shippers wanted. If I felt that Jack and Sam together was a good idea, I'd want to write them together. And, if I felt they had chemistry, I'd want to explore it between the two of them. So, all I can think is, this limbo, halfway thing was what they felt was satisfactory. Which doesn't make sense to me. Why would they want to write that? What fulfillment as writers did they get with something that they weren't going to let go anywhere?
                              I'm a girl! A girly girly girl!

                              Okay, you got me. I can't accept change. This message may look like it was typed on a computer and posted on the internet, but it is actually cave drawings delivered by smoke signals.

                              Naquada Enhanced Chastity Belts -SG1 edition. On sale now! Heck, I'll give them away

                              Daniel Jackson Appreciation and Discussion -because he's more than pretty

                              http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=89


                              Daniel Jackson: The Beacon of Hope and The Man Who Opened the Stargate

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Traveler Enroute1
                                Wow, this has been a work out for my poor fron!

                                I enjoyed this discourse and hope we can continue to enlighten one another on our opinions of ship. As I fall face down, can I pose a question to the few still standing which I will look at on the morrow?

                                What about the ships in Battlestar Galactica and Farscape, all with lead characters? Why is the ship in Stargate SG1 so contentious?

                                Just askin', just sayin', night all.
                                Dani did a wonderful job answering about Farscape (a show I absolutely adore, by the way, and John/Aeryn is my favorite ship ever), and I feel I can answer about BSG. Of course, as Dani said about Farscape, this is just how I view it.

                                BSG is an ensemble show in the true sense of the word. While Stargate focuses on its four main characters, BSG flits all over, alternatively featuring the main cast or recurring characters. There is no "core four" at all, but a rather large cast who all interact with one another. Because of that, if they ship any cast members they don't only have a pool of four to choose from, which unfortunately has the potential to focus on the shippy pair and neglect somewhat the non-shipped castmembers, at least in the minds of some fans, including myself.

                                BSG is a much, much grittier show than Stargate. Watch the midseason finale of Season 2, where there is
                                Spoiler:
                                an attempted rape rather graphically portrayed.
                                It's darker, it's sexier, and characters hook up with one another on a regular basis, depending on how the arc is moving. It's a much more character-driven show than Stargate, which is more episodic, and the ships flow from the character-driven stories and make sense. Well, they do to me anyway.

                                The main ship is, of course, Starbuck/Apollo. I ship those two, because, IMO, they have tons of chemistry and they're both fascinating characters. However, if they don't get together, I won't be bothered too much. This show is nothing but gritty reality, and in real life ships don't always work out.

                                I guess the difference for me is, I don't have any sense of entitlement about these two characters getting together, which I do see in the case of some S/J shippers. (Not all.) They've been hinting at Starbuck/Apollo ever since the miniseries, sometimes more than hints, but if Ron Moore decides it would be better for the story to keep those two apart so be it. It's such a fantastic series, and I'm more invested in the story as a whole than Starbuck/Apollo, or any of the other ships, such as Boomer/Helo, Billy/Dualla, etc. They would never devote an entire episode to any of the character's lovelives, ala Chimera or Threads. It just wouldn't happen. Ship is a part of the narrative, not the main focus.

                                My problem with Sam/Jack is, especially in seasons 7 and 8, at times it felt like the entire show was on hold in order to put the requisite shippy moment in there and to focus on those two. It didn't flow IMO, it didn't fit in the overall story, and quite frankly it felt shoehorned in and quite often pulled me out of the episode altogether. The moments felt manufactured to me and didn't feel like genuine feelings that flowed out of the storyline. I also felt that at times the whole shippy stuff altered the way the team interacted in a negative way, and I never saw this in Farascape or Battlestar Galactica. The ships on those shows always felt real to me and were part of the arc, not positioned in certain places to be sure there was a shippy moment or two.

                                Now my biggest complaint is that it still won't go away! I realize I'm not going to like every storyline out there but I really thought this one was finished. I'm one of the nonshippers Dani mentioned above who would be fine with one definite statement that S/J are together, if it would mean the end of it so we could move on.
                                Last edited by Jonisa; 27 November 2005, 05:19 AM.

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