Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[fyere]

Something fun: The Jack & Sam Friend-a-thon is live on Livejournal! Lots of stories centering around Jack and Sam as friends and teammates, no shippiness whatsoever!

http://community.livejournal.com/jacksamfriends/

[Frostfox]

Something fun: The Jack & Sam Friend-a-thon is live on Livejournal! Lots of stories centering around Jack and Sam as friends and teammates, no shippiness whatsoever!

http://community.livejournal.com/jacksamfriends/

Ooh sound good!
But I have to go pick up my house guest from the station, then we are at Eastercon for the weekend.
Maybe Tuesday before I get to read, but thank you very much for pointing this out, the world needs more Sam and Jack friendship fics.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Totally agree on the *friend* chemistry the cast had going. That vibe was totally natural feeling. the "romance" was forced and uncomfortable--and I don't think I'm being completely influenced by my disappointment that TPTB went that route.

I don't think you are either.

It was forced and uncomfortable and downright embarrassing to watch at times, for Sam and Jack as well as the viewer.

See. This is what really upsets me about the whole J/S so-called romance: The *friend* chemistry was undeniable and it positively shone through the cast and into the characters. The team were friends; there was a wonderful, natural, unforced chemistry. Ask most people what they loved about the show and it's the team because that was at the core of it. Shippers wanted team, slashers wanted team, genners wanted team .... we all loved the team. So why, in the name of of all that's holy, did they mess with that by skewing all the relationships to accommodate alleged feeeeeelings?
Seriously. It's not rocket science. Forget pandering to a particularly vocal fangroup. Just give what most folk want.
Simple.

The sad shift of the team dynamic is my greatest gripe about the ship. Among many others.

[Frostfox]

I don't think you are either.

It was forced and uncomfortable and downright embarrassing to watch at times, for Sam and Jack as well as the viewer.

See. This is what really upsets me about the whole J/S so-called romance: The *friend* chemistry was undeniable and it positively shone through the cast and into the characters. The team were friends; there was a wonderful, natural, unforced chemistry. Ask most people what they loved about the show and it's the team because that was at the core of it. Shippers wanted team, slashers wanted team, genners wanted team .... we all loved the team. So why, in the name of of all that's holy, did they mess with that by skewing all the relationships to accommodate alleged feeeeeelings?
Seriously. It's not rocket science. Forget pandering to a particularly vocal fangroup. Just give what most folk want.
Simple.

The sad shift of the team dynamic is my greatest gripe about the ship. Among many others.

The kind of chemistry the 'big four' shared is TV gold. It's why the show had legs.
And the basic question is, did The Great Romance add anything to the show? Did they use it to explore the dynamics of a CO/2IC relationship? Did they use it to examine the politics of being a woman in a man's world? Did it address the dangers of becoming too close to a member of your team?
Or was it just dragged out now and then, when the writers felt they needed to get a reaction from the audience. Was it ignored for episodes at a time only to be dredged up and shoehorned into a story?
Did it, on balance, harm both the characters and plots more than it enhanced?
At times I got the feeling that actors, writers and crew were almost doing it by rote, because a TV show needs a romance (does it?), rather than because it progressed the story or the character development in any logical manner.

FF

[Callista]

*waves at DSG1* Welcome!


I think another problem I have with this ship is that even Jack and Sam don't seem to be able to tell if they're really attracted to the other and if the other is really attracted to them. In D&C, Sam kind of drags the confession out of Jack, doesn't she? (I'm asking because I'm not sure that I remember that correctly as I have only seen that ep a couple of times.) It's as if it never would have occured to his conscious mind why that machine is calling him a liar. In "Grace", Sam tells her hallucination of Jack that if she only knew his feelings she'd quit her job to be with him (I presume she just means the team and not completely quit the Air Force) but the hallucination gives this weird answer about being a safe bet and it seems to be implied that she's just using her attraction to him as an excuse not to try with anyone else. In "Lost City" Sam comes over and they have this halting conversation and neither of them says anything important to the other even though he's about to go ancient and die. In "Threads" she all of the sudden breaks things off with Pete and runs over to Jack's and we get the horrible awkward scene in his back yard (Kerry even says it's awkward!) where the three of them stand there looking at each other until Sam gets the news that Jacob is sick.

Aren't those sort of considered the main "shippy" episodes? There are other little glances and lingering looks in other episodes, but I don't remember them really trying to talk about things at all in any others where it's our actual Jack and Sam and not an alternate of some sort....maybe "Heroes", but I'm not remembering what they said when Sam comes to Jack's infirmary room. We also have a smattering of episodes where one or the other of them is in peril and the safe one spends time worrying about them, but those scenes don't do anything to let the imperiled person know about the other's feelings.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is how can two people work this closely together for this many years without cracking at some point and saying: "Look buddy/sister! What exactly are your intentions here? And if you do really like or even love me, what are you prepared to do?!" (I'm quoting Sean Connery in "The Untouchables" there with that last bit if you care to add his accent. It makes it a much more compelling question. )

[Khentkawes]

Sorry, Khentkawes, I love playing devils advocate!

Hey don't apologize. Why would you need to apologize for playing devil's advocate, especially when it results in hilariously funny posts like this.

I think there is also discussion material in the different phases SG1 has gone through.

Phase one was seasons 1-3 – not much ‘shippy’ rubbish, some underlying attraction but both S and J act like mature adults/USAF officers over it. The team is the thing. The attraction doesn’t detract from the show, the fans of S/J are happy, the rest of us just ignore. I like fans to be happy, if S/J makes them happy, that’s great. If it makes them happy at the expense of other things, the team, the show dynamics, common sense, that’s not okay.

"Some underlying attraction"? Where? Only when they're drugged, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, I never saw the attraction. Well, okay, I saw it, but only because I'd heard the shippers chanting about it. But I never saw it without it being pointed out to me.

Phase two was 4-8 – ‘The ‘Ship’ is brought to the fore, with all the subtlety of a plank across the back of the head, you will see the attraction between these two characters, whether you want to or not. It then disappears in season 5, then pops back uglier than ever in 7 & 8. Many violins are smothered in syrup and camera lens in Vaseline to try and convince the fans that this is the greatest love story since Romeo and Juliet. And just as tragic, but with a small ‘T’. Both characters act like love struck teenagers at in appropriate moments which damages both of them. Fans are left in no doubt that the leader of the SGC’s flagship team has inappropriate feelings for his 2IC and that any woman not swooning at Jack’s feet is clearly defective in some way. The feeling of team comes and goes, the writers prove they can’t focus on a relationship and a team at the same time. TPTB still can’t please all the viewers, fans who don’t like S/J become more vocal, fans which do become sick of being led around by the nose.

Laughing at the bolded parts. I'm still not sure that I believed the leader of SG-1 had inappropriate feelings for his 2IC. I believe that Sam believed he had inappropriate feelings for her. But I'm not always convinced about Jack's feelings. Actually, I'm rarely convinced of Jack's feelings (for reasons that Callista will explain for me in a quote later in this post).

See. This is what really upsets me about the whole J/S so-called romance: The *friend* chemistry was undeniable and it positively shone through the cast and into the characters. The team were friends; there was a wonderful, natural, unforced chemistry. Ask most people what they loved about the show and it's the team because that was at the core of it. Shippers wanted team, slashers wanted team, genners wanted team .... we all loved the team. So why, in the name of of all that's holy, did they mess with that by skewing all the relationships to accommodate alleged feeeeeelings?
Seriously. It's not rocket science. Forget pandering to a particularly vocal fangroup. Just give what most folk want.
Simple.

I'm like a broken record here, but honestly: Team dynamic! Great friendships! Comfortable, friendly interaction between main cast!

What's not to love with that formula? It's the reason I fell in love with SG-1 in the first place.

At times I got the feeling that actors, writers and crew were almost doing it by rote, because a TV show needs a romance (does it?), rather than because it progressed the story or the character development in any logical manner.

I had the same feeling. It seemed like they thought it was expected, so they did it. But I never saw much enthusiasm for it on screen. And in answer to the question: no, a TV show does not necessarily need a romance. IMHO.

I think another problem I have with this ship is that even Jack and Sam don't seem to be able to tell if they're really attracted to the other and if the other is really attracted to them. In D&C, Sam kind of drags the confession out of Jack, doesn't she? (I'm asking because I'm not sure that I remember that correctly as I have only seen that ep a couple of times.) It's as if it never would have occured to his conscious mind why that machine is calling him a liar. In "Grace", Sam tells her hallucination of Jack that if she only knew his feelings she'd quit her job to be with him (I presume she just means the team and not completely quit the Air Force) but the hallucination gives this weird answer about being a safe bet and it seems to be implied that she's just using her attraction to him as an excuse not to try with anyone else. In "Lost City" Sam comes over and they have this halting conversation and neither of them says anything important to the other even though he's about to go ancient and die. In "Threads" she all of the sudden breaks things off with Pete and runs over to Jack's and we get the horrible awkward scene in his back yard (Kerry even says it's awkward!) where the three of them stand there looking at each other until Sam gets the news that Jacob is sick.

Exactly! They never seem all that certain of their feelings. And yes, I think you're right that Sam had to sort of drag the words out of Jack in D&C. She almost prompts him along, from what I recall. But these major moments showing such uncertainty and lack of confidence in their own feelings doesn't make any sense. Especially since neither of these characters have displayed a lack of confidence before. I've heard the argument that Sam isn't very confident in regards to relationships, but she stood up to Jonas Hanson and broke off their engagement. That takes a heck of a lot of confidence. And she told Martouf flat out that she wasn't sure if she felt anything for him or if she was just experiencing Jolinar's feelings. And she was pretty direct with Orlin in making sure that he followed her wishes and being sure that he understood how she felt about him. So why is she suddenly so uncertain and indirect when dealing with her feelings for Jack? And what about Jack? Sure, he's not very touchy-feely, but he also doesn't hold back his opinions about things. If he has an opinion, the chances are that he won't hide it. So why is he so non-committal in this instance? Basically, it seems like the characters don't know how they feel, and so they both blunder through these moments that were meant to be shippy.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is how can two people work this closely together for this many years without cracking at some point and saying: "Look buddy/sister! What exactly are your intentions here? And if you do really like or even love me, what are you prepared to do?!" (I'm quoting Sean Connery in "The Untouchables" there with that last bit if you care to add his accent. It makes it a much more compelling question. )

Nice touch with the Sean Connery.
I agree here too. It was too long for them to ignore the issue. If they weren't sure how the other one felt, then that would be a nagging issue. I don't know many people who can handle the stress of a nagging issue like that for years without getting fed up and finally just addressing the issue in a direct fashion. Which is what they should have done. But the writers didn't do that, because it's a TV truism that romantic relationships become less interesting once they're resolved... so TV show producers try to drag them out to infinity and beyond.

[jckfan55]

IIRC, in D&C she does have to prompt him about the "truth" they withheld from the Zatarc test when he says "I didn't lie". The other prompting was just b/c he didn't want to come out and say "I care for her more than I'm supposed to."

I totally agree with Khentkawes that I didn't see the "underlying attraction" in S1-3. ("only when they're drugged" ) I've "made" my sister watch the episodes in order & have not spoilered. Around the time she finished S3 I told her about S/J shippers. She said "really?" she just didn't see it either.

[discodiva]

The question about S/J "Confirmation" came up a couple of times at the Van Con...I'm afraid I didn't take much notice as I was at the back and my attention wandered a little during the replies.....as far as I can gather it was pretty much the "standard" answer from Ms Tapping...she thought that they deserved some "pay off" for waiting all these years and that they should at least finally "shag" (for want of a better word), then perhaps "date", "go fishing"....some of the crowd seemed to enjoy that.....I went to get a glass of water....


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

The question about S/J "Confirmation" came up a couple of times at the Van Con...I'm afraid I didn't take much notice as I was at the back and my attention wandered a little during the replies.....as far as I can gather it was pretty much the "standard" answer from Ms Tapping...she thought that they deserved some "pay off" for waiting all these years and that they should at least finally "shag" (for want of a better word), then perhaps "date", "go fishing"....some of the crowd seemed to enjoy that.....I went to get a glass of water....


Deeds xx

Just back from an utterly splendid Eastercon. Made enough money selling art to cover the cost of the con, was on lots of prog items, used the pool/sauna/steam room, ate and drank and talked with friends too much!

Some suitably religious thinky for Easter Monday.

The need for absolute and undeniable 'confirmation' reminds me of the more aggressive types of religion. Where their own doubts magnify their need to prove the validity of their beliefs.
Where as those who are secure in their faith don't need proof or to badger others or try to convert other groups. True faith comes from the depths of your own self worth and tolerance of other points of view, the more you require proof, the less faith you have.

FF

[MerryK]

Just back from an utterly splendid Eastercon. Made enough money selling art to cover the cost of the con, was on lots of prog items, used the pool/sauna/steam room, ate and drank and talked with friends too much!

Some suitably religious thinky for Easter Monday.

The need for absolute and undeniable 'confirmation' reminds me of the more aggressive types of religion. Where their own doubts magnify their need to prove the validity of their beliefs.
Where as those who are secure in their faith don't need proof or to badger others or try to convert other groups. True faith comes from the depths of your own self worth and tolerance of other points of view, the more you require proof, the less faith you have.

FF

Good points. I've noticed that pattern among shippers in general, that the ones who are sure about who they ship don't care what in particular happens on screen

[Frostfox]

Good points. I've noticed that pattern among shippers in general, that the ones who are sure about who they ship don't care what in particular happens on screen

Oh yes, it seems to be a universal trend, fans secure in their fandom are much more accepting of other fans ideas and likes.

FF

[Frostfox]

*waves at DSG1* Welcome!


I think another problem I have with this ship is that even Jack and Sam don't seem to be able to tell if they're really attracted to the other and if the other is really attracted to them. In D&C, Sam kind of drags the confession out of Jack, doesn't she? (I'm asking because I'm not sure that I remember that correctly as I have only seen that ep a couple of times.) It's as if it never would have occured to his conscious mind why that machine is calling him a liar. In "Grace", Sam tells her hallucination of Jack that if she only knew his feelings she'd quit her job to be with him (I presume she just means the team and not completely quit the Air Force) but the hallucination gives this weird answer about being a safe bet and it seems to be implied that she's just using her attraction to him as an excuse not to try with anyone else. In "Lost City" Sam comes over and they have this halting conversation and neither of them says anything important to the other even though he's about to go ancient and die. In "Threads" she all of the sudden breaks things off with Pete and runs over to Jack's and we get the horrible awkward scene in his back yard (Kerry even says it's awkward!) where the three of them stand there looking at each other until Sam gets the news that Jacob is sick.

Aren't those sort of considered the main "shippy" episodes? There are other little glances and lingering looks in other episodes, but I don't remember them really trying to talk about things at all in any others where it's our actual Jack and Sam and not an alternate of some sort....maybe "Heroes", but I'm not remembering what they said when Sam comes to Jack's infirmary room. We also have a smattering of episodes where one or the other of them is in peril and the safe one spends time worrying about them, but those scenes don't do anything to let the imperiled person know about the other's feelings.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is how can two people work this closely together for this many years without cracking at some point and saying: "Look buddy/sister! What exactly are your intentions here? And if you do really like or even love me, what are you prepared to do?!" (I'm quoting Sean Connery in "The Untouchables" there with that last bit if you care to add his accent. It makes it a much more compelling question. )

That’s what astonishes me, they want us to believe in this love affair but they don’t write it in a believable or mature manner. They don’t have their characters act like adults. ‘I love him but I don’t know if he loves me’ doesn’t wash for characters over the age of 17, particularly over a decade or more.
Threads was particularly horrific. I had no great interest in the Pete storyline but they treated the character very shoddily; the implication was that his sin was to fall in love with Jack’s Woman (excuse me while I puke at the image of Sam Carter, decorated Airforce officer, multiple PHD, bright, spunky, beautiful, reduced to that). I also don't like the implication that Jack is the Catch of all Catches, that all women swoon at the thought of his virile glory. Er, no, RDA/Jack is sexy, but I hope we have progressed beyond the cave man?
I cringed all through the BBQ scene.
I'm savvy enough to know what TPTB wanted the scene to be - Sam plucks up the courage to tell her beloved how she feels feeeeeeeelings for him but is thwarted by his current girlfriend and the call from the SGC about her father. What they wanted was a touching scene of Sam's courage and crossed wires and for the audience to be rooting for it all to Turn Out Right.
What we got?
Sam dressed like a frumpy middle aged school ma'am. I know Amanda was pregnant, but why make her look so dull? Not helped by Jack's girlfriend looking radiantly beautiful, glowing with health.
Stilted, awkward silences, inter-spaced with stuttering attempts to broach feeling feeeeelings with a man who's clearly just shagged the girlfriend and is now enjoying a private BBQ with her.
And Jack seems so bloody embarrassed that poor Sam is there, like some stuttering school girl or some repressed spinster, there's no warmth towards her, not feeling that he'd rather have her there, rather than his current squeeze.
It's embarrassing from start to finish, particularly for Sam, my second favourite character in the show. I don't like the implied relationship, but if you are going to do it, for heavens sake, make it believable, make it realistic, don't wreak your characters dignity in the process. Have the courage in your convictions to make it part of the show, rather than trying to shoehorn it in at inappropriate moments (and please don't kill Jacob Carter just so Sam can get all cuddly with her boss at work, what a waste of a great character).

FF

[Frostfox]

Hey don't apologize. Why would you need to apologize for playing devil's advocate, especially when it results in hilariously funny posts like this.

"Some underlying attraction"? Where? Only when they're drugged, as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, I never saw the attraction. Well, okay, I saw it, but only because I'd heard the shippers chanting about it. But I never saw it without it being pointed out to me.

But darling, it's twu wuv, there must be something wrong with you if you don't think that!

Laughing at the bolded parts. I'm still not sure that I believed the leader of SG-1 had inappropriate feelings for his 2IC. I believe that Sam believed he had inappropriate feelings for her. But I'm not always convinced about Jack's feelings. Actually, I'm rarely convinced of Jack's feelings (for reasons that Callista will explain for me in a quote later in this post).

True, but I believe that TPTB intended me to think that Jack had feeeeeelings for Sam.

I'm like a broken record here, but honestly: Team dynamic! Great friendships! Comfortable, friendly interaction between main cast!

What's not to love with that formula? It's the reason I fell in love with SG-1 in the first place.

But twu wuv is so much more important! Weren't you getting the memos?

I had the same feeling. It seemed like they thought it was expected, so they did it. But I never saw much enthusiasm for it on screen. And in answer to the question: no, a TV show does not necessarily need a romance. IMHO.

It can work in shows, it is the staple of soaps. If TPTB were so enamored of schmaltzy romance, they should have worked on a soap opera.

Exactly! They never seem all that certain of their feelings. And yes, I think you're right that Sam had to sort of drag the words out of Jack in D&C. She almost prompts him along, from what I recall. But these major moments showing such uncertainty and lack of confidence in their own feelings doesn't make any sense. Especially since neither of these characters have displayed a lack of confidence before. I've heard the argument that Sam isn't very confident in regards to relationships, but she stood up to Jonas Hanson and broke off their engagement. That takes a heck of a lot of confidence. And she told Martouf flat out that she wasn't sure if she felt anything for him or if she was just experiencing Jolinar's feelings. And she was pretty direct with Orlin in making sure that he followed her wishes and being sure that he understood how she felt about him. So why is she suddenly so uncertain and indirect when dealing with her feelings for Jack? And what about Jack? Sure, he's not very touchy-feely, but he also doesn't hold back his opinions about things. If he has an opinion, the chances are that he won't hide it. So why is he so non-committal in this instance? Basically, it seems like the characters don't know how they feel, and so they both blunder through these moments that were meant to be shippy.

There really is no excuse for such sloppy, inconsistent, characterization, they can't decide what they want from either story or characters. The relationship disappears for months then they drag it out again. When they do drag it out, they force their characters to act out of character for the purpose of the 'shippy plot line, disregarding their own canon and previous characterization, not to mention good taste and believability.
And then they wonder why people don't all swoon over the mess they create.

Nice touch with the Sean Connery.
I agree here too. It was too long for them to ignore the issue. If they weren't sure how the other one felt, then that would be a nagging issue. I don't know many people who can handle the stress of a nagging issue like that for years without getting fed up and finally just addressing the issue in a direct fashion. Which is what they should have done. But the writers didn't do that, because it's a TV truism that romantic relationships become less interesting once they're resolved... so TV show producers try to drag them out to infinity and beyond.

And so they tick off the fans of the relationship as much as those who don't like it. How very clever of them. It was painfully clear that they were never going to go for any realistic conclusion to the plot line while they could milk it for all the melodrama they could. The worst of both worlds. And people wonder why I never, ever want TPTB to muck around with the slash dynamic, I'll stick with the fanfic writers and artists, they will do a much better job, thank you very much.

FF

[DSG1]

Waves hello again. I agree with you guys 100 percent.

I always thought the relationship was forced and out of place.

I'm a fan of the characters but not the ship.

[DSG1]

*waves at DSG1* Welcome!


I think another problem I have with this ship is that even Jack and Sam don't seem to be able to tell if they're really attracted to the other and if the other is really attracted to them. In D&C, Sam kind of drags the confession out of Jack, doesn't she? (I'm asking because I'm not sure that I remember that correctly as I have only seen that ep a couple of times.) It's as if it never would have occured to his conscious mind why that machine is calling him a liar. In "Grace", Sam tells her hallucination of Jack that if she only knew his feelings she'd quit her job to be with him (I presume she just means the team and not completely quit the Air Force) but the hallucination gives this weird answer about being a safe bet and it seems to be implied that she's just using her attraction to him as an excuse not to try with anyone else. In "Lost City" Sam comes over and they have this halting conversation and neither of them says anything important to the other even though he's about to go ancient and die. In "Threads" she all of the sudden breaks things off with Pete and runs over to Jack's and we get the horrible awkward scene in his back yard (Kerry even says it's awkward!) where the three of them stand there looking at each other until Sam gets the news that Jacob is sick.

Aren't those sort of considered the main "shippy" episodes? There are other little glances and lingering looks in other episodes, but I don't remember them really trying to talk about things at all in any others where it's our actual Jack and Sam and not an alternate of some sort....maybe "Heroes", but I'm not remembering what they said when Sam comes to Jack's infirmary room. We also have a smattering of episodes where one or the other of them is in peril and the safe one spends time worrying about them, but those scenes don't do anything to let the imperiled person know about the other's feelings.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is how can two people work this closely together for this many years without cracking at some point and saying: "Look buddy/sister! What exactly are your intentions here? And if you do really like or even love me, what are you prepared to do?!" (I'm quoting Sean Connery in "The Untouchables" there with that last bit if you care to add his accent. It makes it a much more compelling question. )

hmm, not sure what happened to my prev. post but waves hello. I couldn't agree with you more.