Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Good old AT. Always knew she was on our side.

But honestly. If Sam and Jack are having some sort of clandestine, long-distance wuv affair, as we're being led to believe by some folk, are we also to believe, in deference to the regs, that haven't slept together yet? What are they? Teenagers?

Oh, for a believable, adult relationship ... Jack had one, with Sara, of course. I wish they'd explored that further. I liked and believed in that pairing.

I always thought Amanda just wanted the best for her character and could see the damage being done by making her half of a pair, rather than writing her as an independent character.

It is incredibly juvenile, watching two adults behave like teenagers. It smacks of infatuation, rather than genuine love; they don't know each other well enough and due to their situation (Jack being Sam's CO) they can't spend enough time alone away from work to get to know each other.
They are both attractive people, Sam hero worshiping Jack is natural, I can see how lust and infatuation could develop but a long term, real relationship? No way, not with the current show canon of the last 12+ years.

Sam, we have been told wants a family, though TPTB have been inconsistent in this and it sounds much more like lip service than a true need - she's pushing 40, if she'd wanted children, she'd have had one by now, it's a pretty powerful urge. I can't ever see Jack getting married and having kids again, too painful, even after a decade or more, Jack internalizes his pain, unlike Daniel who will talk about it. And the more you live alone, the more comfortable you become with your own company, the compromise of living together becomes greater and greater until it's out of the picture.
Can you really visualsize the conversation over a child between them, how stilted and forced it would be. And the idea of Sam getting pregnant without consulting Jack is horrendous.
This is supposedly a love written in the stars, soul-mates, the perfect couple and just the idea of an adult, real, normal conversation between them is laughable.
It's not the characters who are at fault, it's the inconsistent and juvenile writing which kills the romance and turns it into farce. This could have been a serious and interesting plot about power and human emotions, about honour and duty. But instead it was used for superficial and sometimes embarrassing scenes which took away from the show's team emphasis and didn't show either character in a good light.

FF

[Frostfox]

I was thinking, while doing boring, mundane housework (how apropos) about J/S/SG1 and Life on Mars.

I loved Life on Mars (UK version), I like adult dramas - West Wing, QAF, The Shield, grown up programming doesn't have to have sex and violence to be mature (though sometimes it has both).

Loads of spoilery stuff for LonM UK including details of the ending.

Spoiler:

Life on Mars pressed all my buttons.
Grown up plots, great buddy show, romance, angst, strong stories and stronger characters.
The last few minutes of the last episode, Sam, back in the 21st century, commits suicide by jumping off a building so he can go back to Annie and the 70's. The love which grows between Annie and Sam is a thread which runs through the series, it's an important part of the show but it's never a melodrama, it never diminishes or eclipses the other characters and relationships.
Sam doesn't kill himself to be with Annie, it's much more nuanced and subtle than that; his dislocation and dissatisfaction with the 21st century, the companionship and sense of purpose he has found with Gene and the other officers are just as important.
On one level, it's a tragedy, a man is committing suicide, but on the other hand, you cheered him on, through the tears, because you knew what he was giving up (his mother, his girlfriend, his life and achievements in the 21st C) and why he was doing it; the loss was worth what he would gain.

The writers got the balance of romance, drama, buddies and message right. Sam and Gene is the core of the show, their frisson and friendship is cleverly balanced with all the other elements. Jack, Daniel, Sam and Teal'c is the core of SG1, every time S/J overshadowed and diminished that core, the show became unbalanced and lost it's heart.
Perhaps I am expecting too much from SG1? It's an action adventure show, I should be content with what they gave us, but striving to be more than that is good for the show, it strengthens it and and makes for better drama. I don't think I'm wrong for wanting that.

FF

[Frostfox]

A question for you.

Every SG1 viewer is slightly different, every member of this thread watches SG1 and gets different things from it.

Some of us don't 'see' Sam & Jack as a couple at all.
Some see it as an infatuation on Sam's part.
Some as inappropriate behaviour on Jack's part.

Myself? I can see that TPTB wanted to throw them together. I don't think they did a very convincing job; they seemed to forget all about it for episode after episode, then, just when you think they've got away from the soap, up it pops again. They didn't have the courage of their convictions to make it believable, why the coy language in some of the season eight episodes (such as Threads when Kerry talks to Jack and never even gives a pronoun to hint at the gender of who she's talking about, let alone naming Sam).
I don't like it, but for heavens sake, if you are going to put two of your principle characters in a relationship, at least have them acting like adults and make it a real part of your show (see Odo/Kira or Crichton/Aryn) rather than the hide and seek, peekaboo which drives the people who don't like the idea nuts and leads those who do like it round by the nose for over a decade.

You?

FF

[Callista]

I didn't see it at all until Divide and Conquer where, as I've said before, I think it was introduced in the worst possible way because it makes it look like Jack and Sam care less about their friends (because it implies they would have left Daniel and/or Teal'c behind), know what they're doing is wrong and agree to forget about it (So why bring it up then, if you're going to forget about it? And if you're not going to forget about it, why say you're going to and then have the characters appear kind of weak because they can't control their "throbbing biological urges" to quote Jack's favorite TV show.), and it was a completely engineered scenario set-up for no other reason than to show them looking longingly into each other's eyes.

After that, I agree that it would go away for a while and then pop back up and I never really knew what they were going for, but I couldn't deny that something was apparently up between them whether they were acting on it or not.

We're talking about "Grace" now on the team thread and there's the interpretation that up to that point Sam was just using her feelings for Jack as an excuse not to try building a relationship with anyone else. I don't really like that either, because it kind of diminishes Sam's strength in my eyes. Except for the shippy moments in the show, I've always seen her as a strong, capable, brilliant, compassionate, professional woman. Sure, she's got flaws like any good fictional character, but I'm not sure I buy that behind all of that has been lurking a scared shrinking violet in the romantic relationship department.

I don't know who is the more "committed" of the two of them. Sam seems to want to talk about it more, but Jack certainly doesn't do anything to stop her and set things straight. And if he really doesn't have any feelings for her then what kind of a commanding officer/person is he to let her keep deluding herself that they have a future? I don't want to think of Jack as that kind of man, so I guess my only other option is to conclude that he is romantically attracted to her.

I agree that by not either having the relationship end when they said it would or having the two of them be strong and brave enough to make things right so they could be together, it ends up leaving the fans either having lower opinions of both of them (during the shippy scenes) or wanting something they are never going to get....or might get, but only after years and years and years of waiting. Then you have two groups of disgruntled fans in addition to all the people who couldn't care less in the first place. That doesn't seem like the best strategy to me, but then what do I know about writing for TV?

[Frostfox]

I didn't see it at all until Divide and Conquer where, as I've said before, I think it was introduced in the worst possible way because it makes it look like Jack and Sam care less about their friends (because it implies they would have left Daniel and/or Teal'c behind), know what they're doing is wrong and agree to forget about it (So why bring it up then, if you're going to forget about it? And if you're not going to forget about it, why say you're going to and then have the characters appear kind of weak because they can't control their "throbbing biological urges" to quote Jack's favorite TV show.), and it was a completely engineered scenario set-up for no other reason than to show them looking longingly into each other's eyes.

After that, I agree that it would go away for a while and then pop back up and I never really knew what they were going for, but I couldn't deny that something was apparently up between them whether they were acting on it or not.

We're talking about "Grace" now on the team thread and there's the interpretation that up to that point Sam was just using her feelings for Jack as an excuse not to try building a relationship with anyone else. I don't really like that either, because it kind of diminishes Sam's strength in my eyes. Except for the shippy moments in the show, I've always seen her as a strong, capable, brilliant, compassionate, professional woman. Sure, she's got flaws like any good fictional character, but I'm not sure I buy that behind all of that has been lurking a scared shrinking violet in the romantic relationship department.

I don't know who is the more "committed" of the two of them. Sam seems to want to talk about it more, but Jack certainly doesn't do anything to stop her and set things straight. And if he really doesn't have any feelings for her then what kind of a commanding officer/person is he to let her keep deluding herself that they have a future? I don't want to think of Jack as that kind of man, so I guess my only other option is to conclude that he is romantically attracted to her.

I agree that by not either having the relationship end when they said it would or having the two of them be strong and brave enough to make things right so they could be together, it ends up leaving the fans either having lower opinions of both of them (during the shippy scenes) or wanting something they are never going to get....or might get, but only after years and years and years of waiting. Then you have two groups of disgruntled fans in addition to all the people who couldn't care less in the first place. That doesn't seem like the best strategy to me, but then what do I know about writing for TV?

Exactly.
I'm sure there was a really interesting, conflicted, difficult but rewarding TV show, about a CO and his 2IC and the problems of affection they can't act upon, in there somewhere. The SG1 where Sam had to be transferred to another team, but was still one of the leads of the show. The SG1 where they acted upon it and had to deal with the fallout. The SG1 which addressed the inherent conflicts and told us a compelling and moving story about it.
Unfortunately, in our reality, that didn't happen.

I've been reading the Team Discussion Thread, some interesting points made, but it doesn't seem fair to go and spread my vitriol over S/J heavy episodes when I haven't had the time or energy to join in the thread thus far. 'Cos, as I said, pulling holes in S/J is just too easy, so many things wrong with it, you can always come up with dozens of reasons why it's detrimental to the show.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Exactly.
I'm sure there was a really interesting, conflicted, difficult but rewarding TV show, about a CO and his 2IC and the problems of affection they can't act upon, in there somewhere. The SG1 where Sam had to be transferred to another team, but was still one of the leads of the show. The SG1 where they acted upon it and had to deal with the fallout. The SG1 which addressed the inherent conflicts and told us a compelling and moving story about it.
Unfortunately, in our reality, that didn't happen.

Are you sure? Because I don't think that could be a compelling story (at least not for me) unless we were in a very divergent alternate reality.

Okay, well, that's not fair. If Daniel and Teal'c didn't exist, then yes, I agree that whole plan could have worked. It would have been interesting to see Sam transferred to another team and how they would deal with that, and how they would handle the consequences of their actions (since it irritates me that there never were any consequences).

But because we have Daniel and Teal'c in the picture, and because they have both been a major part of the series since the beginning, I don't think that they could do that without totally (or at least mostly) sidelining Daniel and Teal'c. It would be too hard to switch from a team with four important characters, to a major romance with two characters who aren't on the same team.

If it was a show like Farscape, which was an ensemble, but also showed John and Aeryn as the "leads" from the beginning, than it could have worked. But the problem with adding romance into SG-1 is that the two characters in the romance usually get promoted to "lead" status by default... and in SG-1, they essentially had four leads. I've heard people try to argue that Sam and Jack were leads, or that Daniel and Jack were leads, or that Jack was the lead and the others were all supporting characters... but the fact that we can argue about it proves to me that there wasn't a single lead. There is room for interpretation and there is a case for any or all of them as leads... with the possibly exception of poor Teal'c, since no one seems to think he's a lead. Well, except for those of us who consider them ALL to be leads.

So I guess I agree that the show you're suggesting could work... but only if they had started with that plan in mind in season 1. Because they would have had to set it up that way. Instead they set it up as a team with everyone being roughly equal to each other. So the romance ruins the wonderful dynamic they created, and they didn't even seem to realize that it was fundamentally opposed to the way that they set up the series.

*deep breath* Okay, I don't know where that rant came from. Rant over now. Move along. Nothing more to see here. *whistles innocently*

(Note: I'll come back and answer FF's question later... right now I have to stop procrastinating and get some work done).

[LoneStar1836]

If it was a show like Farscape, which was an ensemble, but also showed John and Aeryn as the "leads" from the beginning, than it could have worked. But the problem with adding romance into SG-1 is that the two characters in the romance usually get promoted to "lead" status by default... and in SG-1, they essentially had four leads. I've heard people try to argue that Sam and Jack were leads, or that Daniel and Jack were leads, or that Jack was the lead and the others were all supporting characters... but the fact that we can argue about it proves to me that there wasn't a single lead. There is room for interpretation and there is a case for any or all of them as leads... with the possibly exception of poor Teal'c, since no one seems to think he's a lead. Well, except for those of us who consider them ALL to be leads.

Agreed.

And Teal'c was most definitely a lead. Heck the whole show is essentially his story, his journey...from slavery to a false god to freedom for all his people, something he once thought never achievable. Outside of him, I'd say Daniel's story was of the next greatest importance. All my opinion of course.

Not to diminish Jack and Carter's part of the story, but I just don't think it was so much about them. They were major players and contributors to the story, but their actual personal journeys were not that expansive. They grew and changed as characters but not as much as the other two. And ship was of no help to that character growth....

Ship between those two had no place on the show. The show was not conceptualized like that...a team of explorers, exploring other planets...not each other. Ship was an after thought, and whoever thought it would be good to introduce to the show needs to be shot.

Don't get me wrong. I love love love good character stuff in tv shows (and even ships), but SG-1 was more about the story than the personal character relationships, imo. Shipping the main leads felt out of place on the show.


Did anyone else here watch the tv show JAG? Lasted like 10 seasons or something. Basically military courtroom procedural. The two leads were both in the military, though different branches...Harm was in the Navy and Mac was in the Marines. No real chain of command thing going on with them and they were close in rank even though Harm out ranked her until he was busted down a rank for something he did. They were just coworkers. I have no idea what military rules there would be about a relationship between the two, but the show didn't seriously go there until like the very last season or two. I'm a tick fuzzy on the details because it has been a while since I've watched the show.

They started off butting heads with each other (like Jack and Carter did) when Mac joined the show, but their friendship and respect for one another grew over the seasons. There was UST over the seasons, but I was never too keen on the two really getting together because I didn't want it messing up their working relationship as well as their good friendship, and hopefully the writers saw it that way. I could see the two together (unlike S/J which I could never imagine at all), but the show wisely kept them apart until like the very last episode of the show. Even though the show kept them apart until the end, it did flirt with the idea of them together before that, but the writers made the characters mature enough to discuss it when the issue surfaced...something S/J never did on SG-1.

Anyway as far as military officer relationships are concerned on a tv show, I thought JAG did a pretty good job of writing and balancing it between the two leads. While the show flirted with the idea of getting the two leads together, it did a decent job of keeping them apart for people who didn't want them together all the while keeping the hopes up of those that did want them together, imo.

The writers of SG-1 just had it all wrong as far as I was concerned. I don't think S/J ship ever overpowered the show...well except in Threads, but it did diminish the show and the characters when it was brought up in episodes. It was something that could never be on the show, but even that was so poorly handled. They couldn't even flirt with the idea in a decent manner. In the end I did end up feeling rather sorry for the people who shipped them only to be yanked around like they were in the end.

Putting aside my big problems with the chain of command thing, the big age difference of having Jack the same age as her father, and then the practically non existent chemistry between those characters when ship was forced upon them, the writers just basically sucked at writing S/J ship. But I maintain there was never any room for it to begin with on the show.

So I guess I agree that the show you're suggesting could work... but only if they had started with that plan in mind in season 1. Because they would have had to set it up that way. Instead they set it up as a team with everyone being roughly equal to each other. So the romance ruins the wonderful dynamic they created, and they didn't even seem to realize that it was fundamentally opposed to the way that they set up the series.

That basically says it all right there as far as how it interfered with the show and was out of place.

[Khentkawes]

Did anyone else here watch the tv show JAG? Lasted like 10 seasons or something. Basically military courtroom procedural.

*Raises hand* I did! Well, to be fair, I sorta lost the show around season 9, so I never really saw the ending (lost track of the show when it changed time slots and I started a new job that had me working evenings, so it wasn't because I lost interest, I just never went back to rewatch the show after that).

Although I can see where some people were probably tired of the way that Harm and Mac's relationship was sort of dangled in front of the audience for ten years (or 9? Since she wasn't in season 1), I actually thought it was pretty well done. When the relationship became problematic, they would back off, so that made them seem more professional to me. Plus, they did actually talk about their relationship, so that helped.

I could see the two together (unlike S/J which I could never imagine at all), but the show wisely kept them apart until like the very last episode of the show. Even though the show kept them apart until the end, it did flirt with the idea of them together before that, but the writers made the characters mature enough to discuss it when the issue surfaced...something S/J never did on SG-1.

I agree. I could see some chemistry between them, unlike Sam and Jack. Which is at least partially because they were already friends, first and foremost. And I think they prove the point I tried to make earlier. Their relationship worked on the show because they were clearly the lead characters, so it made sense for the show to focus on their relationship and how they dealt with sometimes conflicting personal feelings and professional necessities. The show was already primarily about Harm and Mac, so it didn't feel like the romance changed the focus that much, and it certainly didn't affect the other characters (who were basically all supporting characters anyway, even when they had significant roles to play). Not every episode focused on Harm and Mac's personal relationship (or even their professional relationship), but when it came up, it felt like a natural extension of the show's main focus.

In retrospect, I imagine that I would find JAG a little too "shippy" for my current tastes if I went to go watch it now (they did fall victim to the cliche where everyone falls for the leading man... and the leading lady, which just made it awkward, because they both had too many love interests over the course of the series). But when compared to the way SG-1 dealt with Jack and Sam, it's worlds better. And I do think it comes back to the writers knowing what will work with their show and what won't. With a show like SG-1 where you have four leads (and by the way LoneStar, you make a good argument for why Teal'c must be considered a lead), the romance element just doesn't fit. It would be nice if a show could write romance between two lead characters in a way that didn't diminish the rest of the cast, but honestly, I think that's pretty rare. So writers need to ask themselves what the focus of the show is and if adding a romance element will detract from that focus. With SG-1 (IMO) the show is focused on adventure, exploration, and teamwork. So when you ask if the romance element will detract from that, the answer is a resounding YES!

I think that too often, TV writers just include romance elements because it's "expected" and they don't stop to consider how it will affect the overall feel of the show, or if it will fit in with the type of show that they set out to make.

[Frostfox]

Sorry, Khentkawes, I love playing devils advocate!

I think there is also discussion material in the different phases SG1 has gone through.

Phase one was seasons 1-3 – not much ‘shippy’ rubbish, some underlying attraction but both S and J act like mature adults/USAF officers over it. The team is the thing. The attraction doesn’t detract from the show, the fans of S/J are happy, the rest of us just ignore. I like fans to be happy, if S/J makes them happy, that’s great. If it makes them happy at the expense of other things, the team, the show dynamics, common sense, that’s not okay.

Phase two was 4-8 – ‘The ‘Ship’ is brought to the fore, with all the subtlety of a plank across the back of the head, you will see the attraction between these two characters, whether you want to or not. It then disappears in season 5, then pops back uglier than ever in 7 & 8. Many violins are smothered in syrup and camera lens in Vaseline to try and convince the fans that this is the greatest love story since Romeo and Juliet. And just as tragic, but with a small ‘T’. Both characters act like love struck teenagers at in appropriate moments which damages both of them. Fans are left in no doubt that the leader of the SGC’s flagship team has inappropriate feelings for his 2IC and that any woman not swooning at Jack’s feet is clearly defective in some way. The feeling of team comes and goes, the writers prove they can’t focus on a relationship and a team at the same time. TPTB still can’t please all the viewers, fans who don’t like S/J become more vocal, fans which do become sick of being led around by the nose.

Phase three was 8-10 – it’s gone again, except now the writers have backed themselves into a corner by removing any of Sam’s interesting plot lines so all she has for character development is batting her eyes at Sir and now RDA isn’t in the show, the writers confess they don’t know what to do with her character. Can I just say that this makes me see red! We won’t go into the issues of co-command either. They do get her to almost kiss a past love interest, what that says about the great love story is most unpleasant.

Phase four, the films? 1 and 2 went by with no resurgence of their grand love story. Sam is upset by

Spoiler:

Jack dying in Continuum

but there is no melodrama.
I have a feeling that three is their swan song and Jack can only keep dodging the Shippy Bullet of Doom for so long.
I don’t have to buy a made for DVD film so I’m quite sanguine about the last demise of Sam and Jack’s dignity. If I don’t like the reviews, I wont buy it.
But it would be a pity if the reviews of the third SG film talk about the ridiculous nature of some overblown romance between two USAF officers, rather than the film itself.

The writers can write what they wish, fans and casual viewers alike will take from the show what they enjoy. I enjoy the team, I just hope they look up through the Vaseline and syrup long enough to give us a decent team ending to the film and to the original SG1.

FF

[RingThing]

I agree with your assesment of the "ship"-division of the seasons, Frostfox - which is one of the reasons I rarely watch seasons 4-8. And seasons 9-10 Sam had lost all her interesting plot-lines, so she was of little interest IMHO. Too bad, I liked her a lot in 1-3

[Frostfox]

Agreed.

And Teal'c was most definitely a lead. Heck the whole show is essentially his story, his journey...from slavery to a false god to freedom for all his people, something he once thought never achievable. Outside of him, I'd say Daniel's story was of the next greatest importance. All my opinion of course.

Not to diminish Jack and Carter's part of the story, but I just don't think it was so much about them. They were major players and contributors to the story, but their actual personal journeys were not that expansive. They grew and changed as characters but not as much as the other two. And ship was of no help to that character growth....

Oh yes, fans do seem to dismiss Teal'c's story too often. Not helped that the Jaffa heavy stories are seldom fan favourites. I rather like them (I liked Bajoran religion/politics stories on DS9 too).
Fans often have a knee jerk reactions. You don't like (fill in a random relationship here)? You must hate both characters. You don't think (fill in a random actor) is the best actor in the franchise, you must be mad. Etc, etc. Just because I don't like a pairing, it doesn't mean I don't like the characters and it REALLY doesn't mean that I have any problem with the actors. Not agreeing with others doesn't make you a bad fan or less of a fan, it just means you like different things to them. Insisting that your way of watching the show is the only valid way makes you a bad fan.

Ship between those two had no place on the show. The show was not conceptualized like that...a team of explorers, exploring other planets...not each other. Ship was an after thought, and whoever thought it would be good to introduce to the show needs to be shot.

Don't get me wrong. I love love love good character stuff in tv shows (and even ships), but SG-1 was more about the story than the personal character relationships, imo. Shipping the main leads felt out of place on the show.

The style of the show really didn't lend itself to pairing off, did it. DS9 had a core cast of 9, so when two of them paired off, it didn't leave the others standing around looking like gooseberries. And as Khentkawes points out, too often S/J moments were manufactured, without any value in advancing the plot and at the expense of other characters.
Who here really liked the implication that Jack would have left any member of his team in Upgrades? That's not the Jack I know and love.

Did anyone else here watch the tv show JAG? Lasted like 10 seasons or something. Basically military courtroom procedural. The two leads were both in the military, though different branches...Harm was in the Navy and Mac was in the Marines. No real chain of command thing going on with them and they were close in rank even though Harm out ranked her until he was busted down a rank for something he did. They were just coworkers. I have no idea what military rules there would be about a relationship between the two, but the show didn't seriously go there until like the very last season or two. I'm a tick fuzzy on the details because it has been a while since I've watched the show.

They started off butting heads with each other (like Jack and Carter did) when Mac joined the show, but their friendship and respect for one another grew over the seasons. There was UST over the seasons, but I was never too keen on the two really getting together because I didn't want it messing up their working relationship as well as their good friendship, and hopefully the writers saw it that way. I could see the two together (unlike S/J which I could never imagine at all), but the show wisely kept them apart until like the very last episode of the show. Even though the show kept them apart until the end, it did flirt with the idea of them together before that, but the writers made the characters mature enough to discuss it when the issue surfaced...something S/J never did on SG-1.

Anyway as far as military officer relationships are concerned on a tv show, I thought JAG did a pretty good job of writing and balancing it between the two leads. While the show flirted with the idea of getting the two leads together, it did a decent job of keeping them apart for people who didn't want them together all the while keeping the hopes up of those that did want them together, imo.

I can't even begin to imagine what a mature conversation between them would sound like, this is not helped by the writing of Dumb!Jack getting out of hand in later seasons. Jack O'Neill's sense of humour was one of the best things about the character but too often of late, he is written as a buffoon

Spoiler:

in Continuum, ever word out of Jack's mouth (the Jack in our reality) is a joke or a one liner, we have lost the special forces, decorated officer completely. If movie 3 isn't to be a laughing stock, both the writers and RDA need to up their game. The Alternate Jack, was much more the O'Neill I remember.

.

The writers of SG-1 just had it all wrong as far as I was concerned. I don't think S/J ship ever overpowered the show...well except in Threads, but it did diminish the show and the characters when it was brought up in episodes. It was something that could never be on the show, but even that was so poorly handled. They couldn't even flirt with the idea in a decent manner. In the end I did end up feeling rather sorry for the people who shipped them only to be yanked around like they were in the end.

Putting aside my big problems with the chain of command thing, the big age difference of having Jack the same age as her father, and then the practically non existent chemistry between those characters when ship was forced upon them, the writers just basically sucked at writing S/J ship. But I maintain there was never any room for it to begin with on the show.


That basically says it all right there as far as how it interfered with the show and was out of place.

You can't make chemistry where there isn't any. I wasn't a fan of the Worf/Jadzia relationship (for really, really OT reasons) but clearly, the actors had chemistry together.
What puzzled me was that RDA and Amanda have chemistry. So why not the characters? Then it dawned on me, they have chemistry, they just don't have any romantic chemistry. There are a couple of really sweet behind the scenes shots, one of RDA kissing the side of Amanda's head but its all paternal and friendly rather than forced romantic. They adore each other (all of the original four have this vibe, there's a video of CJ, MS and AT on a sofa and MS kisses the tips of AT's fingers and it's adorable but it's not romantic) they love working together, RDA was very generous with helping the younger members of the cast progress their career and being a mentor, they respect each other. They love each other. But they aren't in love with each other. And, due to RDA's acting choices and poor writing, they never convinced me Jack and Sam were either. They can have them married on the Gate Ramp, but they are never going to convince me of a real, substantial relationship between them.

FF

[Frostfox]

I agree with your assesment of the "ship"-division of the seasons, Frostfox - which is one of the reasons I rarely watch seasons 4-8. And seasons 9-10 Sam had lost all her interesting plot-lines, so she was of little interest IMHO. Too bad, I liked her a lot in 1-3

I love Sam, she and Daniel are my favourites.
At times, I have to ignore some of the irritating, weak, ridiculous and downright stupid things the writers did to her. Did to all the characters. A lot of them weren't even about S/J, I'm thinking of giving information to the enemy in Gemini as an example. I can't see Sam being clueless enough to do that.
Others were about S/J, being able to gun down Daniel and all the others in the Gateroom but pausing before gunning down Jack (also in Gemini? It was Replicarter or Fifth torturing Sam at the time). That made me bilious; of course she can gun down her best friend with out a pause, of course she can't gun down her Twu Luv. It's written in the stars, don'tcha know! Why, every time she looks at him, beautiful music plays! It's magical and it's the meaning of love and the whole reason behind the show and just in case any viewer has missed that, let us have a shot lingering on Sam's huge, sky blue orbs as she gazes with adoration into the chocolate depths of her soul mates eyes. The shooting of some scenes really was about as blatant as that.

So I don't blame the characters, I blame the writers and directors for their sad lack of subtlety, nuance and occasionally good taste.

FF

[MerryK]

You can't make chemistry where there isn't any. I wasn't a fan of the Worf/Jadzia relationship (for really, really OT reasons) but clearly, the actors had chemistry together.
What puzzled me was that RDA and Amanda have chemistry. So why not the characters? Then it dawned on me, they have chemistry, they just don't have any romantic chemistry. There are a couple of really sweet behind the scenes shots, one of RDA kissing the side of Amanda's head but its all paternal and friendly rather than forced romantic. They adore each other (all of the original four have this vibe, there's a video of CJ, MS and AT on a sofa and MS kisses the tips of AT's fingers and it's adorable but it's not romantic) they love working together, RDA was very generous with helping the younger members of the cast progress their career and being a mentor, they respect each other. They love each other. But they aren't in love with each other. And, due to RDA's acting choices and poor writing, they never convinced me Jack and Sam were either. They can have them married on the Gate Ramp, but they are never going to convince me of a real, substantial relationship between them.

FF

I adore this post, FF. There's a team-vibe to the cast, and it's different from the team-vibe of the characters, but when it comes to Sam/Jack it's the same. I think AT objected to the S/J relationship for a while, and I wonder if she chose to act without romantic chemistry because of that. (And I love that video of the three of them on the couch; so cute.)

[jckfan55]

Just because I don't like a pairing, it doesn't mean I don't like the characters and it REALLY doesn't mean that I have any problem with the actors. Not agreeing with others doesn't make you a bad fan or less of a fan, it just means you like different things to them. Insisting that your way of watching the show is the only valid way makes you a bad fan....

The style of the show really didn't lend itself to pairing off, did it...

I can't even begin to imagine what a mature conversation between them would sound like, this is not helped by the writing of Dumb!Jack getting out of hand in later seasons. Jack O'Neill's sense of humour was one of the best things about the character but too often of late, he is written as a buffoon...

What puzzled me was that RDA and Amanda have chemistry. So why not the characters? Then it dawned on me, they have chemistry, they just don't have any romantic chemistry. There are a couple of really sweet behind the scenes shots, one of RDA kissing the side of Amanda's head but its all paternal and friendly rather than forced romantic. They adore each other (all of the original four have this vibe, there's a video of CJ, MS and AT on a sofa and MS kisses the tips of AT's fingers and it's adorable but it's not romantic) they love working together, RDA was very generous with helping the younger members of the cast progress their career and being a mentor, they respect each other. They love each other. But they aren't in love with each other. And, due to RDA's acting choices and poor writing, they never convinced me Jack and Sam were either. They can have them married on the Gate Ramp, but they are never going to convince me of a real, substantial relationship between them.

FF

Well said. (again). I've just excerpted a few of your points.

Totally agree about DumbJack. My interpretation of Jack as we originally got to know him is that he was quite intelligent (and come on, you'd have to be to plan and survive special ops missions) but he just wasn't an expert. Hence Sam's explaining to the audience through explaining to him. He also had little interest in archeology etc and he also enjoyed winding up Daniel. This is not dumb. So among other things, the "dumber" you make Jack the less sense it makes that Sam would be interested in him.

Totally agree on the *friend* chemistry the cast had going. That vibe was totally natural feeling. the "romance" was forced and uncomfortable--and I don't think I'm being completely influenced by my disappointment that TPTB went that route.

[Frostfox]

I adore this post, FF. There's a team-vibe to the cast, and it's different from the team-vibe of the characters, but when it comes to Sam/Jack it's the same. I think AT objected to the S/J relationship for a while, and I wonder if she chose to act without romantic chemistry because of that. (And I love that video of the three of them on the couch; so cute.)

Thank you.
I love your sig.
And I must say, I don't mention Cam and Vala much, but that's mostly because by the time they joined the show, S/J was dissipated by the lack of RDA for them to foist more inappropriate 'feeling feelings' on.

Well said. (again). I've just excerpted a few of your points.

Totally agree about DumbJack. My interpretation of Jack as we originally got to know him is that he was quite intelligent (and come on, you'd have to be to plan and survive special ops missions) but he just wasn't an expert. Hence Sam's explaining to the audience through explaining to him. He also had little interest in archeology etc and he also enjoyed winding up Daniel. This is not dumb. So among other things, the "dumber" you make Jack the less sense it makes that Sam would be interested in him.

Totally agree on the *friend* chemistry the cast had going. That vibe was totally natural feeling. the "romance" was forced and uncomfortable--and I don't think I'm being completely influenced by my disappointment that TPTB went that route.

Love Jack as Everyman (Everyman who can pilot a jet and kill you with a shoelace, but Everyman non the less ). Love Jack. Think RDA has charisma to burn.

Hate Dumb!Jack.

The friendship shines though. It's what makes me slash Jack and Daniel. What makes fans 'ship Daniel and Sam, Sam and Teal'c etc, etc. And it's, no doubt, what appeals to the fans of Jack and Sam. But when you force it into something it's not, you take the commaradarie, the friendship, the team and twist it just to have a romance between the main actor and female lead? It falls sadly flat.

FF