Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[quasar]

It's embarrassing from start to finish, particularly for Sam, .....
if you are going to do it, for heavens sake, make it believable, make it realistic, don't wreak your characters dignity in the process.

FF

You hit the nail right on the head ---the scene did destroy Sam's dignity. She looked like and acted like an embarassment, while the girlfriend looked great. I felt embarassed for Sam, she's got too much to offer to be depicted that way.

[Khentkawes]

True, but I believe that TPTB intended me to think that Jack had feeeeeelings for Sam.

Maybe so... but if that was their intention, it was hard to tell.

Or maybe some of the writers intended us to think that. I tend to think that the writers were not in agreement about the Sam/Jack stuff. Which could account for the inconsistent writing, but it just seems like they were working at odds for some reason. It was a one-step forward, two-steps back kind of storyline. Now, I don't presume to know what the writers think, but it seems to me that they were working at cross-purposes. Perhaps a slight disagreement about how to treat Sam and Jack's relationship? That's my theory anyway.

But twu wuv is so much more important! Weren't you getting the memos?

Memos? What memos? Somehow, my memos always get lost somewhere. Maybe they hide in the same place that Jack's memos hide.

Oh, no wait, I remember! I burned the memo box when I got sick of people telling me how to think. Now I use memos to make paper airplanes instead of actually reading them. It means I have to interpret TV shows on my own, but so far it seems to be working out quite well for me.

And so they tick off the fans of the relationship as much as those who don't like it. How very clever of them. It was painfully clear that they were never going to go for any realistic conclusion to the plot line while they could milk it for all the melodrama they could. The worst of both worlds. And people wonder why I never, ever want TPTB to muck around with the slash dynamic, I'll stick with the fanfic writers and artists, they will do a much better job, thank you very much.

Personally, I'd rather the bulk of romance stayed in fanfic, because I just don't want to see it on screen (and certainly not when it is normally cliched or melodramatic). That's pretty much true of most shows that I watch. Now, I like character development and interaction and exploring character relationships as much as anyone. But the problem is that focusing on romantic relationships usually does not result in exploring character interactions... it just results in the cliche count going through the roof. And it also irritates me that writer seem to think the only relationships worth exploring are romantic ones. Doesn't anyone have any non-romantic relationships in their lives?

You hit the nail right on the head ---the scene did destroy Sam's dignity. She looked like and acted like an embarassment, while the girlfriend looked great. I felt embarassed for Sam, she's got too much to offer to be depicted that way.

Greetings quasar, and welcome!

That scene was terribly awkward. And I kinda liked Keri, if for no other reason than that she seemed very self-assured and calm, unlike Sam who came across as very insecure and maybe just a touch too melodramatic in that scene (possibly because I was worried that she would make a scene, until she got the phone call... at that point, I was actually relieved that a painful and melodramatic confrontation had been averted). And Keri acted like such an... adult! Novel concept, but she did. When she thought there was a problem, she addressed it directly. Unfortunately, because of the way that TPTB portrayed Sam in relation to Jack, I could never imagine Sam acting that assertively to him.

And as FrostFox, pointed out... based purely on appearance, Keri looked great, whereas Sam looked like she was trying to be some little housewife, which is just not who she is.

[MerryK]

That scene was terribly awkward. And I kinda liked Keri, if for no other reason than that she seemed very self-assured and calm, unlike Sam who came across as very insecure and maybe just a touch too melodramatic in that scene (possibly because I was worried that she would make a scene, until she got the phone call... at that point, I was actually relieved that a painful and melodramatic confrontation had been averted). And Keri acted like such an... adult! Novel concept, but she did. When she thought there was a problem, she addressed it directly. Unfortunately, because of the way that TPTB portrayed Sam in relation to Jack, I could never imagine Sam acting that assertively to him.

That's exactly it. I refuse to accept that scene as canon, because I just don't see Sam as being that awkward, even with her commanding officer. Maybe she was emotionally distraught about her dad and even Pete, but that's the only possible excuse. And I liked Kerry for the same reasons you did. I even thought, despite her age, that she worked well with Jack, that she was good for him.

[Frostfox]

You hit the nail right on the head ---the scene did destroy Sam's dignity. She looked like and acted like an embarassment, while the girlfriend looked great. I felt embarassed for Sam, she's got too much to offer to be depicted that way.

I hated it, still do. This wasn't the Sam we had for the previous eight seasons, where did this stupid woman come from and what did she do with the real Sam Carter?

Maybe so... but if that was their intention, it was hard to tell.

Or maybe some of the writers intended us to think that. I tend to think that the writers were not in agreement about the Sam/Jack stuff. Which could account for the inconsistent writing, but it just seems like they were working at odds for some reason. It was a one-step forward, two-steps back kind of storyline. Now, I don't presume to know what the writers think, but it seems to me that they were working at cross-purposes. Perhaps a slight disagreement about how to treat Sam and Jack's relationship? That's my theory anyway.

True, that would make sense. And the show had no bible (aside, how on earth did they write without one?) so that would lead to writers pulling in different directions with their perceptions of the characters.

Memos? What memos? Somehow, my memos always get lost somewhere. Maybe they hide in the same place that Jack's memos hide.

Oh, no wait, I remember! I burned the memo box when I got sick of people telling me how to think. Now I use memos to make paper airplanes instead of actually reading them. It means I have to interpret TV shows on my own, but so far it seems to be working out quite well for me.

But the 'shipper's mantra was 'TPTB are always right' - there was a whole lobby group chanting that. Wonder what happened to them and if after over a decade, they still think that?
Me? I'll take from a show what I want, thank you. The day I become a mindless consumer is the day the TV goes out the door. The thought police can have a good kicking if they think they can impose their reading of the show on me.

Personally, I'd rather the bulk of romance stayed in fanfic, because I just don't want to see it on screen (and certainly not when it is normally cliched or melodramatic). That's pretty much true of most shows that I watch. Now, I like character development and interaction and exploring character relationships as much as anyone. But the problem is that focusing on romantic relationships usually does not result in exploring character interactions... it just results in the cliche count going through the roof. And it also irritates me that writer seem to think the only relationships worth exploring are romantic ones. Doesn't anyone have any non-romantic relationships in their lives?

Nope, every man and woman on the planet has to be matched up with their soul mate. It's the rules. No man or woman can work together without becoming romantically involved. No woman can be fulfilled without Her Man and no man can be a man without The Little Woman.
Any deviation from these rules means that you are a pinko, commie, heathen, lesbian/queer and have no grasp on reality and no reason to watch the show so please go away now.
If Sam and Jack do not get married on the gate ramp and have twin children nine months to the day after (called Grace and Jacob, obviously) then all 10 years of Stargate is worthless and we should burn our collections and send the ashes to The Bridge Studios forthwith.

Greetings quasar, and welcome!

That scene was terribly awkward. And I kinda liked Keri, if for no other reason than that she seemed very self-assured and calm, unlike Sam who came across as very insecure and maybe just a touch too melodramatic in that scene (possibly because I was worried that she would make a scene, until she got the phone call... at that point, I was actually relieved that a painful and melodramatic confrontation had been averted). And Keri acted like such an... adult! Novel concept, but she did. When she thought there was a problem, she addressed it directly. Unfortunately, because of the way that TPTB portrayed Sam in relation to Jack, I could never imagine Sam acting that assertively to him.

And as FrostFox, pointed out... based purely on appearance, Keri looked great, whereas Sam looked like she was trying to be some little housewife, which is just not who she is.

They really didn't have a clue, did they. And the characters didn't have a chance. And don't get me started on the deconstruction of Vala's character from where she started in Prometheus Unbound. Their two principal female characters, played by two outstanding actresses. The most interesting thing they can write for them are stilted and unrealistic romances which shed not a shred of insight into the characters and devalues them as people in favour of overblown romantic tosh.

That's exactly it. I refuse to accept that scene as canon, because I just don't see Sam as being that awkward, even with her commanding officer. Maybe she was emotionally distraught about her dad and even Pete, but that's the only possible excuse. And I liked Kerry for the same reasons you did. I even thought, despite her age, that she worked well with Jack, that she was good for him.

I do sometimes wonder if TPTB have ever met a real, adult woman. For heavens sake, they are grown men, some of the must be married, they really can't think normal women behave like that?
But, as throughout SG1, it's done to manipulate the characters into situations (in this case so Sam can get all cuddly with the boss while her father dies) rather than growing out of natural character progression and believable plotlines.

FF

[MerryK]

They really didn't have a clue, did they. And the characters didn't have a chance. And don't get me started on the deconstruction of Vala's character from where she started in Prometheus Unbound. Their two principal female characters, played by two outstanding actresses. The most interesting thing they can write for them are stilted and unrealistic romances which shed not a shred of insight into the characters and devalues them as people in favour of overblown romantic tosh.



I do sometimes wonder if TPTB have ever met a real, adult woman. For heavens sake, they are grown men, some of the must be married, they really can't think normal women behave like that?
But, as throughout SG1, it's done to manipulate the characters into situations (in this case so Sam can get all cuddly with the boss while her father dies) rather than growing out of natural character progression and believable plotlines.

FF

I don't agree with you fully there. I think we got quite a lot of non-romantic character development for the female characters, although part of the impact is from the skill of the actresses (who are, obviously, real adult women). It was worse for Sam, but she still had her own character apart from the rare episodes that were overly "shippy". Her issues with identity as relating to Fifth and Replicarter, for instance, were quite nice character development.

But also, since I've seen plenty of women who are adults in name, but still behave like that—and many more who don't disagree with that characterization in fiction—TPTB are not pulling it completely out of nowhere.

[RingThing]

I don't agree with you fully there. I think we got quite a lot of non-romantic character development for the female characters, although part of the impact is from the skill of the actresses (who are, obviously, real adult women). It was worse for Sam, but she still had her own character apart from the rare episodes that were overly "shippy". Her issues with identity as relating to Fifth and Replicarter, for instance, were quite nice character development.

But also, since I've seen plenty of women who are adults in name, but still behave like that—and many more who don't disagree with that characterization in fiction—TPTB are not pulling it completely out of nowhere.

This is scaringly true - reading that kind of S/J fic turns me even more off the pairing...but it seems to be very common.
Sam mostly started behaving like that in some episodes in the later seasons, especially season 8 is bad...I think her character suffered badly here, but earlier she had many episodes which showed her as a great character. AT plays her character well whenever she gets a chance and the episode is not a total shippy-hell.

[jckfan55]

I hated it, still do. This wasn't the Sam we had for the previous eight seasons, where did this stupid woman come from and what did she do with the real Sam Carter?

Call McKenzie! Sam's developed a split personality. Peril of Gate travel?

I do sometimes wonder if TPTB have ever met a real, adult woman. For heavens sake, they are grown men, some of the must be married, they really can't think normal women behave like that?
But, as throughout SG1, it's done to manipulate the characters into situations (in this case so Sam can get all cuddly with the boss while her father dies) rather than growing out of natural character progression and believable plotlines.

FF

You do have to wonder sometimes. I remember an interview with Patricia ? who played the wife on Home Improvement saying she'd talk to the writers about some stuff saying "women don't talk/act like that." Maybe the writers should have checked with their wives. Or had some women writers too.

AT plays her character well whenever she gets a chance and the episode is not a total shippy-hell.

I have to agree with that. She always does her best. Whether it was the writers, director or AT's acting choices--that Jack, Keri, Sam scene was cringeworthy.

[Frostfox]

I don't agree with you fully there. I think we got quite a lot of non-romantic character development for the female characters, although part of the impact is from the skill of the actresses (who are, obviously, real adult women). It was worse for Sam, but she still had her own character apart from the rare episodes that were overly "shippy". Her issues with identity as relating to Fifth and Replicarter, for instance, were quite nice character development.

I just felt that they kept cutting off the most interesting Sam storylines, Jolinar, Jacob, the Tok'ra. Not all of them, but enough to back the character into a corner which they didn't know how to write her out of (hence the 'not knowing what to do with the character' line).
Even Fifth (brilliant character) had to be used to show Sam in a white picket fence happy-ever-after. Head desk, head desk, head desk.

But also, since I've seen plenty of women who are adults in name, but still behave like that—and many more who don't disagree with that characterization in fiction—TPTB are not pulling it completely out of nowhere.

I have a severe allergy to that kind of woman in real life, cannot abide stupid cows who can't act like an adult around men, it's a real hot topic with me. I dislike them in fiction/media too and hate to see that sort of behaviour reinforced as in any way acceptable.
Sorry, it's a bit of a hot topic with me.

FF

[DSG1]

I shudder to think what they'll do to these characters in the third movie? I liked Carter because she was a strong female lead but, by season eight she became 'girlie Carter' and that turned me right off. I never understood the Jack/Sam ship till I came here and started reading all the gushing over it. I never watched Stargate for that. I watched it because it was sci-fi. Not for the Sam/Jack hour.

[SamShipper]

Call McKenzie! Sam's developed a split personality. Peril of Gate travel?

Maybe Jolinar's personality wins from time to time? Sam actually DO have two personalities (see the episode "Need" - it's not Sam there talking about the sarcophagus) - we just don't see the leftover-Jolinar part take over anymore.

You do have to wonder sometimes. I remember an interview with Patricia ? who played the wife on Home Improvement saying she'd talk to the writers about some stuff saying "women don't talk/act like that." Maybe the writers should have checked with their wives. Or had some women writers too.


I have to agree with that. She always does her best. Whether it was the writers, director or AT's acting choices--that Jack, Keri, Sam scene was cringeworthy.

That it was *shudder*

I just felt that they kept cutting off the most interesting Sam storylines, Jolinar, Jacob, the Tok'ra. Not all of them, but enough to back the character into a corner which they didn't know how to write her out of (hence the 'not knowing what to do with the character' line).
Even Fifth (brilliant character) had to be used to show Sam in a white picket fence happy-ever-after. Head desk, head desk, head desk.

I agree - they killed off (literally!) all Sam's interesting storylines Too bad, and one of the reasons I prefer fanfic. Unfortunately they rarely seem to write about these things either. Bit of a problem for me - I ship Sam/Jack, but I can't stand most of the fic about them (or the way TPTB writes them). I actually prefer them AU. So I mostly stick to reading Sam/others fic, little as there is of that.

I shudder to think what they'll do to these characters in the third movie? I liked Carter because she was a strong female lead but, by season eight she became 'girlie Carter' and that turned me right off. I never understood the Jack/Sam ship till I came here and started reading all the gushing over it. I never watched Stargate for that. I watched it because it was sci-fi. Not for the Sam/Jack hour.

I am kinda fearful of the next movie as well. I am not going to watch it until I have heard what people have to say about it.

[Khentkawes]

Nope, every man and woman on the planet has to be matched up with their soul mate. It's the rules. No man or woman can work together without becoming romantically involved. No woman can be fulfilled without Her Man and no man can be a man without The Little Woman.

Wow, I'm really not getting my memos, then. I guess I'm not a real person, by that definition. Hey wait, how does the "no man or woman can work together without becoming romantically involved" rule work if all the guys I work with are married? 'Cause that's just wrong. *shudders*

If Sam and Jack do not get married on the gate ramp and have twin children nine months to the day after (called Grace and Jacob, obviously) then all 10 years of Stargate is worthless and we should burn our collections and send the ashes to The Bridge Studios forthwith.

This is where shipping in general gets to me... the kids! I swear that 80% of all ship fanfic out there ends with a happy little family and lots of kids. Now, I do occasionally want to read some shipy fanfic (not S/J, obviously, but there are other pairings that I find enjoyable if written well), and I get tired of all the kid cliches (and yes, kids must always be named after someone from the show. It's apparently an unwritten rule. Or maybe it's written in some shippers handbook somewhere. I wouldn't know).

They really didn't have a clue, did they. And the characters didn't have a chance. And don't get me started on the deconstruction of Vala's character from where she started in Prometheus Unbound. Their two principal female characters, played by two outstanding actresses. The most interesting thing they can write for them are stilted and unrealistic romances which shed not a shred of insight into the characters and devalues them as people in favour of overblown romantic tosh.

I don't totally agree with you here, either. Partially because I have a very different take on Vala, although that's probably a topic for another thread.
When they managed to avoid the romance with Sam, they did much better with characterization. With Vala... well, I only see about two romantic scenes (if you mean with Daniel... there's more with Tomin), and those didn't bother me since they were all "potential" and "could be" instead of continuously harping on the unexpressed feelings. And there weren't these repetitious scenes of characters trying to get up the nerve to discuss "feelings" which they apparently have never verbalized, and can't name more precisely than "feelings." That's why the romance stuff really got silly. It was too vague to be a real romance, and too in-your-face to ignore. I could ignore anything with Vala because it was either part of the plot (Tomin) or subtle enough that I didn't mind.

So, I think TPTB are capable of writing female characters (though it's clearly harder for them), they should just avoid emphasizing romance, because then they write their characters into a corner where they have no direction to develop as people. IMO, of course.

I don't agree with you fully there. I think we got quite a lot of non-romantic character development for the female characters, although part of the impact is from the skill of the actresses (who are, obviously, real adult women). It was worse for Sam, but she still had her own character apart from the rare episodes that were overly "shippy". Her issues with identity as relating to Fifth and Replicarter, for instance, were quite nice character development.

But also, since I've seen plenty of women who are adults in name, but still behave like that—and many more who don't disagree with that characterization in fiction—TPTB are not pulling it completely out of nowhere.

ITA on both points. I have had to reevaluate my view of Sam, because when I started watching in season 7, I really disliked her. But that was primarily because I started watching during a shipy hay-day. Once I was able to separate Sam from the ship (which, honestly, took a long while), I realized that she does have some interesting development on occasion. It's just that TPTB relied on the ship in order to provide "character development" far too often.

Maybe Jolinar's personality wins from time to time? Sam actually DO have two personalities (see the episode "Need" - it's not Sam there talking about the sarcophagus) - we just don't see the leftover-Jolinar part take over anymore.

That would make some amount of sense. For a while, I (jokingly) toyed with the idea that Sam was infected by an injured Hathor at the beginning of season 3 (somehow she didn't die, it was all a trick for the sake of this theory ), and that Hathor could only take control on rare occasions. According to this theory, Hathor wasn't fully blended until season 4 (hence the sudden "feelings" scene in D&C... which Jack went along with because Hathor was clearly drugging various guys at this point). It would explain the emphasis on Sam's love life, because we know that Hathor used nishta to make guys become, uh, infatuated with her. And it would explain why Sam seems to have dual personalities (Hathor wasn't very good at mimicking Sam's behavior when she succeeded in taking control).

And before anyone gets bent out of shape, I'll emphasize again that I'm joking here. But, the joke is based on how strangely Sam seems to act at times, and on how she seems to have so many men interested in her.

[Frostfox]

I shudder to think what they'll do to these characters in the third movie? I liked Carter because she was a strong female lead but, by season eight she became 'girlie Carter' and that turned me right off. I never understood the Jack/Sam ship till I came here and started reading all the gushing over it. I never watched Stargate for that. I watched it because it was sci-fi. Not for the Sam/Jack hour.

Don't let other peoples reading of SG1 spoil what you enjoy about it. Every single viewer sees the show slightly differently, no right or wrong. Enjoy what you like, I certainly do!

Maybe Jolinar's personality wins from time to time? Sam actually DO have two personalities (see the episode "Need" - it's not Sam there talking about the sarcophagus) - we just don't see the leftover-Jolinar part take over anymore.

Laughs, that's one explanation and is at least a SFnal explanation!

I agree - they killed off (literally!) all Sam's interesting storylines Too bad, and one of the reasons I prefer fanfic. Unfortunately they rarely seem to write about these things either. Bit of a problem for me - I ship Sam/Jack, but I can't stand most of the fic about them (or the way TPTB writes them). I actually prefer them AU. So I mostly stick to reading Sam/others fic, little as there is of that.

The good thing about fanfic is that there is lots of it (of varying quality, obviously). I find Livejournal to be a really good place to find good fic. There is an LJ community called SG1 Debrief which post a weekly list of lots of the fanfic online each week, I highly recommend it.

I am kinda fearful of the next movie as well. I am not going to watch it until I have heard what people have to say about it.

It's sad that you, as someone who likes the pairing, are worried about what TPTB will come up with for the third film. We will probably be nervous for different reasons, but we can both rely on friends to give us a good idea of whether the film will be worth our while.

FF

[DSG1]

Maybe Jolinar's personality wins from time to time? Sam actually DO have two personalities (see the episode "Need" - it's not Sam there talking about the sarcophagus) - we just don't see the leftover-Jolinar part take over anymore.



That it was *shudder*



I agree - they killed off (literally!) all Sam's interesting storylines Too bad, and one of the reasons I prefer fanfic. Unfortunately they rarely seem to write about these things either. Bit of a problem for me - I ship Sam/Jack, but I can't stand most of the fic about them (or the way TPTB writes them). I actually prefer them AU. So I mostly stick to reading Sam/others fic, little as there is of that.



I am kinda fearful of the next movie as well. I am not going to watch it until I have heard what people have to say about it.

I'm kinda gonna do the samething. I'll mostly will buy the DVD when it comes out as I did with the other two movies but I'll wait before I do tho.

In my fanfic there is no Jack/Sam lol. I have my own ideas about that. I like the team as a whole so hopefully they wont waste Jack in the 3rd movie by making it just him and Sam.

[Frostfox]

I'm kinda gonna do the samething. I'll mostly will buy the DVD when it comes out as I did with the other two movies. I just hope they wont turn it over to Sam/Jack. Thats my fear.

I haven't bought Continuum yet, I'll get it when it becomes cheap enough, or second hand off ebay, I suppose for me, SG1 is pretty much over, there are other things to spend my money on.

FF

[Callista]

OK, well I plan on buying and watching it regardless. (These movies make perfect birthday or Christmas or Mother's Day presents for my mother and then she usually wants me to watch with her.)

I will report back when the time comes!!