Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Callista]

Well said. re: the highlighted part--how often have we heard that teamy friendship moments were cut b/c they didn't advance the story. But J/S uncomfortable looks did?

Great point!

It makes me think in particular of Full Circle where any feeling between Daniel and Sam greeting each other is sorely missing even though they apparently filmed it (and I think it was very, very important given that Sam grieved Daniel so much and she's the only one he didn't visit earlier) but we still got that little bit with Skaara asking Jack to be his best man and that Sam would come along as his date. Did we need to have Skaara getting married to care more when he died? I don't think so. And even though they deny that it would be a real date, why else include that part if not to plant the idea of it?

[slurredspeech]

It makes me think in particular of Full Circle where any feeling between Daniel and Sam greeting each other is sorely missing even though they apparently filmed it (and I think it was very, very important given that Sam grieved Daniel so much and she's the only one he didn't visit earlier) but we still got that little bit with Skaara asking Jack to be his best man and that Sam would come along as his date. Did we need to have Skaara getting married to care more when he died? I don't think so. And even though they deny that it would be a real date, why else include that part if not to plant the idea of it?

I approve of this comment SO HARD. Especially the bolded part. That was a huge - though not exclusive - reason I thought FC wasn't all that. I loved S/D interaction and with one episode they managed to wreck it. Woe, letdown. D: How so lame, TPTB?

[Aragon101]

I approve of this comment SO HARD. Especially the bolded part. That was a huge - though not exclusive - reason I thought FC wasn't all that. I loved S/D interaction and with one episode they managed to wreck it. Woe, letdown. D: How so lame, TPTB?

*Evil laughter*

[Callista]

I approve of this comment SO HARD. Especially the bolded part. That was a huge - though not exclusive - reason I thought FC wasn't all that. I loved S/D interaction and with one episode they managed to wreck it. Woe, letdown. D: How so lame, TPTB?

While I think the team dynamic (as in all four of them together) in general was hurt, I think the Sam and Daniel relationship suffered the most from Sam/Jack (and then much later from Daniel/Vala). Jack and Teal'c still seemed fine after season 3 although I don't know that their relationship progressed much, either. Jack and Daniel had a lot of disagreements after season 3, but at least they still had interactions with each other. Daniel and Teal'c and Sam and Teal'c seemed OK even though we might not have seen as much of them (although maybe there's actually more Daniel and Teal'c?....There seems to be after Daniel comes back, at least). But after season 3, Daniel and Sam have very little screen time together, or at least that's how I remember it. The time they did have together didn't have the same feel, either.

I don't know if TPTB thought that having Daniel and Sam so comfortable with each other would make people think they were romantically attracted to each other and thus threaten the S/J ship or what, but I don't recall seeing them working side by side and bouncing ideas off each other in seasons four and five anywhere near as much as in seasons one and two. I have no idea if the two things have anything to do with each other, but if it was because of S/J that we saw that change in Sam and Daniel's relationship, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes TPTB ever made!

[Frostfox]

Which just goes to prove that the writers can write friendship well. And everyone, whatever their viewing persuasion, likes the team and the friendships therein. So, why didn't they concentrate on this popular and successful aspect of the show's personal dynamics, instead of shoe-horning in an unpalatable and divisive and unsuccessful love thang between Jack and Sam. Head meet desk.

Of course they can, we wouldn't all be such big Team fans if TPTB hadn't written the Team stuff in the first place!
I just don't get their reasoning. Why did they feel that they had to pump up the relationship between Sam and Jack, particularly when it became clear that it was such hard work, so unnatural and stilted.

Be afraid: I've mastered the multi-quote. Heh.

Run away! Run away!

It's one of those things that make you want to grab one of TPTB and SHAKE THE BEJESUS OUT OF THEM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/...b5e99e263e.jpg

Laughs, oh yeah!

Great point!

It makes me think in particular of Full Circle where any feeling between Daniel and Sam greeting each other is sorely missing even though they apparently filmed it (and I think it was very, very important given that Sam grieved Daniel so much and she's the only one he didn't visit earlier) but we still got that little bit with Skaara asking Jack to be his best man and that Sam would come along as his date. Did we need to have Skaara getting married to care more when he died? I don't think so. And even though they deny that it would be a real date, why else include that part if not to plant the idea of it?

It's very sad. Sam and Daniel had that magic connection, the Wonder Twins, and that natural chemistry. But when TPTB wanted only to push their pet relationship, Sam in particular became isolated from everyone except Jack, which led to the ridiculous "We don't know what to do with your character" once RDA/Jack had left the show. For heavens sake, you have this really talented actress, why waste her on a silly attempt at a romance? Why cut out all her other plotlines (Jolinar, Jacob for examples) only leaving her with her inappropriate relationship with the boss, Sam and Amanda (and the fans) deserved much more.

I approve of this comment SO HARD. Especially the bolded part. That was a huge - though not exclusive - reason I thought FC wasn't all that. I loved S/D interaction and with one episode they managed to wreck it. Woe, letdown. D: How so lame, TPTB?

LC is okay, I don't rate it as high as some fans. I found the ascending all the Abydonians to be particularly problematic, it didn't fit with the canon they had established in earlier seasons for Ascension. But, they had admitted that they didn't have a series bible, which leads to such foolish mistakes.

While I think the team dynamic (as in all four of them together) in general was hurt, I think the Sam and Daniel relationship suffered the most from Sam/Jack (and then much later from Daniel/Vala). Jack and Teal'c still seemed fine after season 3 although I don't know that their relationship progressed much, either. Jack and Daniel had a lot of disagreements after season 3, but at least they still had interactions with each other. Daniel and Teal'c and Sam and Teal'c seemed OK even though we might not have seen as much of them (although maybe there's actually more Daniel and Teal'c?....There seems to be after Daniel comes back, at least). But after season 3, Daniel and Sam have very little screen time together, or at least that's how I remember it. The time they did have together didn't have the same feel, either.

I don't know if TPTB thought that having Daniel and Sam so comfortable with each other would make people think they were romantically attracted to each other and thus threaten the S/J ship or what, but I don't recall seeing them working side by side and bouncing ideas off each other in seasons four and five anywhere near as much as in seasons one and two. I have no idea if the two things have anything to do with each other, but if it was because of S/J that we saw that change in Sam and Daniel's relationship, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes TPTB ever made!

Classic case of them writing Sam and Jack to exclusion of all other characters, which is just so unrealistic and unhealthy and abnormal. Amanda has great chemistry with everyone, she and Michael were great together. Sam and Daniel was a unique and interesting relationship but it had to be pushed aside as it was not as important, in the eyes of TPTB, as Sam and Sir, which I find very sad and a great waste.

FF

[slurredspeech]

*Evil laughter*

This



but also this

While I think the team dynamic (as in all four of them together) in general was hurt, I think the Sam and Daniel relationship suffered the most from Sam/Jack (and then much later from Daniel/Vala). Jack and Teal'c still seemed fine after season 3 although I don't know that their relationship progressed much, either. Jack and Daniel had a lot of disagreements after season 3, but at least they still had interactions with each other. Daniel and Teal'c and Sam and Teal'c seemed OK even though we might not have seen as much of them (although maybe there's actually more Daniel and Teal'c?....There seems to be after Daniel comes back, at least). But after season 3, Daniel and Sam have very little screen time together, or at least that's how I remember it. The time they did have together didn't have the same feel, either.

I don't know if TPTB thought that having Daniel and Sam so comfortable with each other would make people think they were romantically attracted to each other and thus threaten the S/J ship or what, but I don't recall seeing them working side by side and bouncing ideas off each other in seasons four and five anywhere near as much as in seasons one and two. I have no idea if the two things have anything to do with each other, but if it was because of S/J that we saw that change in Sam and Daniel's relationship, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes TPTB ever made!

I too am unsure if their relationship being sidelined had anything to do with S/J. Let's be honest here -- the writers have made some character and/or relationship missteps along the way that were absolutely in no way tied to S/J (or, you know, I'm sure one could tie them in six degrees or less - what with them being on the show - but then one could also by that logic blame Kevin Bacon, which would be unfair even if hilarious).

For some reason, it seems they seized finding their relationship significant or interesting - a stance I could not disagree more on. Them two both being scientists in their own right, academia if you will, people who are so in love with discovery and ingenuity and share this passion for the new and unknown and, on a shallower note, the shiny! There is so much there to show! Such great tantalizing glimpses into their dynamic (short for time, as it's not Sam and Daniel show, but great nontheless; plus so much can be shown with nothing more than a short exchange -- if that exchange is done right, of course).

Oh, what grand conversations the two of them must have had.

So, certanly, I find that one of the balls TPTB have dropped right on their foots. I could have done without both some of the Jack-Daniel pointless bickering for the sake of bickering and some of the weak Sam and Jack moments that were more gratuitous than they were keeping the fires a-burning.

tl;dr I'd green you if I could.

[Callista]

I think I read somewhere that Kevin Bacon was pro soldier 'ship and anti friendship between genuises back in the first couple of years of this century, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were him to blame!!!! I mean, really! Have you seen Footloose!?!?!? (KB was in Footloose with John Lithgow who was in Memphis Belle with Ben Browder who was in SG-1 with everyone!!! Hah! I don't need no six degrees!!!)

[jdjunkie]

It's not that difficult, write convincing friendship between them and the fans of J/S would see it as 'shippy' anyway! And the rest of us wouldn't be offended. What's too lose?

This. Some shippers will see Jack and Sam sitting together at briefings or simply being in the same room as shippy. Which is fine. Whatever floats your fandom boat. So what's so difficult about writing those scenes simply as convincing friendship, thus allowing all of us take something we like from the show? It ain't rocket science.

While I think the team dynamic (as in all four of them together) in general was hurt, I think the Sam and Daniel relationship suffered the most from Sam/Jack (and then much later from Daniel/Vala). Jack and Teal'c still seemed fine after season 3 although I don't know that their relationship progressed much, either. Jack and Daniel had a lot of disagreements after season 3, but at least they still had interactions with each other. Daniel and Teal'c and Sam and Teal'c seemed OK even though we might not have seen as much of them (although maybe there's actually more Daniel and Teal'c?....There seems to be after Daniel comes back, at least). But after season 3, Daniel and Sam have very little screen time together, or at least that's how I remember it. The time they did have together didn't have the same feel, either.

I don't know if TPTB thought that having Daniel and Sam so comfortable with each other would make people think they were romantically attracted to each other and thus threaten the S/J ship or what, but I don't recall seeing them working side by side and bouncing ideas off each other in seasons four and five anywhere near as much as in seasons one and two. I have no idea if the two things have anything to do with each other, but if it was because of S/J that we saw that change in Sam and Daniel's relationship, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes TPTB ever made!

So much word for this.

Early Sam and Daniel was wonderful, from their excited discussions in CotG in the cartouche room, to teasing about Graham Simmonds' crush in Message in a Bottle and beyond. It was relaxed and fun and comfortable. Until it all came to a crashing halt somewhere in season 4. And what came to the fore on season 4? Yes. I think the two are definitely connected. It was the beginning of the slow isolation of Sam from the rest of the team as her role as The Girl pushed her further and further towards a supposed relationship with Jack, until it reached the point where, with Jack gone, they didn't know what to do with her. Frankly, I wasn't the least bit suprrised that it came to that. I'm amazed that anyone was surprised that they didn't have a clue what to do with Sam. They'd painted her into a ship-driven corner. That is absolutely unforgivable.

The destruction of the team dynamic and the waste of Sam is something I will never forgive the writers for.

The show paid too high a price for the ship, and Sam's character paid the highest price of all.

[Frostfox]

This

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...y85/if7dbl.gif

but also this

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...y85/xp8wfp.gif

I too am unsure if their relationship being sidelined had anything to do with S/J. Let's be honest here -- the writers have made some character and/or relationship missteps along the way that were absolutely in no way tied to S/J (or, you know, I'm sure one could tie them in six degrees or less - what with them being on the show - but then one could also by that logic blame Kevin Bacon, which would be unfair even if hilarious).

For some reason, it seems they seized finding their relationship significant or interesting - a stance I could not disagree more on. Them two both being scientists in their own right, academia if you will, people who are so in love with discovery and ingenuity and share this passion for the new and unknown and, on a shallower note, the shiny! There is so much there to show! Such great tantalizing glimpses into their dynamic (short for time, as it's not Sam and Daniel show, but great nontheless; plus so much can be shown with nothing more than a short exchange -- if that exchange is done right, of course).

Oh, what grand conversations the two of them must have had.

So, certanly, I find that one of the balls TPTB have dropped right on their foots. I could have done without both some of the Jack-Daniel pointless bickering for the sake of bickering and some of the weak Sam and Jack moments that were more gratuitous than they were keeping the fires a-burning.

tl;dr I'd green you if I could.

Not sure I understand the bolded. Do you mean 'ceased'?

I agree that balls were dropped that had nothing to do with the Sam and Jack plot line, but this being the thread for discussing why Sam/Jack was a bad idea, I won't be discussing them here.

I did notice a change in focus from the first three seasons to the fourth and onward, which coincided with changes in TPTB and part of that change seemed to be a ramping up of the Sam/Jack dynamic and the paring back of various other relationships on the show. I don't feel the two are unconnected.

This. Some shippers will see Jack and Sam sitting together at briefings or simply being in the same room as shippy. Which is fine. Whatever floats your fandom boat. So what's so difficult about writing those scenes simply as convincing friendship, thus allowing all of us take something we like from the show? It ain't rocket science.

Exactly, they are as entitled to their reading of SG1 as we are to ours. Fans are clever, resourceful and very fluent in the language of TV. Give them suitable prompts and they are quite capable of filling in the blanks. Don't underestimate them, be subtle and clever in your writing and it pays back many fold.
Being crass and heavy handed, as they increasingly were with Sam and Jack, only backfires and alienates parts of the fanbase.

So much word for this.

Early Sam and Daniel was wonderful, from their excited discussions in CotG in the cartouche room, to teasing about Graham Simmonds' crush in Message in a Bottle and beyond. It was relaxed and fun and comfortable. Until it all came to a crashing halt somewhere in season 4. And what came to the fore on season 4? Yes. I think the two are definitely connected. It was the beginning of the slow isolation of Sam from the rest of the team as her role as The Girl pushed her further and further towards a supposed relationship with Jack, until it reached the point where, with Jack gone, they didn't know what to do with her. Frankly, I wasn't the least bit surprised that it came to that. I'm amazed that anyone was surprised that they didn't have a clue what to do with Sam. They'd painted her into a ship-driven corner. That is absolutely unforgivable.

The destruction of the team dynamic and the waste of Sam is something I will never forgive the writers for.

The show paid too high a price for the ship, and Sam's character paid the highest price of all.

And she still shines, despite all the crud they laid down on the character. The Wonder Twins was a unique and beautiful relationship, it didn't need histrionic writing, manipulative music or special treatment to be special. Ditto the Jack and Daniel dynamic. But it was all thrown out of the window in favour of the wonder that was Sam loves Sir. What a waste of actors talents and the precious screentime for character moments.

FF (off downstairs for a programme item I'm on at noon!)

[jdjunkie]

And she still shines, despite all the crud they laid down on the character. The Wonder Twins was a unique and beautiful relationship, it didn't need histrionic writing, manipulative music or special treatment to be special. Ditto the Jack and Daniel dynamic. But it was all thrown out of the window in favour of the wonder that was Sam loves Sir. What a waste of actors talents and the precious screentime for character moments.

Well, I'm not the biggest Carter fan. Of The Big Four (I'm really an original team fan at heart, although my Cam love is great and Vala love is ... limited) I found her to be the least engaging and interesting. Sometimes she actively irritated me. But I did enjoy her very much in the last two seasons. In fact, in Unending *shudder* she was pretty much my favourite character.

The fact that I enjoyed her most in the shipless final seasons is not coincidental. As kick-ass scientist and SG team member and loyal friend I liked her well enough.

I thought the Sam and Daniel dynamic was great and really lost out to Jack/Sam. So did Jack and Daniel, which, to me, ripped the heart and soul out of the series.

And on topic: still not liking Jack/Sam.

[Frostfox]

Well, I'm not the biggest Carter fan. Of The Big Four (I'm really an original team fan at heart, although my Cam love is great and Vala love is ... limited) I found her to be the least engaging and interesting. Sometimes she actively irritated me. But I did enjoy her very much in the last two seasons. In fact, in Unending *shudder* she was pretty much my favourite character.

The fact that I enjoyed her most in the shipless final seasons is not coincidental. As kick-ass scientist and SG team member and loyal friend I liked her well enough.

I thought the Sam and Daniel dynamic was great and really lost out to Jack/Sam. So did Jack and Daniel, which, to me, ripped the heart and soul out of the series.

And on topic: still not liking Jack/Sam.

I really liked Sam. Not as much as I loved Kira or Susan Ivanova (or for that matter Ororo). But I liked the soldier woman with her strength and weaknesses and I really like Amanda's acting.
I started out being a Jack and Daniel fan, but, over the years, my patience for Dumb!Jack waned.
Now I would say it is Daniel/Sam/Teal'c/Jack. I am less interested in Cam and Vala, indeed, preferred Jonas to either of them. But there is no right or wrong in who we prefer, just a myriad of opinions.

And, no, still not king, sorry, meant still not liking Jack/Sam. Let's not go there, 'tis a silly place.

FF who may have been helping the con drink the real ale barrels dry and has come up to room for a fortifying cup of afternoon tea.

[jdjunkie]

So, just throwing this out there ... if they do Go There in the third movie (show that Jack and Sam are together, oh, did I really just write that?! ) how do you think they'll do it? And is there any way to make it remotely palatable to those of us who dislike it?

[Aragon101]

So, just throwing this out there ... if they do Go There in the third movie (show that Jack and Sam are together, oh, did I really just write that?! ) how do you think they'll do it? And is there any way to make it remotely palatable to those of us who dislike it?

Given TPTB's love of not so subtle subtlety, i'm betting it'll either be tiny hints throughout the movie like each of them having matching rings, or maybe both claiming to have "flown in", just that god awful dreck that is "supposed" to be subtle, but stands out like a cow on a freeway

And that's not counting the cliche 'last scene in the movie" confirmarion with Sam standing in the conference room of the Hammond looking down at earth, and Jack walking up and taking her hand showing off thier rings or something.

The problem with these scenes IMO is that they confirm, but they dont' really fit. we've gotten a ton of tiny hints, but nothing concrete. To sudden see them "married" is another of the standard HUGE steps forward TPTB have done with their relationship without showing us any build up between them. We're supposed to believe that they're having this relationship "off-screen" but because there's never been any confirmation "on-screen" it just comes out feeling pathetic.

Proof that TPTB do not know WTF they're doing with Sam/Jac? the infamous Trio scene. He ALMOST says "Carter admits she's having an af(Affair) Uhh in a relationship with O'neill.

and even more, the actual lines are so vague that it's ridiculous.

Keller: Anyone back home?
Sam: Uhhmm..
Keller Ah! Thought so. Spill it.
Sam: Well it's complicated.
Keller: Show me a relationship that isn't.
Sam: Yeah i know... He's in Washington, i'm here.
Keller: Long distance relationship huh?
Sam: Yeah... He's gonna retire soon so who knows?
Keller: Really? retire? Older man huh?
Sam: He's... not that much older.

Look at what Sam says, it's "complicated", they're 3 million light years apart so they're not exactly "together". He's goig to "retire soon" which implies that she's waiting for that... but why? What huge difference will O'Neill retiring make to thier relationship? Is he suddenly going to come to Atlantis to be with her? Is she going to give up the SGC to be with him in his cabin? I don't see her getting any joy out of this relationship, and even more, i don't even think they have what couldbe deemed a real two way relationship like TPTB want at this time. And this is Atlantis Season 4, only about a year before the third movie is supposed to be.

[discodiva]

So, just throwing this out there ... if they do Go There in the third movie (show that Jack and Sam are together, oh, did I really just write that?! ) how do you think they'll do it?

With about as much finesse and style as a brick...

And is there any way to make it remotely palatable to those of us who dislike it?

Nope....


Deeds xx

[Killdeer]

Re the movie, should it ever get made -

Spoiler:

It's been described as Jack-centric and Sam-heavy. But not a word about those other two characters, other than that they'll be in it (which is more than I can say for Cam and Vala, and I like Cam and Vala). I've just gotten this feeling, and I could be very wrong, that it's going to be mostly focused on Jack and Sam with Daniel and Teal'c playing backup. How much of that focus on those two will have to do with their relationship I couldn't say, but still. I was never into SG-1 for the Jack & Sam show. YMMV of course, but all reasons I don't plan to watch the movie unless I read reviews from people I trust telling me that this wasn't the case.