Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

I think Jack liked Sam as a person, but if they weren't at work or doing something he liked, I don't think she could keep his interest. Even more so vice versa. I'd buy Sam having a true friendship with anyone else on the team, old or new, but I just can't see it with Jack. They work together—that's it.

Nail meet head ... you've hit it perfectly.

What on Earth would they talk about? Beyond work experiences, where's the common ground? Massive boredom would hit on both sides in short order.

I think they share a limited friendship ... a work-related friendship that is a little more than co-workers maybe, given the bonds of the team. But at the heart of my problems with the ship (leaving aside my huge issues with what it did to the team dynamic) there is no sense of shared emotional connection between them. Jack shuts her down every single time she tries to talk about feeeelings. Worst/best example? Lost City ... could that scene in his house be any more excruciating? That scene also proves that Sam doesn't spend time at his house. She looks around like she hardly knows the place. I always fast forward through it. I can't watch it.

I see Sam as close friends with Daniel and Teal'c (and I can certainly buy the shippy hints in Unending between Sam and Teal'c because of, hello, an emotional connection), I see Sam and Mitchell as primarily colleagues, and I think Sam and Vala could have lots of fun.

But Jack/Sam? Never in a million years.

Glad to see the thread back.

[discodiva]

Me too.....some fantastically detailed and eloquent examples of why this ship has never "floated my boat" either....I don't really have much to say atm partly due to the fact I'm busy rushing around doing "stuff" in real life and also because so many of my exact feelings have been covered already above.....


It is nice to be able to discuss our feelings politely, calmly and in such depth....I am very glad we got ourselves sorted out in such a quick and painless fashion....


Deeds xx

[Madeleine]

Unfortunately, I think Mallozzi encourages some of this. While I appreciate that JM bothers to interact with the fans, and that he does answer their questions (sometimes ), I don't appreciate his revisionist approach to SG cannon. He seems to think that by saying "oh this was a deleted scene!" or "oh, I wanted to include this but it never made it into the episode," that makes something cannon. Hence the "missing scene" from Atlantis' Trio that somehow proves S/J is cannon. Which just doesn't work, because how does JM know that BW and RCC, and everyone else, would agree with his perspective? It's just JM's interpretation, which is no more valid than anyone else's. Especially if it's based on something that never even made it into an episode.

I think it's fine. I think JM increases net happiness in fandom with that sort of thing, as long as the people he's not directing his comments towards are happy to just ignore him. The shippers get something that's inbetween fanfic and onscreen canon, which isn't the canon they'd prefer, but still it's something.

And the rest of us can ignore it because it's... well, it's like Khenthawes says: JM's view is not the be-all, as he is a co-creator not the sole writer. I can ignore the existence of deleted or unfilmed scenes; or I can pay attention to their pseudo-existence and conclude that there was a reason they never got filmed or screened. Either way, I'm happy enough, and meanwhile the shippers have their perk to enjoy

[jdjunkie]

I think it's fine. I think JM increases net happiness in fandom with that sort of thing, as long as the people he's not directing his comments towards are happy to just ignore him. The shippers get something that's inbetween fanfic and onscreen canon, which isn't the canon they'd prefer, but still it's something.

And the rest of us can ignore it because it's... well, it's like Khenthawes says: JM's view is not the be-all, as he is a co-creator not the sole writer. I can ignore the existence of deleted or unfilmed scenes; or I can pay attention to their pseudo-existence and conclude that there was a reason they never got filmed or screened. Either way, I'm happy enough, and meanwhile the shippers have their perk to enjoy

I find it quite easy to ignore Mallozzi.

However, I do think sometimes his non-answers, his obtuse hints lead some fans to expect certain things that are then never delivered, which in turn leads to mighty rending of garments. He doesn't help the growing culture of fan entitlement that sets my teeth on edge.

[MerryK]

Basically, I've found in my own life that there's a difference between "work-friends" and "personal-friends." I work in an academic setting and I take classes in the same academic institution. I have colleagues that I see two to three times a week, and I call them "friends" but I would never do anything with them outside of the academic setting because we don't have anything in common outside of where we work/attend classes. So in that sense, we're more of friendly colleagues than personal friends. That's kind of how I see Jack and Sam. They certainly have a level of trust, respect, and camaraderie, but it's rooted firmly in their job, not in their personal lives. At least, that's my take on it.

That's exactly where I was coming from. I love my co-workers, and we have fun and even talk about personal things sometimes, but they aren't the people I call up on the weekend to see if they want to go to a movie and they certainly aren't the people I talk to about deep struggles I've been having with life. It's not meaningless friendship—I would grieve if something tragic happened to them—but even so, there's no real depth.

[fyere]

Oh, hel-looo. I didn't even know a thread like this existed on GW.

'Scuse me while I read the last 100 pages.....

[LoneStar1836]

I don't know, I just don't see it. But then, I can't think of any television show lead character romances that I've been in favor of. I think TV shows just naturally say lead man + lead woman = great TV show!! And I almost always think just the opposite.

Me either. I don't watch a show looking for a ship to develop between the leads.

I enjoyed the friendship and UST on The X-Files all those years and then tptb went and made it cannon and then bleh. It lead to things in the show that I didn't like after that, particularly the baby storyline mess.

I think the only show where I absolutely loved and enjoyed the ship from the get go was John/Aeryn on Farscape. No ship past, present or future will ever top that one for me. The writers and the actors pulled that one off very well. The ship was one of the main reasons I watched the show, but it's a rare exception.

Actually, I usually don't have a problem with TV ships - Stargate's always been a big exception. But I think exactly the same thing. My biggest problem with the ship has always been the chain of command issue, and yeah, my second would be the way the writers used it to screw up the team dynamics. But third would definitely be this. The writers never convinced me that they were really even friends, outside of work. I bought that Sam and Daniel were friends, that Sam and Janet were friends, etc, etc. But Jack and Sam seemed to have no connection whatsoever outside of this weird mutual attraction and their work.

My thoughts as well.

I really, really got annoyed at the scene in Heroes; excellent episode, brilliantly acted but that scene rankled because of how it was shot, it wasn't about Sam feeling she needed comfort because her best friend, the one she was bringing up Cassie with, had just died. It was all about her and Sir. Which devalued her relationship with Janet, Cassie and Jack and devalued Sam herself, making her no more than a vessel for her feelings for her CO - a romance where you cut out all the other people you cared for is never healthy and seldom ends well. Love is selfless and lays down its life for others, love is much more than 'hearts and flowers' and doodling S loves J on your notebook in pink ink.

Ditto the scene in Sam's lab in Evolution part one, when Jack comes to tell her he's going to go get Daniel.
That scene should have been so interesting - Sam was going on a dangerous mission but she was going in the company of three of the best warriors the SGC had (Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob). It should have been Jack trying to give her a pep talk about leading such a... forceful group and the dynamics of having people like your father and ancient warriors under your command. And Sam's worry should have been about her best friend, her 'science twin' and her CO going out on a risky mission to rescue him. Instead it was all shot with Vaseline on the lens and was all about deeply meaningful glances between star-crossed lovers. Excuse me while I hurl.

Agreed and agreed. The first one was just infuriating (not to mention the stupid little game they played with that episode...Is Jack dead or not?) for doing that to Carter, and the second one is most definitely hurl worthy. *bleh*

I perceive a change in attitude now the show is over. I do think the writers will do something to end the interminable mess. Particularly with the positive responses to the Adama/Roslin relationship in BSG. But I think it will be a damp squib; unsatisfying all round. The truly dedicated fans will not think it enough; the fans who hate the relationship will find it obtrusive and the bulk of the fans who don’t care either way? That will depend on how clever the writers are. I’m not holding out much hope and the one thing I know for sure, they are not going to please everyone.

FF

That is one thing I wonder about. Will they try to have more of a resolution? And just how much more can tptb mangle that ill conceived ship? I'm not sure we have seen the last of this.


lol. S/J is nothing compared to A/R on BSG, which I thought worked very well on the show.

Course BSG did pull the same crap that SG-1 did when it introduced poor Pete into the shippy picture to create conflict to the added detriment of Carter's character. BSG had the quadrangle with Lee/Kara/Sam/Dee that was an absolute pain to watch to the detriment of the show.

[Killdeer]

I find it very squicky as well. It just doesn't feel like an equal relationship, and it makes me uncomfortable. I can't see Jack figuring out how to leave his command persona at the office. And I can't see Sam transitioning from the 2IC who follows Jack's orders, to an equal partner. I also can't see her standing up to him if he starts to act like a jerk, which quite honestly would be a necessity. And how are they going to spend time together, anyway? He'll sit at his cabin fishing or watching hockey while she tries to explain her latest research in wormhole theory to him? I'm just not seeing it.

I think this, here, bottom-lines why the idea of a relationship between them disturbs me so much. For me, being equal partners in a relationship is of the utmost importance, and from what I've seen of their relationship onscreen, I can't imagine that happening with them.

For me, it would have been a more interesting storyline to focus on Sam learning from Jack's leadership experience in sort of a mentoring type relationship.

Yes, I agree. To be honest, I really didn't mind some of the playful, casual UST in the very early seasons, because it came across to me as just that, casual, never going to go anywhere. It was when it transformed from a casual attraction to "star-crossed lovers" that I started having issues with it.

The whole scene is stilted and unreal, forced. And what gets me is that they tell us so much about Sam, Jack, the rest of the team and the tensions between them without realizing. For example, Sam and Jack are awkward in the scene, Jack is closed off and unwilling, even in the face of death to reach out and come to terms with what ever is between them. You can read that as him being self sacrificing; being unwilling to burden Sam with his love for her when he’s doomed to die, but that’s awfully melodramatic and stilted and based on theories of love, rather than observing normal human interactions. Sam looks stupefyingly gauche and awkward in Jack’s personal space; like a deer in the headlights, we get no impression that she is used to being with him in a social situation or in his home. And then, in breeze Daniel and Teal’c, with just ‘a shave and a haircut’ knock on the door. This says things about the team dynamic which I am sure were not the intent of the writer.

I think they share a limited friendship ... a work-related friendship that is a little more than co-workers maybe, given the bonds of the team. But at the heart of my problems with the ship (leaving aside my huge issues with what it did to the team dynamic) there is no sense of shared emotional connection between them. Jack shuts her down every single time she tries to talk about feeeelings. Worst/best example? Lost City ... could that scene in his house be any more excruciating? That scene also proves that Sam doesn't spend time at his house. She looks around like she hardly knows the place. I always fast forward through it. I can't watch it.

Quoting because I completely agree. Here at this point in their relationship they've known each for seven years. If they can't communicate at this point, are they ever going to be able to? The whole, awkward, can't talk to each other thing is NOT romantic! It's just awkward!

[fyere]

I watched '200' yesterday and I actually had a *dream* last night that I was at the SG-1 writers' table ranting to everyone else about one particular scene in that ep that disgusted me - the one where Invisible!Jack spies on Sam in the shower room. Which I hated not (just) because it pushed the S/J - I hated that because it undermined and demeaned the character of Jack O'Neill as a whole. I'm surprised RDA actually read it in the script and agreed to it.

That is one thing I wonder about. Will they try to have more of a resolution? And just how much more can tptb mangle that ill conceived ship? I'm not sure we have seen the last of this.

That is a little worrying. Especially considering the next film is being touted as Jack-heavy and, you know, what else has Jack to do besides be one half of Sam-and-Jack? In a perfect world, the 3rd movie would hearken back to the original movie - have Jack and Daniel team up and do something cool. But that's unlikely.

[Frostfox]

Oh, hel-looo. I didn't even know a thread like this existed on GW.

'Scuse me while I read the last 100 pages.....

Enjoy.

FF

[Killdeer]

I watched '200' yesterday and I actually had a *dream* last night that I was at the SG-1 writers' table ranting to everyone else about one particular scene in that ep that disgusted me - the one where Invisible!Jack spies on Sam in the shower room. Which I hated not (just) because it pushed the S/J - I hated that because it undermined and demeaned the character of Jack O'Neill as a whole. I'm surprised RDA actually read it in the script and agreed to it.

I didn't care for that scene either. The rest of the "Invisible!O'Neill" sequence I found quite funny, but I do wish they'd left that scene out.

That is a little worrying. Especially considering the next film is being touted as Jack-heavy and, you know, what else has Jack to do besides be one half of Sam-and-Jack? In a perfect world, the 3rd movie would hearken back to the original movie - have Jack and Daniel team up and do something cool. But that's unlikely.

If I believed that Jack and Daniel were actually going to get any decent time together, or even Sam and Daniel, I might actually watch the 3rd movie. However, based on the past few years of history, I'm more than sceptical. And the rumors of

Spoiler:

some sort of S/J scene(s) certainly aren't helping.

[fyere]

I didn't care for that scene either. The rest of the "Invisible!O'Neill" sequence I found quite funny, but I do wish they'd left that scene out.

Yeah. It was completely ridiculous. Um, the Jack O'Neill (we thought) we know and love, an honorable and gentlemanly full-bird Colonel, using his alien powers of invisibility to spy on his naked second-in-command? If Hammond knew about that, Jack would sure get a royal smackdown from him, and well-deserved. That's sexual harassment - I don't care what kind of crush she might have on him.

Fortunately, it's 200, so I can choose to believe that never happened.

If I believed that Jack and Daniel were actually going to get any decent time together, or even Sam and Daniel, I might actually watch the 3rd movie. However, based on the past few years of history, I'm more than sceptical. And the rumors of some sort of S/J scene(s) certainly aren't helping.

There are *rumors* now? Oh, dear. Well, I should have just assumed... D:

[Liv]

In Lost City and Threads she goes to talk to Jack (and we never find out what she wanted to say, so it makes for some pretty awkward and somewhat boring scenes, IMO).

There really is a whole lot of awkwardness going around in both those scenes in Lost City and Threads, and it really throws me out of the story.

It doesn’t feel organic. It doesn't feel like there’s been a natural progress to their relationship, instead it feels disjointed and fractured and out of place.

Like the writers just decided that "hey, let's throw a shippy scene in here and then let's get on with the story". I never felt that way when I watched shows like Babylon 5 or Farscape. The 'shippy scenes' never felt like they were specifically designed to be just 'shippy scenes', they felt like they were a natural progression of the storyline and the characters. (I'm thinking mainly of Sheridan/Delenn and John/Aeryn, here).

[Killdeer]

Fortunately, it's 200, so I can choose to believe that never happened.

Indeed.

There are *rumors* now? Oh, dear. Well, I should have just assumed... D:

Oh dear - I suppose I should have spoilered that - sorry!

[Frostfox]

I watched '200' yesterday and I actually had a *dream* last night that I was at the SG-1 writers' table ranting to everyone else about one particular scene in that ep that disgusted me - the one where Invisible!Jack spies on Sam in the shower room. Which I hated not (just) because it pushed the S/J - I hated that because it undermined and demeaned the character of Jack O'Neill as a whole. I'm surprised RDA actually read it in the script and agreed to it.

Shudder. There are names for the kind of men who spy on women in public showers. I never thought any of them would be associated with Jack O'Neil, even in jest.

That is a little worrying. Especially considering the next film is being touted as Jack-heavy and, you know, what else has Jack to do besides be one half of Sam-and-Jack? In a perfect world, the 3rd movie would hearken back to the original movie - have Jack and Daniel team up and do something cool. But that's unlikely.

They make a mess of it, I don't buy it, easy as that.
More than any potential 'romance' I'm more worried that all we will get is Joker!Jack, I'm concerned that the writers have forgotten how to write Jack well. There was some serious Jack in The Shroud, fighting for Daniel's life but all we got of Jack in Continuum (not ALT Jack) was the buffoon, the joker. Which, when faced with Ba'al, felt particularly shallow, give Ba'al and Jack's history. Some joking, as self defense I can see, but this was too much and too surface; give RDA some depth to play with the character or all he will do is cruise and all we will get is a shadow of who Jack used to be.

FF