Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

I have a question because I know absolutely nothing about this kind of thing, but now that Jack is in Washington and Sam isn't, would the Air Force be OK with them having a relationship even though he outranks her? Would it have been all right for them to date if she were on a different team? Would Jack have been allowed to date Janet? Would Sam have been allowed to date Daniel before she was the team leader in season 8? Would Cam and Sam be allowed to date each other since they're the same rank? (Not that I'm advocating any of those relationships IN ANY WAY!!!!! I'm just unclear on what is and isn't acceptable in the Air Force with regards to dating.)

Don't know, is the short answer!
I wouldn't think Sam and Jack would still be in the same chain of command. Though I suppose that depends on Jack's job in Washington, I don't think it's ever been made clear.
Sam and Daniel? Sam and Cam? Jack and Janet? Well Janet would have to stand down as his doctor. Two team mates? I can't really see the AF wanting that for the same reason as J/S being illegal.

Of course, as more and more time passes since Jack stopped being on SG1 (4 years?) and left for Washington (2-3 years?) 'the regs' becomes less of an issue between Jack and Sam (but don't worry, I can think of at least another half dozen reasons why it would be a bad idea ).
However, the gossip, particularly about Sam would be utterly brutal about how she got to where she has, it would taint her career. Which is completely unfair but, sadly, the way of the world for female officers, even in the 21st century.

FF

[jckfan55]

Although honestly, that was part of why I love Seasons 9/10, because Sam was totally unshipped, and normal and happy in spite of it.

Or because of it. When I first started watching SG1 one of the appealing things about it to me was that Sam wasn't paired with anyone. Too many shows automatically seemed to hook up the lead female with the lead male. So cliche. But originally the four of them were team mates who each contributed important things without romance getting involved. Sam was Sam. Not "the girl." As Greta Garbo said in Ninotchka "don't make an issue of my womanhood."

[Frostfox]

Or because of it. When I first started watching SG1 one of the appealing things about it to me was that Sam wasn't paired with anyone. Too many shows automatically seemed to hook up the lead female with the lead male. So cliche. But originally the four of them were team mates who each contributed important things without romance getting involved. Sam was Sam. Not "the girl." As Greta Garbo said in Ninotchka "don't make an issue of my womanhood."

There are issues beyond SG1 going on here.
SG1 is a mainstream, middle of the road, action adventure show, filmed in Canada for the American (and to a lesser extent, international) market. It's values and morals are dictated by the writers (white, middle class, middle aged men) and the dictates of the network, show producers & MGM.
As with most US mainstream TV, certain conventions are taken as the norm; the leading man hooking up with the leading lady. A woman must want a man/stable relationship/children to be normal and attractive. A man must be alpha, strong, attractive to women and attracted to them.
It's all a bit limiting, but it's not SG1 or the writers fault, per say.

Me, I like my TV to have a bit more edge, so while SG1 is fun, great escapism, often charming and had a magical cast, and I expect it to confirm to the norms of the genre.
But, sometimes, I get disappointed, when it's not necessarily SG1's fault, when I want too much from the show and the show writers.

FF

[MerryK]

Or because of it. When I first started watching SG1 one of the appealing things about it to me was that Sam wasn't paired with anyone. Too many shows automatically seemed to hook up the lead female with the lead male. So cliche. But originally the four of them were team mates who each contributed important things without romance getting involved. Sam was Sam. Not "the girl." As Greta Garbo said in Ninotchka "don't make an issue of my womanhood."

That's actually what I was trying to say--I wasn't trying to express my feelings, just the overall impression I get from Sam fans who ship because they "want Sam to be happy", when I see her at almost her happiest when there's no shippy tension at all.

[Frostfox]

That's actually what I was trying to say--I wasn't trying to express my feelings, just the overall impression I get from Sam fans who ship because they "want Sam to be happy", when I see her at almost her happiest when there's no shippy tension at all.

OH YES!
Why, in the 21st century, do people still think that a heterosexual, monogamous relationship is the only valid route to happiness?

How many of your friends, family, co-workers don't fall within that narrow parameter?

Do all your friends in heterosexual, monogamous relationships live in unending bliss? Does everyone else live in misery.

FF

[Khentkawes]

There are few good mentoring shows between men and women on TV. The assumption is always that it must end in romance and it's just not realistic. I would have been a very busy girl if I had ended up in a romantic relationship with all the people who I've worked closely with over the years.
And people feel sexual attraction towards each other all the time, they just deal with it like mature adults and 'leave it in the room'.
I think this is in part why we don't see Jack and Sam as close friends; because they know there is a latent attraction between each other, they wouldn't socialise without Daniel and Teal'c too. If you feel something like that, you don't put yourself in situations where it stress' the working relationship you have.

I agree. It's why I think Sam and Jack's friendship is more based on their work, mutual respect, some good natured teasing, and shared cameraderie. That's the basis of their friendship and working relationship, but I can't see it extending to spending time alone together off-base. And if they really are attracted to each other, it would definitely be a bad idea to put themselves in that sort of situation. Actually, it could be potentially problematic (and gossip-producing) regardless of whether or not they are attracted to each other.

It was the whole "star-crossed lovers" rubbish that had me laughing all the way to the old anti-thread.

*adopts movie voice-over trailer voice* Two Air Force officers, kept apart by the demands of duty, deny their one true love for the greater good mankind. Behold, the greatest love story never told.

ROTFL!

Although honestly, that was part of why I love Seasons 9/10, because Sam was totally unshipped, and normal and happy in spite of it.

Absolutely! Couldn't agree more.

For a while, I thought that I really hated Sam's character. Then I watched seasons 9/10 and I loved Sam. She was great. Professional, caring towards her teammates, smart, funny, and she decked Ba'al! Seriously, what's not to love? It's just the shipy Sam (and occasionally super-Sam, which usually went hand-in-hand with shipy Sam, for some reason) that I find irritating.

'written in the stars' ?? Apparently something else I completely missed from the show, thank goodness.

Lol. Yeah, I think the biggest problem was they kept emphasizing that in every alternate reality, Sam and Jack got together. Like it was some cosmic destiny or something. And IMO, that's just cheesy.

Or because of it. When I first started watching SG1 one of the appealing things about it to me was that Sam wasn't paired with anyone. Too many shows automatically seemed to hook up the lead female with the lead male. So cliche. But originally the four of them were team mates who each contributed important things without romance getting involved. Sam was Sam. Not "the girl." As Greta Garbo said in Ninotchka "don't make an issue of my womanhood."

Yep! I definitely agree. I get so tired of shows that pair up every female character, because it's not necessary.

Interestingly though, in regards to Sam as "the girl," I have been trying to get this friend to watch Stargate. She watched The Quest 1 & 2 and The Shroud with me once, and liked them. So I had her watch CotG, and she said that Sam was obviously acting like "the girl" in spite of her little feminist spiel. I think what made her think Sam was "girly" was her excitement over the stargate, and how she kinda forgets about everything while she babbles on about how cool the event horizon is, and then she does the same thing in the pyramid. I'm not sure if this is really "girly" behavior, but it was interesting to me that my friend thought it was. *shrug* The again, my friend thought that Daniel was "immature," so maybe I just don't agree with her assessments of the characters.

[quasar]

It irritated me that tptb didn't think that Sam being a strong independent woman was enough to make the character interesting. I liked the "kick butt" Sam that could handle herself in a conflict, much better than the Sam that pathetically showed up at "Sir's" barbecue to stumble through her declaration of love. I hated the way tptb had Sam blowing off Cassie's feelings at the death of her mother (especially when Sam herself lost her own mother at a young age) and focused on Sam's need for a hug from Sir because she had worried over him. It made her look so self-centered and insensitive.

I liked the season 9-10 Sam that could show affection for her team mates with pats and touches that were in no way intended to be romantic.
To me, the J/S ship was destructive to the character of Sam. When Jack's first act upon becoming general was to promote the woman tptb were trying to ship him with, that put both characters in a negative light.

[jckfan55]

I liked the season 9-10 Sam that could show affection for her team mates with pats and touches that were in no way intended to be romantic.
To me, the J/S ship was destructive to the character of Sam. When Jack's first act upon becoming general was to promote the woman tptb were trying to ship him with, that put both characters in a negative light.

I agree on the first point and disagree on the highlighted one. Jack could NOT promote Sam. He merely made the announcement. And he said his "first order of business was the *announcement* " not the creation of the promotion. But by structuring that scene and the one before it ("I can do anything I want") the way they did, TPTB could leave that impression with those who don't know how military promotions work.

ETA: I'm not claiming to be a big military expert, but I do know such things go before a board.

[Khentkawes]

I agree on the first point and disagree on the highlighted one. Jack could NOT promote Sam. He merely made the announcement. And he said his "first order of business was the *announcement* " not the creation of the promotion. But by structuring that scene and the one before it ("I can do anything I want") the way they did, TPTB could leave that impression with those who don't know how military promotions work.

ETA: I'm not claiming to be a big military expert, but I do know such things go before a board.

While I agree that it wasn't entirely Jack's decision to promote Carter, I do think the way it was written strongly implied that Jack had suggested and pushed for the promotion. True, they never explicitly said as much, but I've always felt that the scene implied it. Her promotion is announced as a surprise to Carter at the ceremony where Jack is taking command of the SGC. The moment is focusing on Jack, so it makes sense to assume that whatever he adds to the ceremony was his idea (from a simple storytelling perspective, apart from the military logistics). And I'm pretty sure that officers know when they are being considered by the promotion board so I doubt she would be promoted "by surprise." I'm not an expert on military procedures either, but I'm pretty sure that officers come up for review by the promotion board at regular intervals, and that they know when they are being reviewed by the board. So to me, the surprise element made it look like the promotion did not go through the normal channels, which implies favoritism. Between that, and the timing of the announcement, the whole scene just looked fishy to me, in more ways than one.

[quasar]

I agree on the first point and disagree on the highlighted one. Jack could NOT promote Sam. He merely made the announcement. And he said his "first order of business was the *announcement* " not the creation of the promotion. But by structuring that scene and the one before it ("I can do anything I want") the way they did, TPTB could leave that impression with those who don't know how military promotions work.

ETA: I'm not claiming to be a big military expert, but I do know such things go before a board.

TPTB left me with that impression as I didn't research military promotions upon watching the episode. The writers certainly must have researched military procedure before writing a military show, and by structuring the scene in the matter in which they did, the non military viewer is left to assume the first thing Jack does as general is promote Sam. The way it was presented left me thinking that the reason Sam got the promotion was Jack's feelings for her---which I think is wrong to imply. Sam should have gotten her promotion at some other time. I'm not questioning that she deserved the promotion, it's how it was presented with a J/S ship attached to it.

[VSS]

It irritated me that tptb didn't think that Sam being a strong independent woman was enough to make the character interesting. I liked the "kick butt" Sam that could handle herself in a conflict, much better than the Sam that pathetically showed up at "Sir's" barbecue to stumble through her declaration of love. I hated the way tptb had Sam blowing off Cassie's feelings at the death of her mother (especially when Sam herself lost her own mother at a young age) and focused on Sam's need for a hug from Sir because she had worried over him. It made her look so self-centered and insensitive.

I liked the season 9-10 Sam that could show affection for her team mates with pats and touches that were in no way intended to be romantic.
To me, the J/S ship was destructive to the character of Sam. When Jack's first act upon becoming general was to promote the woman tptb were trying to ship him with, that put both characters in a negative light.

I'm a shipper, but I have to agree with you here. Although, I was just going through the first few eps and I was kind of shocked at how they wrote Sam in the beginning, too, and not just the awful lines in CotG, either. I think they never really knew what to do with her, they just kept hammering "the only female on the team and a cute one at that" theme over and over.

On the other hand, I think they stopped shipping her with everyone in sight in S9 & S10 because of Jack, so the S/J ship wasn't entirely destructive of her character in the end.

TPTB left me with that impression as I didn't research military promotions upon watching the episode. The writers certainly must have researched military procedure before writing a military show, and by structuring the scene in the matter in which they did, the non military viewer is left to assume the first thing Jack does as general is promote Sam. The way it was presented left me thinking that the reason Sam got the promotion was Jack's feelings for her---which I think is wrong to imply. Sam should have gotten her promotion at some other time. I'm not questioning that she deserved the promotion, it's how it was presented with a J/S ship attached to it.

Huh. I never thought of it that way but you could be right. In fact, AT even took some lines out of SGA's Reunion when Sam mentions how she got the post. It was supposed to include a recommendation from General O'Neill but she thought it sounded like favoritism and asked that it be removed.

[MerryK]

OH YES!
Why, in the 21st century, do people still think that a heterosexual, monogamous relationship is the only valid route to happiness?

How many of your friends, family, co-workers don't fall within that narrow parameter?

Do all your friends in heterosexual, monogamous relationships live in unending bliss? Does everyone else live in misery.

FF

Preaching to the choir, FF, at least in my case. I'm one of those happily single folks, and while I'm not anti-relationships, it bugs me when those are treated as the only healthy options.

[Khentkawes]

Preaching to the choir, FF, at least in my case. I'm one of those happily single folks, and while I'm not anti-relationships, it bugs me when those are treated as the only healthy options.

Hey I can join the choir too! I'm single and perfectly happy not to date. My college classmates think I'm weird.

[EvenstarSRV]

Lol. Yeah, I think the biggest problem was they kept emphasizing that in every alternate reality, Sam and Jack got together. Like it was some cosmic destiny or something. And IMO, that's just cheesy.

But that's just it, it wasn't every reality. There were two AUs for Sam/Jack (Grace of God and Point of View) and one AT (Moebius). There was an AT for Joe Faxon (2010), AUs for Martouf and McKay (Ripple Effect and Road Not Taken, respectively), and the Continuum AT that was unknown for Sam but likely no Sam/Jack because of the implied Jack/Sara.

So the impression I got was that Sam/Jack was just a theoretical possibility in the line of multi-verse theory, not destiny. Indeed, the fact that the Sam/Jack AUs and AT had a civilian Sam and our Sam is military kinda suggests that Sam/Jack is not a high probability for our Stargate reality.

While I agree that it wasn't entirely Jack's decision to promote Carter, I do think the way it was written strongly implied that Jack had suggested and pushed for the promotion. True, they never explicitly said as much, but I've always felt that the scene implied it. Her promotion is announced as a surprise to Carter at the ceremony where Jack is taking command of the SGC. The moment is focusing on Jack, so it makes sense to assume that whatever he adds to the ceremony was his idea (from a simple storytelling perspective, apart from the military logistics). And I'm pretty sure that officers know when they are being considered by the promotion board so I doubt she would be promoted "by surprise." I'm not an expert on military procedures either, but I'm pretty sure that officers come up for review by the promotion board at regular intervals, and that they know when they are being reviewed by the board. So to me, the surprise element made it look like the promotion did not go through the normal channels, which implies favoritism. Between that, and the timing of the announcement, the whole scene just looked fishy to me, in more ways than one.

I don't really have a problem with Jack pushing for or suggesting Sam's promotion, I think that's in line with his role as her commanding officer, wanting the people under his command to be rewarded for their work. I think it's likely he pushed for her promotion to Major for similar reasons.

I also personally saw Sam's surprise as in reaction to Jack announcing her promotion at his ceremony, rather than surprise at the promotion itself, which she was most likely aware of as a possibility.

OH YES!
Why, in the 21st century, do people still think that a heterosexual, monogamous relationship is the only valid route to happiness?

How many of your friends, family, co-workers don't fall within that narrow parameter?

Do all your friends in heterosexual, monogamous relationships live in unending bliss? Does everyone else live in misery.

I agree that people believing that kind of relationship as the only route to happiness is rather narrow-minded, but I feel that routes to happiness is something every person decides for themselves.

If someone does feel that they personally will find happiness in that kind of relationship, then as long as they don't try to push me into the same belief, I don't feel comfortable judging them for having that feeling, even though I may not share it. To each their own.

My impression of people who like to ship Sam with Jack is that they want her to be happy by resolving the tension and having them get together, not maintaining the tension by keeping them apart.

[Frostfox]

It irritated me that tptb didn't think that Sam being a strong independent woman was enough to make the character interesting. I liked the "kick butt" Sam that could handle herself in a conflict, much better than the Sam that pathetically showed up at "Sir's" barbecue to stumble through her declaration of love. I hated the way tptb had Sam blowing off Cassie's feelings at the death of her mother (especially when Sam herself lost her own mother at a young age) and focused on Sam's need for a hug from Sir because she had worried over him. It made her look so self-centered and insensitive.

It's that attitude again; she can be a strong, interesting, independent woman, but without the love of a man, she is not complete. And that is complete rubbish.

The 'She's a strong kid (now give me a hug because you are the most important thing in my life, forget Janet and Cassie, pay attention to me)' scene made me sick.
And tore me totally out of a good episode because I wouldn't, for one moment, think that was in Sam's character. It was poor writing, poor directing choices which made it come over that way. Which is great if what you want your audience to take from the scene is that Sam is narcissistic. But I'm sure that wasn't their intent. I think they felt they needed to pander to the part of the audience which likes to see Sam needing Sir more than they needed the reference to Cassie. Which is wrong. Sam 'n Sir should, if it has to be, background, her character (and his) shouldn't be sacrificed to forward that plot thread.
Had it been scripted, shot, edited and generally been of the tone that Sam was upset because her best friend had died and her daughter was an orphan again, had the whole thing been about Janet and Cassie, then having Jack comfort her would have been fine. But it was shown, clearly, that this was about Sam nearly losing Jack, that was the main reason for her upset and that was why the general fanbase find the relationship mush to be so out of character and wrong. Better writing would have saved the scene.
(And, an aside, there's some not very attractive reverse sexism going on here too - Daniel witness' Janet's death, is clearly traumatised by that and isn't offered any comfort from his friends Presumably because he's a big macho man and men don't need comfort? Which is just as much baloney as women folding and needing a shoulder to cry on.)

I liked the season 9-10 Sam that could show affection for her team mates with pats and touches that were in no way intended to be romantic.
To me, the J/S ship was destructive to the character of Sam. When Jack's first act upon becoming general was to promote the woman tptb were trying to ship him with, that put both characters in a negative light.

TPTB left me with that impression as I didn't research military promotions upon watching the episode. The writers certainly must have researched military procedure before writing a military show, and by structuring the scene in the matter in which they did, the non military viewer is left to assume the first thing Jack does as general is promote Sam. The way it was presented left me thinking that the reason Sam got the promotion was Jack's feelings for her---which I think is wrong to imply. Sam should have gotten her promotion at some other time. I'm not questioning that she deserved the promotion, it's how it was presented with a J/S ship attached to it.

Yes, not knowing anything about the way the USAF really works, it was clearly implied that Jack gave Sam her promotion. And you could hear the gossip around base from here. Caesar's wife must be beyond reproach; not only must Jack not influence Sam's career, it must, at all times look as though he hasn't influenced it. SG1 are not low profile at the SGC (or, one assumes, in certain areas of Washington). It might be a cute scene for the shippers but it's more damage to their characters for the rest of us.

This is what we mean when we say that pushing them into a 'relationship' damages the characters, and not just for those of us who passionately dislike the idea. On a more generalised level, Sam is perceived more and more as being part of Sam and Jack, not Sam on her own merit. Her relationships take too much precedence over all the other aspects.
The writers admitted that they didn't know what to do with the character once RDA left, they had painted themselves into a corner by getting rid of all her interesting plot lines (the Tok'ra, Jacob, Janet and Cassie, Jolinar, off the top of my head) and only leaving her romantic life as the arc for her character.
Seasons 9 and 10 were good because they forced the writers to go back to writing Sam again. They did wallpaper her to some degree, while playing with their new shiny toys (Cam and Vala) but at least she could, as you say, show some affection for people without it having to have Deep and Meaningful implied all over it.

FF