Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[luthienberen]

Lol. Yeah, I guess it does. (Vala's costumes...had a whole rant on that on the Anti-Vala thread, though I don't hate her, just have issues with her). I was just so disappointed with the way the show changed directions in the last few seasons... The objectifying, the over-shippy episodes... I looked at the other couples I shipped for and saw the S/J ship in a new light...and hated it...

He is different. That Jack was almost embarrassing. I couldn't believe they gave him command of the SGC. And that should have made the s/j ship even less possible, but that didn't stop the writers...

I agree. The fanfiction out there can be horrible, but there's some I've read that's better than the show. Fanfiction is the only place I'll see my ship, and I don't mind because the writers would ruin it if they did it...

I hated that Jacob died more or less to push the ship. That was horrible because he wasn't for it...

I was thinking that shipping can be almost religious for people, and they can be rather fanatical about it. And if you don't ship what they ship, you're a heretic, and they want to burn you at the stake. Maybe I'm taking it too far, but it sometimes feels that way.

You're not taking it too far. It does feel that way sometimes. I ship but it is not the be all and end all of my life. If people disagree and/or cannot understand why I ship the way I do (or I them) then I leave it alone. I do not try and convert!

What does it matter what pairing a person likes?

My problem is that TPTB tried pandering to the masses and therefore ended up pitting people at each others throats. And it sees TPTB enjoy this bloody sport, which doesn't encourage respect from me. I do not want ship on SG-1 - never did, never shall - not only because TPTB cannot write it but because SG-1 was never about ship, and was much better before it ever ambled onto our screens.

Like JessM - another reason why I like Season 1-3 so much more than later seasons.

While alot of fanfiction is not very good (of course, what is good or bad fanfiction is subjective) it opens our minds to so many possiblites that the show cannot possibly do. It contains the 'what ifs', the AUs without pitting fan against fan. In ff what cannot happen on screen can happen in the world of the author - and it is better that way, for it doesn't ruin the charatcers of the show onscreen and therefore, deconstruct the show for the majority. Bitterness is not so quickly bred.

But TPTB couldn't do that. Instead they had to go down the same road as many other shows and have the girl fall for the hero. Bleh. In doing so they broke the rules of the world (military) that they created SG-1 in without nary a thought, for no better reason than: woman and man in same team must = romance/sexual emotions.

I never saw UST in Solitudes - and still don't, but it does make me wince because now I can no longer stand Jack/Sam in the same scene because I think: Did the TPTB plan ship even here? And I resent that so much I cannot trust them any more.

I DO NOT want to see ship resovled onscreen - I want it forgotten - but the rumours surrounding Jack's return have me sick with knowledge that TPTB might just try something. No matter ... I no longer watch - there are other things on TV or on DVD and books to keep me entertained.

[fishyone]

You're not taking it too far. It does feel that way sometimes. I ship but it is not the be all and end all of my life. If people disagree and/or cannot understand why I ship the way I do (or I them) then I leave it alone. I do not try and convert!

What does it matter what pairing a person likes?

My problem is that TPTB tried pandering to the masses and therefore ended up pitting people at each others throats. And it sees TPTB enjoy this bloody sport, which doesn't encourage respect from me. I do not want ship on SG-1 - never did, never shall - not only because TPTB cannot write it but because SG-1 was never about ship, and was much better before it ever ambled onto our screens.

Like JessM - another reason why I like Season 1-3 so much more than later seasons.

While alot of fanfiction is not very good (of course, what is good or bad fanfiction is subjective) it opens our minds to so many possiblites that the show cannot possibly do. It contains the 'what ifs', the AUs without pitting fan against fan. In ff what cannot happen on screen can happen in the world of the author - and it is better that way, for it doesn't ruin the charatcers of the show onscreen and therefore, deconstruct the show for the majority. Bitterness is not so quickly bred.

But TPTB couldn't do that. Instead they had to go down the same road as many other shows and have the girl fall for the hero. Bleh. In doing so they broke the rules of the world (military) that they created SG-1 in without nary a thought, for no better reason than: woman and man in same team must = romance/sexual emotions.

I never saw UST in Solitudes - and still don't, but it does make me wince because now I can no longer stand Jack/Sam in the same scene because I think: Did the TPTB plan ship even here? And I resent that so much I cannot trust them any more.

I DO NOT want to see ship resovled onscreen - I want it forgotten - but the rumours surrounding Jack's return have me sick with knowledge that TPTB might just try something. No matter ... I no longer watch - there are other things on TV or on DVD and books to keep me entertained.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about the ship thing. I was thinking about it, and it was the word "convert" that made me realize just how similiar the two seemed (religion & ship).

It is a shame that TPTB went with the masses and started the whole vicious cycle. I don't think people would be as harsh about it if there wasn't a supposedly "canon" ship.

I like season 3... I used to think season 7 was my favorite, but now 3 is. Season 7 is just too shippy...

I like AUs... I doubt I could stick to the canon world in any fic I wrote, even if it was gen... I like the ability to make it "mine," to do what I want to do, and to fix what I see as mistakes or loose threads. My decision to do that is not limited to Stargate... I've done it with several movies and books I've read where I was unsatisfied with the way that something was done.

Ship makes SG-1 not about the team but about the leader and his would-be girlfriend, which is not what it was meant to be. I wish they had never gone down that route. I don't want to see ship on-screen, so I hope that they never resolve it.

Meanwhile, I have my AU land where I live quite happily.

[JessM]

Glad that I made your day JessM.

Ship in my opinion went a long way in runing Jack's character for me. Ship made him callous towards his other teamates. His best friend (Daniel) was suddenly treated like dirt most of the time and as if Jack barely knew who he was any more. And I resent that utterly. Ship pushed the character of Carter forward, in the process declaring her 'perfect' and without fault - because she cannot be held responsible for her mistakes as she is MissNationalTreasure. I resent that.

I know what you mean. Jack did start acting that way to Daniel around the time that the ship stuff came to surface. I think it started in The Other Side when he had that huge argument with Daniel and it just progressed after that. He was quite distant toward Daniel in S5, and that moment from Menace where Jack shoots Reese and Daniel says to him, "You stupid SOB"... it sort of shows us where their relationship has gone... well, to me, it does.

It's funny that you mention Sam being "perfect" - because that is definitely the view that the s/j people have put forth to me many times. I once mentioned that I wasn't happy with the way she neglected Daniel at the end of Affinity. They got defensive of her and said, "Well, Daniel hasn't been nice to her on this occasion and that occassion... bla bla blah..." Sam is definitely not perfect.

Jack was reduced to the role of vivallge idiot whose main role in later Seasons seem to be 'joke man'. I resent that. An intellignet, complex character, was reduced to no more than an idiot to make Carter look good, (he can't read a pilot's manuel or construct a bomb? Did TPTB watch the film or their eariler episodes?), and to try and force the romance between the two characters. For heaven's sake! Jack (RDA) most of the time looks consipated whenever shippy stuff waltzes onto our screens.

Ugh, that got under my skin, too. The wisecracks and the odd statements made it see like he was there for comic relief...though I didn't buy it. LOL... "constipated"... yeah, I could see that, too.

[fishyone]

I know what you mean. Jack did start acting that way to Daniel around the time that the ship stuff came to surface. I think it started in The Other Side when he had that huge argument with Daniel and it just progressed after that. He was quite distant toward Daniel in S5, and that moment from Menace where Jack shoots Reese and Daniel says to him, "You stupid SOB"... it sort of shows us where their relationship has gone... well, to me, it does.

It's funny that you mention Sam being "perfect" - because that is definitely the view that the s/j people have put forth to me many times. I once mentioned that I wasn't happy with the way she neglected Daniel at the end of Affinity. They got defensive of her and said, "Well, Daniel hasn't been nice to her on this occasion and that occassion... bla bla blah..." Sam is definitely not perfect.



Ugh, that got under my skin, too. The wisecracks and the odd statements made it see like he was there for comic relief...though I didn't buy it. LOL... "constipated"... yeah, I could see that, too.

I agree with all of this (and the post you quoted...shame gateworld won't allow double quotes... I could find it, but I'm lazy). I think it's terrible how the friendship between Daniel and Jack deteriorated after the ship... And a lot of s/j people I've talked to don't see it... They don't think it's there... But Jack was not really a friend there towards the "end," before Daniel died.

Sam is not perfect. She's human, and she makes mistakes. However Daniel acted towards Sam, that doesn't excuse the way she ignored him for ship reasons. Two wrongs does not equal a right. Maybe Daniel did something wrong... Maybe Sam did something wrong. But that doesn't mean that the other one has the right to be hurtful or neglectful in return.

And what happened to Jack is such a shame. Yes, it's funny... I'd say Jack looks rather serious ( ) during the ship moments.

[JessM]

I agree with all of this (and the post you quoted...shame gateworld won't allow double quotes... I could find it, but I'm lazy). I think it's terrible how the friendship between Daniel and Jack deteriorated after the ship... And a lot of s/j people I've talked to don't see it... They don't think it's there... But Jack was not really a friend there towards the "end," before Daniel died.

Sam is not perfect. She's human, and she makes mistakes. However Daniel acted towards Sam, that doesn't excuse the way she ignored him for ship reasons. Two wrongs does not equal a right. Maybe Daniel did something wrong... Maybe Sam did something wrong. But that doesn't mean that the other one has the right to be hurtful or neglectful in return.

And what happened to Jack is such a shame. Yes, it's funny... I'd say Jack looks rather serious ( ) during the ship moments.

I know, and I think it mirrors the way that some s/j people see Daniel (as reflected at sites like jumptheshark.com and in some fanfiction), as annoying and in the way... someone Jack should be ignoring or telling off half the time.

Very true. And I don't know what to say about Into the Fire, where Sam tells Daniel not to go with her because he's injured, and then she ends up with Jack. I know that the s/j people argue that it's appropriate because Daniel is hurt and could slow her down, and he was better off back with the others (even though he did get captured by Trofsky). Who knows, but it almost did seem like a thinly veiled attempt to just get Sam with Jack by any means.

"Serious"... LOL I think Daniel or Teal'c need to give him something for that.

[fishyone]

I know, and I think it mirrors the way that some s/j people see Daniel (as reflected at sites like jumptheshark.com and in some fanfiction), as annoying and in the way... someone Jack should be ignoring or telling off half the time.

Very true. And I don't know what to say about Into the Fire, where Sam tells Daniel not to go with her because he's injured, and then she ends up with Jack. I know that the s/j people argue that it's appropriate because Daniel is hurt and could slow her down, and he was better off back with the others (even though he did get captured by Trofsky). Who knows, but it almost did seem like a thinly veiled attempt to just get Sam with Jack by any means.

"Serious"... LOL I think Daniel or Teal'c need to give him something for that.

It's a shame what the ship has done to the character of Daniel. There are even some people who don't believe he opened the gate... That Sam did it, and there's no reason for him to be on the show.

The part in Into the Fire bugged me from the first time I saw it. I don't care how they try to justify that. She knew that the others were going to attack the gate. Oh, and it's so much better for the wounded Daniel to go with them? He would have slowed them down (and possibly gotten himself killed) more with his injury than her. Now, if she'd said, wait in the tunnel until we retake the gate, that I could believe.

Yeah... Jack could use some help... Much too serious.

[fishyone]

Thought of another thing that bugs me. It may be just me, but in looking for fan vids, I can't seem to find one of Sam that is just Sam. Almost every vid includes scenes from Window of Opportunity or Broca Divide. Some of them I can stand more than others, but it bothers me that people believe that ship is so integral to her character that they can't make a vid without it. I've even specially requested a no-ship vid rec and gotten ship (however subtle) in the vids.

[luthienberen]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about the ship thing. I was thinking about it, and it was the word "convert" that made me realize just how similiar the two seemed (religion & ship).

It is a shame that TPTB went with the masses and started the whole vicious cycle. I don't think people would be as harsh about it if there wasn't a supposedly "canon" ship.

I like season 3... I used to think season 7 was my favorite, but now 3 is. Season 7 is just too shippy...

I like AUs... I doubt I could stick to the canon world in any fic I wrote, even if it was gen... I like the ability to make it "mine," to do what I want to do, and to fix what I see as mistakes or loose threads. My decision to do that is not limited to Stargate... I've done it with several movies and books I've read where I was unsatisfied with the way that something was done.

Ship makes SG-1 not about the team but about the leader and his would-be girlfriend, which is not what it was meant to be. I wish they had never gone down that route. I don't want to see ship on-screen, so I hope that they never resolve it.

Meanwhile, I have my AU land where I live quite happily.

Bold my emphasis.

Exactly, Stargate and Staragte SG-1 was never about ship - yes, Daniel fell in love with Sha'uri but let's put it this way: Dean Devlin and Ronald Emmerich could write romance, SG-1 TPTB can't.

If I want ship and soppy drama I'l watch a soap opera or some of the other typical sci-fi tv series out there. And I believe like you that it wouldn't be so harsh out there if there wasn't some 'supposed canon' ship. But they caved and the fandom still reeels witht he bloody aftereffects.

I also like AUs which is why I like fanfiction and original fiction so much. You can go your own way with 'what ifs' without the consequences that would result on the actual show. And to be frank, many authors out there can write better romance than TPTB could if their lives dpended on it - at least, at the moment.

Season 1 is my favourite season with Seasons 2 and 3 right there. The Fifth Race is my favourite episode of ALL seaosns and episodes!

[luthienberen]

JessM and fishyone

I have actually witnessed arguements on other forums where J/S shippers - or simply Carter fans - believe that Carter is perfect, when quite clearly she is not. It is scary the way that with some people you cannot critcise her - sorry, but NO ONE is perfect, Daniel included.

And I hate the way ship has been a direct result on the devolution on the other characters on the show: mainly Jack, Daniel and Carter. I understand that MS wished to 'beef up' his character (which I strongly disagree with: Daniel was never the solider, but the lingust cum archelogist, otherwsie what is so unique about him?), but otherwise?

Jack and Daniel's friendship disappeared, Carter was turned into MissNationalTreasure with her taking credit for other people's work (well, this she has been doing since the beginning of the show) and basically assuming Daniel's job. In an attempt to promote ship and how 'important' Carter was to Jack and vice versa they shoved away his best friend - the obstacle, because it is obvious that RDA and MS have more chemistry together than RDA and AT have in their roles.

Jack was mutated into an uncaring, dismissive idiot, whose only prupose in later Seasons seems to be letting off quips - and he is my favourite character so I highly resent, just as much as I resent what the stupid ship did to the show and Daniel's character (who also used to be my favourite, but in later Seasons was written and portrayed in a manner I dislike). But he had to be gotten rid of, and some of the J/S shippers must have realised his importance ot Jack and vice versa - after all, Daniel is considered to have taken too much prominece in S9 and earlier Seasons.

fishyone

Didn't you realise? Carter MUST be shipped, after all she is the girl, and is PERFECT! She and Jack share a COSMIC romance!!!

[fishyone]

Bold my emphasis.

Exactly, Stargate and Staragte SG-1 was never about ship - yes, Daniel fell in love with Sha'uri but let's put it this way: Dean Devlin and Ronald Emmerich could write romance, SG-1 TPTB can't.

If I want ship and soppy drama I'l watch a soap opera or some of the other typical sci-fi tv series out there. And I believe like you that it wouldn't be so harsh out there if there wasn't some 'supposed canon' ship. But they caved and the fandom still reeels witht he bloody aftereffects.

I also like AUs which is why I like fanfiction and original fiction so much. You can go your own way with 'what ifs' without the consequences that would result on the actual show. And to be frank, many authors out there can write better romance than TPTB could if their lives dpended on it - at least, at the moment.

Season 1 is my favourite season with Seasons 2 and 3 right there. The Fifth Race is my favourite episode of ALL seaosns and episodes!

Yeah, I have to say I like the Daniel/Sha'uri ship much better in the movie. It was done quite well in my opinion.

I don't mind romance in scifi if it's done well, but it seems to me that writers (not just in SG-1) don't really know what that is. The girl must be a beautiful "Barbie" who worries and moons over a hero... And I don't like watching that... It's boring, and I could write better romance at 11. Believe me, I did. And I'm ashamed of most of the stuff I wrote back then. I am glad that a thread like this exists because I don't like the flak I get for liking a "noncanon" ship, though that's not the only reason I dislike the s/j ship. I'll admit it may color my opinion, but that doesn't change what the ship has done.

AUs are great. If everyone could be satisfied with AUs, maybe they wouldn't have such heated debates about the ship stuff.

[luthienberen]

Yeah, I have to say I like the Daniel/Sha'uri ship much better in the movie. It was done quite well in my opinion.

I don't mind romance in scifi if it's done well, but it seems to me that writers (not just in SG-1) don't really know what that is. The girl must be a beautiful "Barbie" who worries and moons over a hero... And I don't like watching that... It's boring, and I could write better romance at 11. Believe me, I did. And I'm ashamed of most of the stuff I wrote back then. I am glad that a thread like this exists because I don't like the flak I get for liking a "noncanon" ship, though that's not the only reason I dislike the s/j ship. I'll admit it may color my opinion, but that doesn't change what the ship has done.

AUs are great. If everyone could be satisfied with AUs, maybe they wouldn't have such heated debates about the ship stuff.

The movie was the best. I admit I am a J/D shipper, but I do love Daniel/Sha'uri (much nicer name than Sha're) and Jack/Sara if I have to do het.

I like romance in sci-fi too, (Star Wars being a prime example), but SG-1's sole purpose wasn't ship, and the way it portrays Carter (before and after ship) certainly didn't make me like her, let alone want to see her in ship. Why couldn't any of the characters (main or not) be married? It is unrealistic that no one on the Team, or secondary characters have husbands or wives mentioned back home.

As for TV sci-fi romance ...? I'll watch BSG if I want soap opera or Star Trek TOS: at least the latter did it well with Kirk.

I wish everyone was satisfied with AUs too - would be a happier place for all. For, I don't want to see J/D together onscreen because it is impossible in US military reality AND it would fracture the team just as much as J/S ship has done.

I'll slash away in my own world.

[Dani347]

I am glad that a thread like this exists because I don't like the flak I get for liking a "noncanon" ship, though that's not the only reason I dislike the s/j ship. I'll admit it may color my opinion, but that doesn't change what the ship has done.

First, I don't get why anyone would be upset that another person likes a different ship. I mean, if it's non canon, they don't even have to see it on the show. So, is the mere knowledge that someone doesn't like the sanctioned ship and prefers their own pairing that painful?

Second, I really don't like the feeling that because you dislike ship for one reason, that it means that it's the only reason and people can box every opinion you have into that one thing. It's a phenomenon I've noticed in a lot of things, beyond ship. People zone in on one criticism, and suddenly every objection you make becomes, "well, you just don't like this because -insert one dimensional criticism" while ignoring that a person may have many reasons for not liking something.

On the flip side, why should someone have to justify their dislike of something? I mean, if someone says they don't like ship because they think Sam's hair always looks bad in the shippy episodes, so what?

[Frostfox]

In an attempt to promote ship and how 'important' Carter was to Jack and vice versa they shoved away his best friend - the obstacle, because it is obvious that RDA and MS have more chemistry together than RDA and AT have in their roles.

Oh, I think RDA and AT have chemistry too, I just hate the way the ship is written and find RDA's acting choices very strange when it comes to what is supposed to be the love of his life. He doesn't act like that when he and AT are doing non-relationship scenes. I just don't think they have romantic chemistry, which is nothing to be ashamed off, doesn't mean they are bad actors and might have as much to do with awkwardly written scenes as the acting. RDA's chemistry with the actress playing Kerry and the one who briefly played his wife was just so obvious and natural. Romantic stuff with AT just isn't.

Didn't you realise? Carter MUST be shipped, after all she is the girl, and is PERFECT! She and Jack share a COSMIC romance!!!

I have no patience for cosmic romance. I live and love in the real world, with real relationships which can be hard and painful and joyous and real.

'True Love' saccherin sweet and sickly and bad for your heart, is for poorly written romance novels and starry eyed young things who have never had a real relationship.

FF

[Dani347]

I have no patience for cosmic romance. I live and love in the real world, with real relationships which can be hard and painful and joyous and real.

'True Love' saccherin sweet and sickly and bad for your heart, is for poorly written romance novels and starry eyed young things who have never had a real relationship.

FF

The thing with cosmic romances is, it allows for lazy writing. Why bother thinking about what attracts these two? What makes them want to be together for the long haul? Because the answer is "they're meant to be" and there's no reason to go beyond that.

[Frostfox]

The thing with cosmic romances is, it allows for lazy writing. Why bother thinking about what attracts these two? What makes them want to be together for the long haul? Because the answer is "they're meant to be" and there's no reason to go beyond that.

And you don't have to think about the real practicalities such as - are they really compatible?

What if Sam wants kids but Jack doesn't? We know RDA is great with kids but after loosing his son and in his fifties, would Jack want another child?
What if Jack wants kids but Sam doesn't? She has a blossoming career, would she want to give that up to have children, a good fifty percent of my female friends who are Sam's age don't have kids and aren't planning on any.

That's just one example off the top of my head, of the practical problems that 'meant to be' doesn't take into consideration. And 'meant to be' is the limpest of excuses, reality just isn't like that, it's a bigger fantasy than the big round gate to other worlds.

FF