Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

Ah yes, Mr "Sound Mysterious To Keep 'em Guessing Because I Actually Have No Clues Myself" Mallozzi......and you won't believe how long I struggled to make that clean and PG for GW.... Deeds xx

Oh, I'd believe it ...

I have nothing against shippers who want to believe in their pairing, but I also don't understand the need for "confirmation." Believe whatever you want. I choose to put my fingers in my ears and hum loudly.

I don't understand it either. Baffling.

Wait .... is that jckfan I can hear going lalalalalalalala like a certain colonel/general?!

[Frostfox]

FF ... I've lost the direct link to Destina's fic. It's title is Descant and it's tagged under her fic at her LJ. Sorry that's a bit vague. It's definitely worth a read.

I'll find it, ta.

It seems everyone's favourite PTB (not) is back to his non-answering, stringing-along ways.

From JM's blog: Majorsal writes: “the writers have made huge and (wonderfully to me) in-your-face ships for SGU, but with sam/jack, we still don’t know if they’re together… will this change in the future?”

Answer: Ideally, yes.

I think the writers have done a bang-up job of allowing us all to take what we want from the Jack/Sam situation. Shippers can believe they're together and we can believe they're not but are pursuing happy, fulfilling lives.

Ideally, we'll never find out.

Ideally TPTB would stop the bait and switch, they had ten plus years of time to establish Jack and Sam in a relationship, if it really was important to SG1 they would have done it, unequivocally and unambiguously.
They didn't, it wasn't that important to SG1, end of story.
But I wish they would stop teasing the fans of S/J, it borders on cruelty (though, it could be argued that they are also daft to put up with the rubbish fed to them to keep them on the hook).

Ah yes, Mr "Sound Mysterious To Keep 'em Guessing Because I Actually Have No Clues Myself" Mallozzi......and you won't believe how long I struggled to make that clean and PG for GW....


Enough already with the guesswork, enough already with the silly veiled hints, enough already with the desperate pleas for ship (ANY ships)...let us all enjoy our pairings in the fandom how WE want to and without antagonising or bothering those of any other....leave me in my happy world of [insert favoured pairing here] and shut up about it!....*snerk*....


Deeds xx

I have nothing against shippers who want to believe in their pairing, but I also don't understand the need for "confirmation." Believe whatever you want. I choose to put my fingers in my ears and hum loudly.

Oh, I'd believe it ...

I don't understand it either. Baffling.

Wait .... is that jckfan I can hear going lalalalalalalala like a certain colonel/general?!

My enjoyment of SG1 has never been dependent on what other people think or what other people enjoy, I like what I like and I don't insist that the rest of the world conform to my view of it.

As my Trek friends would say, IDIC.

FF

[jckfan55]

Sam: So any progress on a cure?
Janet: I can't figure it out. the big problem is that it seems to make people see what they *want* to see so they don't want to be cured.

[Frostfox]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7475/samfrozenlr7.jpg

Sam: So any progress on a cure?
Janet: I can't figure it out. the big problem is that it seems to make people see what they *want* to see so they don't want to be cured.

LOL! Janet is made of awesome!
I have faith she will find the cure, bless her.

FF

[jdjunkie]

SPOILERS FOR STARGATE UNIVERSE, INCURSION PART I

Spoiler:

Having watched the ep, which featured a couple of brief scenes with Jack and Sam, I'm happy to report no sign of shippiness. Nada. Zip. Zilch. In a nice moment, Jack called her Sam rather than Carter, but it served only to illustrate a good CO's empathy and sympathy for an officer who had just made a very difficult command decision. No goo-goo eyes or "Pop the kettle on, I'll be home for tea." Which was nice.

[Frostfox]

SPOILERS FOR STARGATE UNIVERSE, INCURSION PART I

Spoiler:

Having watched the ep, which featured a couple of brief scenes with Jack and Sam, I'm happy to report no sign of shippiness. Nada. Zip. Zilch. In a nice moment, Jack called her Sam rather than Carter, but it served only to illustrate a good CO's empathy and sympathy for an officer who had just made a very difficult command decision. No goo-goo eyes or "Pop the kettle on, I'll be home for tea." Which was nice.

Thank you for watching and letting us know.

Spoiler:

Jack as Sam's CO is always worth air time, it's their strongest point, particularly in combination with good, teamy, friendship.

SGU is being promoted as being more realistic than the previous shows, clearly the old S/J props; the syrupy music, the goo-goo eyes, the rest of the overblown S/J stupidity and histrionics, would stand out like a sore thumb (even more so than it did in SG1!) and be a laughing stock and I so don't want that for our wonderful characters.

FF

[jckfan55]

^well, that's one of the more positive things I've heard about SGU--no goo goo eyes.

[Frostfox]

^well, that's one of the more positive things I've heard about SGU--no goo goo eyes.

I haven't seen it, I might like it. In many ways, it's more my kind of show than SG1. SG1 won me over with teamy goodness and four stunning actors.

FF

[Khentkawes]

SPOILERS FOR STARGATE UNIVERSE, INCURSION PART I

Spoiler:

Having watched the ep, which featured a couple of brief scenes with Jack and Sam, I'm happy to report no sign of shippiness. Nada. Zip. Zilch. In a nice moment, Jack called her Sam rather than Carter, but it served only to illustrate a good CO's empathy and sympathy for an officer who had just made a very difficult command decision. No goo-goo eyes or "Pop the kettle on, I'll be home for tea." Which was nice.

Yep. I noticed that. Although,

Spoiler:

I still had a knee-jerk reaction to Jack calling her "Sam." But you're right, it was completely appropriate in the context. It's just that, given my history with the ship, it still made me cringe. It's just a personal thing for me, but it was quickly forgotten anyway.

SGU is being promoted as being more realistic than the previous shows, clearly the old S/J props; the syrupy music, the goo-goo eyes, the rest of the overblown S/J stupidity and histrionics, would stand out like a sore thumb (even more so than it did in SG1!) and be a laughing stock and I so don't want that for our wonderful characters.

Somewhat detailed spoilers for SGU (and comparison to Sam/Jack. It's on-topic. I promise!):

Spoiler:

On the topic of realism in SGU, I personally love that Young/TJ is essentially the anti-Sam/Jack pairing. You take a loyal, decent, and somewhat rough around the edges CO (who has done some "damned distasteful things," I might note) and a young, up-and-coming blonde officer under his command and you try to pair them up. It's the same scenario as Jack and Sam. Except TJ is a medic instead of a scientist. But still, the comparison essentially works. Then the writers show us what happens when these two do break the frat regs. And the results are disastrous on multiple levels. I don't support Young/TJ as a pairing (because I think it's been proven that their relationship was nothing but a huge mistake), but I support the storyline because I find it realistic. This is how it would go down if Sam and Jack had broken the frat regs early in their relationship. It would be messy and there would be collateral damage, and that's what we see in SGU. There's no soft focus, syrupy music, and romantic cliches. Sure, there are the angsty looks, but none of the gooy-eyes. They are more looks of "I'm attracted to you on certain levels, but I think you're a moron and I can't believe I was stupid enough to actually sleep with you." It's uncomfortable, it's angsty, it's messy... but it's definitely not the stereotypical cheesiness we got from Sam/Jack.

[jdjunkie]

^well, that's one of the more positive things I've heard about SGU--no goo goo eyes.

Well, it's pretty much the only positive thing about the show you'll ever hear from me, derivative, dull, unlikeable and largely unwatchable mess that it is. In my view, that it is, fwiw.

Spoilery response to Khentkawes' SGU comments ahoy

Spoiler:

I totally hear you about the knee-jerk response to hearing Jack call Carter 'Sam.' The one I really dislike in SG-1 was when illusion-Jack called her Samantha in Grace. Something quite ... squicky about that for me. Thankfully, it wasn't real! Definitely the saving grace in Incursion was the context, and the fact that Sam responded with 'Sir,' which, again, was absolutely appropriate. There was no hint of intimacy or anything else going on. It was a nice beat.

With regard to TJ/Young and Sam/Jack ... I haven't seen enough to make any kind of comparsion, but I'm very happy to hear your take on it, as I suspect it would match my own. It's like they've dredged up Sam and Jack and decided to see where they could have taken them, thanks to the all-new, gritty-as-all-get-out, not-your-daddy's-stargate. I greatly disliked what they did with Jack/Sam in SG-1, but thank heavens they were not moved to do anything like TJ/Young with them because I would have disliked that even more. Glad to hear of the absence of goo-goo eyes and syrupy cliche-ridden storyline. A viewer can only take so much cheesiness in one viewing lifetime.

[discodiva]

Well I've stuck with SGU right through and will do until the final episode airs in the UK next week.....it ebbs and flows....some of it is quite good, some of it is neither good nor bad, some of it is dire - and that goes for the storylines, the acting, the characters and the camerawork.....it most certainly has not and will not hold my attention and devotion to it like SG-1 has all these years, but I'm glad I gave it a chance....

The scene between O'Neill and Carter was professional, short and mercifully sap-free.....the scenes between O'Neill and Jackson in the previous episode was pure vintage Jack and Daniel......it was a nice touch for both episodes that the SG-1 characters kept true to the long-running series that I've loved for so long and it was really nice to see Sam and Jack as they used to be, before all the oh-so-aptly named "goo goo eyes" took over!...


Deeds xx

[jdjunkie]

You're a better man than I Deeds ... I gave SGU six full eps before I decided it wasn't really for me, which was a shame because I was really hoping it would be. I need to be invested in characters for me to stick with a show. With SG-1, I got that in spades within the first few eps I saw. Jack drew me, Daniel made me fall in love with him, Jack and Daniel delighted me, and the team just thrilled me. I cared about them from the get-go. I came to the conclusion with SGU that I didn't care if The Destineers flew right into the sun (as long as Jack, Daniel or Sam weren't on board at the time. ) Just not for me, but all power the elbow of those who are loving it.

Very glad Incursion was goo-goo free zone. I doubt we'll ever be subjected to that in the Gateverse again. Thankfully.

And big ole YES to Jack and Daniel in Subversion

Spoiler:

Of course Jack would ask his most trusted friend to lead an important highly sensitive surveillance op. It made perfect sense, as JM himself said, and it's not often I agree with him! Classic J and D indeed.

[Frostfox]

Yep. I noticed that. Although,

Spoiler:

I still had a knee-jerk reaction to Jack calling her "Sam." But you're right, it was completely appropriate in the context. It's just that, given my history with the ship, it still made me cringe. It's just a personal thing for me, but it was quickly forgotten anyway.

Somewhat detailed spoilers for SGU (and comparison to Sam/Jack. It's on-topic. I promise!):

Spoiler:

On the topic of realism in SGU, I personally love that Young/TJ is essentially the anti-Sam/Jack pairing. You take a loyal, decent, and somewhat rough around the edges CO (who has done some "damned distasteful things," I might note) and a young, up-and-coming blonde officer under his command and you try to pair them up. It's the same scenario as Jack and Sam. Except TJ is a medic instead of a scientist. But still, the comparison essentially works. Then the writers show us what happens when these two do break the frat regs. And the results are disastrous on multiple levels. I don't support Young/TJ as a pairing (because I think it's been proven that their relationship was nothing but a huge mistake), but I support the storyline because I find it realistic. This is how it would go down if Sam and Jack had broken the frat regs early in their relationship. It would be messy and there would be collateral damage, and that's what we see in SGU. There's no soft focus, syrupy music, and romantic cliches. Sure, there are the angsty looks, but none of the gooy-eyes. They are more looks of "I'm attracted to you on certain levels, but I think you're a moron and I can't believe I was stupid enough to actually sleep with you." It's uncomfortable, it's angsty, it's messy... but it's definitely not the stereotypical cheesiness we got from Sam/Jack.

One of the SG1 producers recently called the relationships on SG1 'comic book', Sam and Sir most certainly falls into that but, funnily enough, as we've all noticed, the friendships on the show were so much more subtle and believable than the pathetic attempts at romance.

Well, it's pretty much the only positive thing about the show you'll ever hear from me, derivative, dull, unlikeable and largely unwatchable mess that it is. In my view, that it is, fwiw.

Spoilery response to Khentkawes' SGU comments ahoy

Spoiler:

I totally hear you about the knee-jerk response to hearing Jack call Carter 'Sam.' The one I really dislike in SG-1 was when illusion-Jack called her Samantha in Grace. Something quite ... squicky about that for me. Thankfully, it wasn't real! Definitely the saving grace in Incursion was the context, and the fact that Sam responded with 'Sir,' which, again, was absolutely appropriate. There was no hint of intimacy or anything else going on. It was a nice beat.

With regard to TJ/Young and Sam/Jack ... I haven't seen enough to make any kind of comparsion, but I'm very happy to hear your take on it, as I suspect it would match my own. It's like they've dredged up Sam and Jack and decided to see where they could have taken them, thanks to the all-new, gritty-as-all-get-out, not-your-daddy's-stargate. I greatly disliked what they did with Jack/Sam in SG-1, but thank heavens they were not moved to do anything like TJ/Young with them because I would have disliked that even more. Glad to hear of the absence of goo-goo eyes and syrupy cliche-ridden storyline. A viewer can only take so much cheesiness in one viewing lifetime.

Heh, Sam/Jack, purveyors of cheesiness to Stargate since, oh, 1997?

Well I've stuck with SGU right through and will do until the final episode airs in the UK next week.....it ebbs and flows....some of it is quite good, some of it is neither good nor bad, some of it is dire - and that goes for the storylines, the acting, the characters and the camerawork.....it most certainly has not and will not hold my attention and devotion to it like SG-1 has all these years, but I'm glad I gave it a chance....

The scene between O'Neill and Carter was professional, short and mercifully sap-free.....the scenes between O'Neill and Jackson in the previous episode was pure vintage Jack and Daniel......it was a nice touch for both episodes that the SG-1 characters kept true to the long-running series that I've loved for so long and it was really nice to see Sam and Jack as they used to be, before all the oh-so-aptly named "goo goo eyes" took over!...

Deeds xx

I seem to remember that the last time we saw them together on SG1, in The Shroud, they were refreshingly un-gooey and back to being Sam and Jack, rather than our little plot massacring lovebirds.

You're a better man than I Deeds ... I gave SGU six full eps before I decided it wasn't really for me, which was a shame because I was really hoping it would be. I need to be invested in characters for me to stick with a show. With SG-1, I got that in spades within the first few eps I saw. Jack drew me, Daniel made me fall in love with him, Jack and Daniel delighted me, and the team just thrilled me. I cared about them from the get-go. I came to the conclusion with SGU that I didn't care if The Destineers flew right into the sun (as long as Jack, Daniel or Sam weren't on board at the time. ) Just not for me, but all power the elbow of those who are loving it.

Very glad Incursion was goo-goo free zone. I doubt we'll ever be subjected to that in the Gateverse again. Thankfully.

And big ole YES to Jack and Daniel in Subversion

Spoiler:

Of course Jack would ask his most trusted friend to lead an important highly sensitive surveillance op. It made perfect sense, as JM himself said, and it's not often I agree with him! Classic J and D indeed.

It's proof positive, yet again, that the romantic props aren't necessary, Sam and Jack can stand on their own, be interesting and sympathetic characters without the albatross of 'ship' dragging them down.

FF

[jckfan55]

One of the SG1 producers recently called the relationships on SG1 'comic book', Sam and Sir most certainly falls into that but, funnily enough, as we've all noticed, the friendships on the show were so much more subtle and believable than the pathetic attempts at romance.

I have found it disappointing for several years to read certain PTB disparaging their own show. The team are "screw ups"; the show is a "comedy" and now "comic book relationships." As you said, the friendships & team bond were very believable even while the situations they were in were part of an SF world. Somehow they managed to write friendships & and I also have to give major credit to the actors for bringing that believability to the screen. One of the things they did well is that even though the show was basically set up for our heroes to get out of whatever situation they were in by the end of the episode, you cared about them and *how* they got out of the situation.

As jdjunkie says, I don't really care if the "destineers fly into the sun". I'm sure the actors are fine, but it just doesn't connect with me.

[Frostfox]

I have found it disappointing for several years to read certain PTB disparaging their own show. The team are "screw ups"; the show is a "comedy" and now "comic book relationships." As you said, the friendships & team bond were very believable even while the situations they were in were part of an SF world. Somehow they managed to write friendships & and I also have to give major credit to the actors for bringing that believability to the screen. One of the things they did well is that even though the show was basically set up for our heroes to get out of whatever situation they were in by the end of the episode, you cared about them and *how* they got out of the situation.

As jdjunkie says, I don't really care if the "destineers fly into the sun". I'm sure the actors are fine, but it just doesn't connect with me.

In some ways I get it. As an artist, I look back on earlier work I've done and sometimes I see the flaws in older pieces more clearly than the good. But I am the sole creator of the work (sometimes there is external input from editors or art directors or patrons) and SG1 is a collaborative effort taking the talents of many people.
Also, SG1 isn't high art, it's not Proust. It doesn't pretend to be. It did what it did very well or it wouldn't have lasted for 10 years.
If TPTB want to go on and do something different, something more serious, that's their prerogative, but they owe it to all the rest of the cast and crew not to make derogatory comments about their previous work.

I can be highly, highly critical about their inability to write a convincing romance, but I am being critical about a single aspect of the show and I'll freely say when they get things right.

Sam/Jack? Still juvenile, trite, rubbish.

FF