Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Aragon101]

I haven't watched it for years, I didn't think it was a very good episode, and not only due to the Sam and Sir melodrama. It was the start of the slipper slope of removing all Sam/AT's plot lines, leaving only her attempt at romance with Jack. Sad.
And I liked Martuf.



Ah, but in case it ever slips your mind, TPTB will spend the next 8 years rubbing your nose in the fact that his love for Sam is special. Much more special than anything he shares with anyone else. Insert tinkly music here, just in case anyone misses their point.







Ah, no, it didn't come with tinkly piano music, close ups of Teal'c huge, swooning, eyes or a tub of Vaseline on the lens.
So, no not true love which moves the stars.

Just good old fashioned camaraderie and team friend ship. Nothing important.

FF

I wonder, what inspirations did the writers who wanted Sam/Jack have? Where did THEY get their ideas? I'm curious since BW recently called SG1 and SGA "Comic Book Style" adventures (it was worded almost derisively)

[Frostfox]

I wonder, what inspirations did the writers who wanted Sam/Jack have? Where did THEY get their ideas? I'm curious since BW recently called SG1 and SGA "Comic Book Style" adventures (it was worded almost derisively)

Humph, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Dave Sim, Frank Miller, Neil Gaiman, Los Bros Hernandez, Garth Ennis, Terry Moore, Jack Kirby, Bill Willingham, Jeph Loeb, Will Eisner, my darling, Chris Claremont, all off the top of my head, can all write a more convincing relationship than TPTB. Some of them can write a superhero comic with more genuine emotion in four colour, 24 pages than Sam and Jack managed in ten seasons of stilted dialogue, soft focus close ups and tinkly piano cues.
Their inspiration seems more from trashy romance books or sad daytime TV soaps than anything else.

FF

[Aragon101]

Humph, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Dave Sim, Frank Miller, Neil Gaiman, Los Bros Hernandez, Garth Ennis, Terry Moore, Jack Kirby, Bill Willingham, Jeph Loeb, Will Eisner, my darling, Chris Claremont, all off the top of my head, can all write a more convincing relationship than TPTB. Some of them can write a superhero comic with more genuine emotion in four colour, 24 pages than Sam and Jack managed in ten seasons of stilted dialogue, soft focus close ups and tinkly piano cues.
Their inspiration seems more from trashy romance books or sad daytime TV soaps than anything else.

FF

lol that was kinda my point. Comic books are given a bad rep but the good ones really are above and beyond what you'd see on TV.

If i ever go to a Con with BW and JM, i'll directly ask "What were your inspirations for the Sam/Jack relationship?"

Damn, now i'm curious.

[jdjunkie]

Jack was pretty worked up in Nemesis when Teal'c ran out of air. Was that true love?

Judging by the writers' criteria ... yes.

[Frostfox]

lol that was kinda my point. Comic books are given a bad rep but the good ones really are above and beyond what you'd see on TV.

If i ever go to a Con with BW and JM, i'll directly ask "What were your inspirations for the Sam/Jack relationship?"

Damn, now i'm curious.

Comics have come a long way since Kirby and Lee et al and the 'BOP!' 'BANG!' 'WOW!!!!' 1950's and 60's. Like all media, they have grown and matured, as has the expectations of their audience. I was reading in the late 70's and the 80's when the talent really started pushing the boundaries of what made a comic (thinking of Moore and the Brit influx, proudly). This is talking about UK and US comics only, we were decades behind Eastern and European comics, Japan, Italy, Spain, France were way in front on the sophistication scale.
Had Sam/Jack been in a 1970's TV show (oh, I dunno, Space 1999?) it would have fitted fine and would have been a perfectly acceptable example of a romance. By the time we get to the 1990's, the audience is expecting something rather more mature than teenage pining and uncomfortable silences from adult characters. A planned character arc, for a start. Constant, believable characterisation for another. The ability to write a pairing with balance and a deft touch, without damaging the core show and all the other interactions in pursuit of a not particularly compelling romantic entanglement. Non of which we got.

FF

[jckfan55]

I just find the idea that a man and a woman working together must be paired off as so false. One of my best work friends is a guy and we're not romantic in the least. We're more like Sam and Daniel. (If only I looked as good as Sam! )

[Frostfox]

I just find the idea that a man and a woman working together must be paired off as so false. One of my best work friends is a guy and we're not romantic in the least. We're more like Sam and Daniel. (If only I looked as good as Sam! )

It's a TV trope and a really boring one at that. TV execs are so limited and closed minded in what they think an audience wants. Relationships have to fit the stereotype, main man must be paired with lead woman, like animals lined up two by two into the ark. No imagination, no spark of individuality, dull, dull, dull.
No wonder it led to such a dull and lackluster attempt at a romance.
You have to be working quite hard to make Jack/RDA and SC/AT look dull. Very hard. But they managed it. Over and over again. Killed plot momentum and pacing stone dead on some occasions and damaging two of their lead characters in the process.
You do have to wonder why?

FF

[jckfan55]

It would be fun to rewrite some of those scenes into "normal" moments. Such as the one in Evolution where Jack comes into Sam's lab to tell her he's going to get Daniel.

Jack: They have an idea where Daniel is.
Sam: Great. Are you going after him?
Jack: Yep.
Sam: Good. I wish I could go, but we need to go after the Anubis warrior...
Jack: I'll get him. Watch your back.
Sam: Tell Daniel hi when you find him.

[Frostfox]

It would be fun to rewrite some of those scenes into "normal" moments. Such as the one in Evolution where Jack comes into Sam's lab to tell her he's going to get Daniel.

Jack: They have an idea where Daniel is.
Sam: Great. Are you going after him?
Jack: Yep.
Sam: Good. I wish I could go, but we need to go after the Anubis warrior...
Jack: I'll get him. Watch your back.
Sam: Tell Daniel hi when you find him.

In that particular case, I don't think the script was at fault, this was abysmal and dreadful directing.

This is the transcript from GW
Scene: Carter's Lab

Sam is fiddling with something when Jack walks in.

CARTER: Sir?

O'NEILL: I'm going after Daniel.

CARTER: Good.

O'NEILL: This other mission.

CARTER: Shouldn't be a problem Sir. When do you leave?

O'NEILL: Now.

CARTER: Good luck.

O'NEILL: You too.

He leaves.

Not exactly sparkling but, as scripted, fine.

It was TPTB's insistence on soft focus, deeply meaningful looks between our little love birds which made the scene so bilious. It turned a straightforward scene into something nasty.
Made it something about Sam and Sir to the exclusion of Team SG1.
How much more important it was that Sam was going out there to risk her National Treasure, Beloved Beyond All Others In Existence tush, without her soulmate to protect her.
He, poor, lovelorn thing, had to go and rescue that other pesky character, who, inconsiderately had got himself captured and was preventing Jack from infusing his macho hormones in protection of delicate and Beloved Beyond All Others little Sam.

Which is just wrong on so many levels it isn't funny.

Sam is perfectly capable of looking after herself and leading a team without the need for Jack. What does this scene say about Jack's faith in his 2IC and her abilities?
Sam is going with her father and two 100+ year old warriors. What does this directing of the scene say about his faith in Teal'c and Bra'tac?
Daniel was doing SG1 business, in a dangerous part of the world with only another scientist for back up.
Jack is first and foremost an officer in the USAF, he knows exactly how capable Sam is, he knows how capable Daniel and Teal'c are. They are his team, all four of them. Not two little love birds and those other two pesky gooseberries TPTB have intruding on their grand love story. Team. All four of them.

Why, yes, this scene is still a hot button for me. How did you guess?

FF

[jckfan55]

Exactly true. Now, if Jack was being pulled away by the Pentagon to do some useless thing he might be ticked at having to leave the team in the lurch--even though he knows they're competent he wouldn't want to stick them with a dangerous mission without being there to help---but that wasn't this.

How could we "fix" D&C while keeping the za'tarc story? what would be the red herring that makes them think Sam and/or Jack are za'tarcs?

[Aragon101]

Exactly true. Now, if Jack was being pulled away by the Pentagon to do some useless thing he might be ticked at having to leave the team in the lurch--even though he knows they're competent he wouldn't want to stick them with a dangerous mission without being there to help---but that wasn't this.

How could we "fix" D&C while keeping the za'tarc story? what would be the red herring that makes them think Sam and/or Jack are za'tarcs?

I forget, was this before or after Beneath the Surface?

And what about the time they were dead on the Nox Planet? Apophis was there.

Was this before or after Seth?

[Frostfox]

Exactly true. Now, if Jack was being pulled away by the Pentagon to do some useless thing he might be ticked at having to leave the team in the lurch--even though he knows they're competent he wouldn't want to stick them with a dangerous mission without being there to help---but that wasn't this.

Precisely, and the important line is the bolded one - The Team. Not 'The little woman', Sam Carter, so helpless and in need of his protection that two Jaffa warriors and her own father can't look after her. Made me gag with fury.
And you know the saddest thing? It was Sam and Jack's characters and integrity which suffered the most.
Teal'c had to wait until they tried to pair him with a neighbour young enough to be his great-great-great granddaughter and incidentally forgot about his Jaffa wife/girlfriend and Daniel until they velcroed Vala to his side.
Whoever thought letting these writers and directors attempt romance needed their head examining.

How could we "fix" D&C while keeping the za'tarc story? what would be the red herring that makes them think Sam and/or Jack are za'tarcs?

I think Aragon has your answer, putting it after Beneath the Surface would have worked, those memory stamps would no doubt have caused the za'tac detector fits.
In truth, it wasn't a very strong plot point really. An excuse to kill a few more SGC red shirts and to ramp up Sam and Sir melodrama, how many of the audience do you think really believed, even for a moment, that two of the principal characters would be compromised in that way?

DS9 character wimbling

Spoiler:

DS9 did a character re-write for Bashir, over his genetic engineering, which was a huge plot point, pivotal to his arc, and, having upset the character's status quo, went on to do a pretty convincing possible traitor story too. Which worked because they had had him as a traitor in an earlier episode (he had been replaced for several episodes by a Changeling) so they had spread the seeds of doubt.
But DS9 was considerably more subtle and better plotted than SG1. And bolder; you could believe that they would do that to the character. These were TPTB who went on to do Battlestar Galactica, and they were just starting to play about with concepts of identity and the horror of something which can mimic human but isn't.
The nearest SG1's PTB got was having Sam and Jack mimicking real human emotions but badly

I forget, was this before or after Beneath the Surface?

And what about the time they were dead on the Nox Planet? Apophis was there.

Was this before or after Seth?

Any and all of the above. Doesn't take much effort to think of suitable examples.

D&C was supposed to clear the air; they had intended to drop the idea of a romance after this but, instead they kept going back to it, like a pustule never allowed to scab over. And just as attractive. Every time you hope they had forgotten the sorry affair, they had to pick it open again.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Exactly true. Now, if Jack was being pulled away by the Pentagon to do some useless thing he might be ticked at having to leave the team in the lurch--even though he knows they're competent he wouldn't want to stick them with a dangerous mission without being there to help---but that wasn't this.

How could we "fix" D&C while keeping the za'tarc story? what would be the red herring that makes them think Sam and/or Jack are za'tarcs?

Yes, I think Aragon has the best idea. Slot it after Beneath the Surface. All that memory stamping would play havoc with the mind and lead to all sorts of emotional confusion.

I remember being completely blindsided by D&C. I actually said "Where the heck did that come from?" after the cringe-worthy za'tarc test. Jack had been shown many times to care about all his "kids" far more than he should. By rights, the team should have broken up when they all became over-invested.

But no, it had to be hammered home that his feeeelings for Sam were speshul and above all others, when every indication before that showed that they weren't. She was a valued, respected colleague whom I'm quite sure he looked on with affection.

Not super special wub.

I maintain to this day that he's still in love with Sara. The woman he crawled across a desert for. Makes much more sense than Sam and Sir, that's for sure.

[jckfan55]

Yes, I think Aragon has the best idea. Slot it after Beneath the Surface. All that memory stamping would play havoc with the mind and lead to all sorts of emotional confusion.

that would definitely work for me.

I remember being completely blindsided by D&C. I actually said "Where the heck did that come from?" after the cringe-worthy za'tarc test. Jack had been shown many times to care about all his "kids" far more than he should. By rights, the team should have broken up when they all became over-invested.

But no, it had to be hammered home that his feeeelings for Sam were speshul and above all others, when every indication before that showed that they weren't. She was a valued, respected colleague whom I'm quite sure he looked on with affection.

Right. He cared about Sam the same way they all cared about each other.

I maintain to this day that he's still in love with Sara. The woman he crawled across a desert for. Makes much more sense than Sam and Sir, that's for sure.

I recently rewatched Cold Lazarus and yes, they were good together. I was rooting for them to reconcile.

[Aragon101]

that would definitely work for me.


Right. He cared about Sam the same way they all cared about each other.


I recently rewatched Cold Lazarus and yes, they were good together. I was rooting for them to reconcile.

But butbutbut... that would mean.. Sam/Jack isn't a OTP! [/snark]

Seriously, they had a great story there especially since Sara sort of found out that Jack was into some heavy stuff, it would have been awesome to see Jack have to struggle to regain his life, and Sam could easily have been a friend and support for him. That's what friends/teammates do right?

I have no issues with a main/main lead relationship, but if it takes over the show, then it's a problem Especially when you have only a few leads anyway like in SG1 and it's highly noticeable that the focus is there.

Take DS9 or B5 for instance, both had comparitively large casts, but you never really got the feeling they were focusing on one or the other unless the episode was clearly just about them. And even then, you usually got progression with the other characters as well. With Sam/Jack, you clearly see the show became about THEM and not in an individual sense either. It's about their relationship or rather lack there of.

I'm reminded of the scene where Sam's complaining about life, and Daniel can't tell if she's talking about someone else or herself. It's like even Daniel's going "WTF? Where did THAT come from?"