Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

I mostly agree with hlndncr, but not quite.

You often say that, but I don't think we disagree at all--in this case.

[Petra]

You often say that, but I don't think we disagree at all--in this case.

Seriously? I haven't realised...

But in my own head I explain it as further demonstrating the very different character of Kanan and the overall philosophy of the Tok'ra. We know the Tok'ra would die rather than be captured (see for example Deadman Switch), and Kanan would certainly have information that he would not want falling into Baal's hands. So to a certain extent his actions are self-sacrificing; he's acting for the greater good of the Tok'ra. I don't think he did it because he believed there was another host near at hand. I'm convinced he's dead.

In this case I completely agree with the above...

But I also think he shows some really poor judgment. He leaves Shallan in the first place because he puts his mission ahead of her. But then he goes back in part because he realizes Jack would never leave anyone (and especially not the woman he loves) behind. But he isn't capable of following through. In the end he makes the same choice twice. Leave to (possibly) save himself and (maybe) to protect the other Tok'ra and let Shallan (and in the second instance, Jack also) deal with the consequences of his actions.

...but I disagree with this part (hence the "mostly but not quite" part ). I don't think he showed poor judgement and I don't think the thought of saving himself even crossed his mind. Jack's influence was enough to get him to try to fix his mistake but it wasn't enough to stop his default reaction when s*** hit the fan - protect the Tok'ra cause at all costs.

[hlndncr]

...but I disagree with this part (hence the "mostly but not quite" part ). I don't think he showed poor judgement and I don't think the thought of saving himself even crossed his mind. Jack's influence was enough to get him to try to fix his mistake but it wasn't enough to stop his default reaction when s*** hit the fan - protect the Tok'ra cause at all costs.

OK, well I still think he showed a lot of poor judgment, but I do agree with you that when he got in trouble he went back to his default reactions.

Help me out here. I'm really, really trying to agree with you.

[Cagranosalis]

Ooooh,, sorry, I have only just realised I was supposed to do Shadow Play which is today and I have been so busy elsewhere I completely forgot it's my turn!

I will do it first thing tomorrow. Promise. Guides honour. Cross my heart etc. etc.

Bad shipper.... bad, bad shipper.

[Cagranosalis]

Banner by Regularamanda

Synopsis

Some folks from Kelowna show up wanting the SGC’s help... one of them is Al, forcing me to wonder if Sam Beckett isn’t really hiding inside Jack’s body (thus explaining how he’s able to function so well so soon after his repeated torture/death and reincarnation at the hands to Ba’al). That makes, sense, right?
After that it all gets a bit dull and political – so much so that even the slightly exciting musical score doesn’t stop me from zoning out for the next thirty odd minutes. Bit of a shame, that, because it’s actually quite an important story, development wise for Jonas, and for the Kelownans in general.
Then, there’s a really exciting 40 second chase sequence some running around warehouses and, at the end, we find out that the one decent thing SG-1 might hope to gain for all this is a product of a deluded mind. Huh! Well at least they got a smidgeon of naquadria for their trouble.


Review

I know why it is I find this episode so dull. It’s the grey. Grey buildings, grey walls, grey people... urgh! Well that and the fact there's a lot of talky stuff and not much action, and the talky stuff isn't even really fate-of SG-1 or the SGC so it's not really that gripping. It’s a shame really because, as I said, it’s incredibly important to the development of the Kelownan storyline and we do revisit that a couple of times after this so the political stuff becomes fairly important.

There’s also some nice character beats, particularly for Jack who is still smarting over the way these people were willing to let Daniel take the fall for their mistakes but especially for Jonas. Once again, Corin Nemec acts his little socks off. The scene near the start when he first sees his old professor come through the Stargate; his expression there as he’s recalling to Jack how he knew him is just lovely. I remember the first time I saw this, when he confronts Dr Kieran in the alleyway and says “You’re being followed” how awfully wooden that scene was and how jarring it seemed compared to his normal acting. But then, it makes sense at the end.
I also like the way they maintain the idea that the resistance is real right up to the end. When Dr Kieran falls, we cut directly to the SGC and Jonas is there but there’s no exposition about how or why he fell, or how he was found; we’re left to assume Jonas really was there. It’s only later in the alleyway with Sam, Jack and Teal’c tracking the naquardria that Sam says “this is where he was found” and you start to get a hint all is not quite right. I really like that. I am sure there’ll be an equal division between those who sussed it out and those who didn’t though.


Sam & Jack

You need super strength, heavy duty, factor 9bazillion ship-tinted glasses to catch any here. The only significant moment I can find anywhere is near the beginning where Jack is ready to tell the Kelownans to shove off and Sam points out that they do still need the naquadria and he relents and agrees.

[josiane]

Good job with a tough episode, Cags - I agree that Shadow Play is not exactly SG1's most gripping hour I do like the reveal of it, and how when you get to the end you do want to go back and watch it again to sort out the reality from the fantasy, but like you, that's pretty much it for this one

[hlndncr]

Shadow Play

I got to agree with Cags, this episode is boring. I usually like political stuff, but there really is absolutely no action in this, except that little chase scene in the alley, and none of the politics has any larger implications for the SG1 universe; so it all seems rather pointless.

But I also agree that Corin Nemic does an amazing job. I was too bored to figure out what was really going on before the reveal, but watching the episode again I can see all the subtle ways the audience was "clued" in. Not the least of which was the way Corin changed his body language and posture when he was a hullucination (not just stiff and wooden, but also more stern and distant). I really am coming to love Jonas (and Corin) and I think I'm going to miss them a lot more after we get through with this season.

Cags makes a good point about seeing absolutely no repercussions from Abyss, which does feel very artificial. But I would like to point out one moment when Jack is in Hammond's office and the General tells Jack he sounds like Dr. Jackson. When Jack mentions that they spent some time together, I think for Jack that reference isn't just their association before Daniel's ascension; Jack has recently spent some time with Daniel (being reminded that he is a better person than Jack believes himself to be), and now Jack is the one making the moral arguments against acquiring technology at the cost of interfering with a warring civilization where they could make things worse.

Sam and Jack
Now I'm going to put on my super ship glasses (oh, the world looks so pretty; all I see is love) and try to find what I can. Sam and Jack are sitting next to one another at all the briefings and the negotiations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a period of time when that wasn't happening, right? There is still some residual tension when they discuss the issue of acquiring the naquadriah, ala Meridian, because of what happened with Daniel. But when they are facing the Kelownans together, they are really together (practically finishing each other's sentences). And I notice that Jack sits back and lets Sam take the lead much of the time. This is probably due in part to his own negative feelings toward the Kelownans and his desire to not be dealing with them at all, but it also shows his strong trust in Sam and her diplomatic skills as well as technical knowledge.

OK, not very shippy, but it's all I got.

EDIT: Just noticed this was post 1,000 for me! Hooray, I'm a captain!

[leiasky]

Good job with a tough episode, Cags - I agree that Shadow Play is not exactly SG1's most gripping hour I do like the reveal of it, and how when you get to the end you do want to go back and watch it again to sort out the reality from the fantasy, but like you, that's pretty much it for this one

I really love stories that give you subtle clues through the whole thing and a big reveal at the end making you want to go back and see what you missed. Probably why I like M. Night Shamalan so much.

Though, like you, I was pretty bored by this episode on the lack-of-action front. I adore Jonas (thankfully I wasn't part of online fandom during all the Jonas hating times) and he didn't feel as forced to me as a replacement for Daniel like Cam did for Jack.

Corin is a very talented actor and while I think Jonas' time in the SG world is over, (and would feel shoehorned now) I do wish he'd been around for more than one season.

On the S/J front. Even shippy glasses don't show me a smidge of 'ship' in this episode.

[Rachel500]

Shadow Play

Generally

How much do I love Dean Stockwell? Loads.

But how much do I loathe this episode? So much.

In many ways, I think one of the problems that I've always had is that the episodes which focus on Jonas's homeworld just don't provide stories which do the character of Jonas justice.

In rewatching, I will also say that I think Corin Nemec acts his socks off and does a good job with an episode he mainly carries. Most of the explored dynamic here is Jonas and Kieran or Jonas and Jack - with little hints throughout that Jack has put Jonas into the "His People" box and effectively has separated Jonas from the mass of Kelownans.

Sam and Jack

Interestingly this is one of the episodes on the Every Sam/Jack Shippy Moment Ever list which just as "None" beside it.

Although in some ways, I see the lack of ship as telling in-story. Jack, after all, has just spent presumably some weeks recovering from his ordeal by Ba'al; has spent some weeks getting over the fact that he influenced Kanan to go back for Shallan and why - ie. his own love for Sam; just gotten over the confusion of the torture where he may have gotten his own love for Sam and need to protect her, confused with protecting Shallen.

Meanwhile, Sam no doubt is dealing with the guilt of having asked him to take the symbiote and the consequences of that request even if she perhaps has doubts that she had something to do with Jack's ultimate agreement to it.

So, after all of that, I can see them both trying to distance themselves a little. They're helped initially of course by the fact that there is a schism in terms of their approach to the Kelownans; Sam wanting the naquadria and Jack really not caring what happens to the Kelownans at all regardless of the benefits naquadria may or may not bring. However, in front of the Kelownans, professionally, as hlndncr has said, they're in synch.

[hlndncr]

Although in some ways, I see the lack of ship as telling in-story. Jack, after all, has just spent presumably some weeks recovering from his ordeal by Ba'al; has spent some weeks getting over the fact that he influenced Kanan to go back for Shallan and why - ie. his own love for Sam; just gotten over the confusion of the torture where he may have gotten his own love for Sam and need to protect her, confused with protecting Shallen.

Meanwhile, Sam no doubt is dealing with the guilt of having asked him to take the symbiote and the consequences of that request even if she perhaps has doubts that she had something to do with Jack's ultimate agreement to it.

So, after all of that, I can see them both trying to distance themselves a little.

I like your shippy reasons for the shiplessness of the episode. So now even the lack of ship can be evidence of the ship. Nice!

That means some ship must have happened pre-ep off camera. Of course, I find that distinctly less satisfying than in-ep on camera ship. But thank heavens for talented fanfic writers who fill in the gaps for me.

[Petra]

Lol, looks like I'm the only one who doesn't mind this episode and isn't bored out of her skull Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's riveting but there are enough nice touches and little moments to keep me interested, albeit it's not an ep I rewatch often. Keep in mind though that I also *like* Politics For example I like catching minor details like acknowledgement that Kelownian weight system is different from the American one. Yeah, I'm strange, I know

Also: Jack's hot, ladies. And Sam always looks incredibly young and innocent in this one, I don't know why.

I don't get all the Dean Stockwell love. I'm always pretty meh about him.

But I also agree that Corin Nemic does an amazing job.

Yes, he so does. SP has one of my favourite Jonas scenes ever: Jonas/Teal'c conversation in the beginning about their lives and their goals. Great stuff.

Cags makes a good point about seeing absolutely no repercussions from Abyss, which does feel very artificial. But I would like to point out one moment when Jack is in Hammond's office and the General tells Jack he sounds like Dr. Jackson. When Jack mentions that they spent some time together, I think for Jack that reference isn't just their association before Daniel's ascension; Jack has recently spent some time with Daniel (being reminded that he is a better person than Jack believes himself to be), and now Jack is the one making the moral arguments against acquiring technology at the cost of interfering with a warring civilization where they could make things worse.

Yep, I noticed that too. I'm not sure if I contribute it to Abyss or Meridian, but either way it's the argument Jack keeps making throughout the season on various planets and to various races and I think it made for excellent character development for him. It's also one of the reasons why I didn't like Daniel's return, b/c it cancelled out all Jack learnt in season 6.

In my desperate bid to see any repercussions from Abyss I see some in the fact that Jack's the last one to enter the Gate room when they leave for Kelowna, and he seems very tense and in a hurry, as in "let's get it over with". And sure, it can all be contributed to his dislike of the Kelownians, but years ago I read a fic that had Jack giving himself a pep talk in the locker room right prior to embarking (the reason why he was late) b/c it was his first gate travel post-Baal and he was scared out of his mind. And now that's how I read the scene.

He's also much quieter and calmer than usual.

EDIT: Just noticed this was post 1,000 for me! Hooray, I'm a captain!

Congrats!!!

In many ways, I think one of the problems that I've always had is that the episodes which focus on Jonas's homeworld just don't provide stories which do the character of Jonas justice.

That's a good point. I don't think it's a bad episode but it utterly fails as Jonas episode because we don't learn anything new about him. I would have loved to get some background info on Jonas but there's nothing. Kelowna-focused episodes don't work for Jonas like Jaffa-focused episodes work for Teal'c and I don't think TPTB ever realised it. Well, to be fair, if they did they didn't have much time to fix it.

In rewatching, I will also say that I think Corin Nemec acts his socks off and does a good job with an episode he mainly carries. Most of the explored dynamic here is Jonas and Kieran or Jonas and Jack - with little hints throughout that Jack has put Jonas into the "His People" box and effectively has separated Jonas from the mass of Kelownans.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it. I found it interesting that when Kelownian delegation first arrived on Earth Jack chose to stand next to Jonas; he was the one to ask him about his relationship with the professor and to go back for him and tell him about Kieran's condition at the end. Contrasted with Descent there's also a difference in how he treats Jonas; he stopped cutting him off and even listened to him. Big improvement.

Although in some ways, I see the lack of ship as telling in-story.

*snipped for length*

I was going to say I don't see any ship whatsoever, but...after reading your post I now think it's a very shippy episode precisely because of what it doesn't show. Great job!

[Jeyla4ever]

Can someone PM me where I can find HD caps of Sam/Jack in the Shroud episode? I need it for fanart project. Thank you!!!

[hedwig]

Can someone PM me where I can find HD caps of Sam/Jack in the Shroud episode? I need it for fanart project. Thank you!!!

Not sure if they're HD, but you could check out the Gallery at the top of the page and then check Season 10 for The Shroud and see what pictures are in that.

[Cagranosalis]

Can someone PM me where I can find HD caps of Sam/Jack in the Shroud episode? I need it for fanart project. Thank you!!!

You could try asking on the artwork thread: http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/5...hread/page1573

Someone might have some there.

[Toomi]

Banner by regularamanda

Synopsis

Two scientists working off world, witness SG-1 being captured in a raid and endevour to rescue them not realising that SG-1 intended on being captured to contact an undercover Tok'ra

Favourite Scene

The beginning bit (as in the first 5 minutes) with the three scientists, Jack and Teal'c. Cracks me up every time

Favourite Quote

Teal'c: I believe the Canuks of Vancouver to be superior warriors.
Jack: (long pause) Canuks, eh? (another long pause) Lunch?

(and disclaimer... I am NOT a Canuks fan. I just find this very humerous...)

Jack: You ended that sentence with a preposition, *******!

Review

I love Patrick McKenna since I saw him as Harold on The Red Green Show all those years ago and when I saw him in SG-1 I was really excited. He plays a hero worshipping bumbling scientist and he suits this role so well.

Just the beginning scene, with the interplay between Jack, Felger and Teal'c is so very funny with so few words. Felger jokingly hitting Jack in the shoulder, and hovering over Jack's shoulder when Carter radio's in. Then the little interplay between the 3 scientists and arguing over worshipping at the altar of Roddenberry.

After a brief battle with some Jaffa, SG-1 is captured while Felger, Coombs and the other scientist watch. Felger and Coombs ring aboard the ship and the moment the get there, Felger fires off a shot. The other scientist gets back to the SGC to let Hammond know what has happened, while Felger and Coombs climb through what I can only assume is the air vents of a Goa'uld ship.

In the cell, the captured SG-1 look very relaxed, Sam sitting back against a wall, joking with Jonas that it's his first time getting captured by a Goa'uld. When the Jaffa arrive, Sam's calm look turns into a brief flash of fear before they start talking to their captors. Felger and Coombs make it to the cell and prepare to 'rescue' SG-1 to Jack's anger. He explains that SG-1 meant to get captured and now those two have put the mission in danger. Two more Jaffa enter and let them know that they are free and loyal to the undercover Tok'ra. Jack asks the Jaffa to get Felger and Coombs somewhere safe so they can be hidden.

Shortly after Coombs 'red shirt' comment, the Jaffa turn on each other, the free Jaffa ending up killed leaving Coombs and Felger alone. Felger comes up with a brilliant plan which ends up with himself and Coombs dressing up as Jaffa and making their way to where SG-1 is. When they are questionned, Coombs pukes, and Felger proceeds to zat the other Jaffa with his eyes closed. They make it to the other Jaffa and sneak in the back to watch the Tokra being killed. They then witness SG-1 being brought in, and Jack being tortured while questionned.

The scientists end up hiding in the control room, and they find maps, weapons, and lower the shields. With SG-1 free and armed with Zats, they head off to fight the Jaffa guarding the 'gate. Coombs is trapped inside the control room with Jaffa outside the door and can't join the rest of them, while SG-1 discover there's more than a few Jaffa guarding the 'gate. Jack and Teal'c head back to the pyramid to rescue Coombs once clearing the 'gate.

Once all safetly back at the SGC, Hammond awards Coombs and Felger, and after Jack has pinned their medals on and thanks them, Sam leans in and gives Felger a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY long kiss.... until Coombs manages to pull Felger away from his daydream

Implications for Jack and Sam

Is there much in this episode? I'm going to say that Jack does really look delightful in this episode!!! But while he and Sam share a few glances, there's not much interaction.