Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Torri012]

Auggghhh! I know that ABBA song, and I can't think of the title



Super trooper lights are gonna find me shining like the sun...

All your artwork is amazing!

And no, I haven't seen Mamma Miam although that explains why the lyrics were sort of familiar. 'Our Last Summer' is an ABBA song I'm only vaguely familiar with (although I've got the melody of it in my head that the moment.

To continue with the artwork, my next wallpaper/sig set. Hopefully, a little easier to read.



Sig:

y-y-y-ou havent seen the movie?? *jaw dropps*
omg! thats such a good one too. its really worth seeing it - i saw it twice

and
yeah, they're defenitally easyer to read
plus: really like them - i love green *grins* my favourite colour.
minus: poor lizzie has a blue flower on her chin though

[Ruined_puzzle]

Hey Sparkies, I have a discussion question stemmed from this thread regarding Stargate and abusive relationships, in which a component of it was brought up was the Sheppard kisses.

Speaking canonically, (be honest), if it were Lizzie instead of Teyla that Shep had kissed at the start of Conversion, do you think it is a possibility that you personally would be disallusioned and interpret such a kiss as romantic because it *is* our respective ship? (Same circumstances, everything as the Shep/Teyla kiss.) Would you support it as a sign of their romance?

Personally, for me, I don't think I would be because I just know from that one Sheyla kiss scene in Conversion I was very creeped out the first time I saw it, and if it was Weir I think I would be just as equally as unnerved. But I definately wouldn't use it as a romantic example, just as I do not use the Shep/Weir kiss in TLG as a shippy example. But, rather, I'm guilty of distorting it to my own AU. *points at a rotating sig* (If that makes sense!)

It would depend on Elizabeth's reaction. Would it be the same as Teyla's? both after the kiss and at the end when they have the conversation?

ETA: I just read the words in parentheses. Anyways I would see it the same way as the sheyla kiss. That there was/is an attraction and that's why he kissed her but attraction doesn't equal love or romance. If Elizabeth reacted the same way I wouldn't see it as romantic because nothing about that "kiss" was romantic, the reactions, editing, music (was there music, I think there was but I don't remember). But I kind of find it hard to believe that Elizabeth and John would be in that situation. I don't really know how Elizabeth would have reacted or if John would have been as forceful if it had been Elizabeth because the setting (stick fighting) brought out the aggressive part of John that was beginning to come out.

See I always compare the "kiss" to the food fight Teyla and Ronon had in some episode I can't remember the name of. That could be viewed as aggressive and abusive except that BOTH of them were all for it. It was playful and cute and they liked it. BOTH of them.

[Falcon Horus]

See I always compare the "kiss" to the food fight Teyla and Ronon had in some episode I can't remember the name of. That could be viewed as aggressive and abusive except that BOTH of them were all for it. It was playful and cute and they liked it. BOTH of them.

That would be the two-parter of season 2 --> The Lost Boys/The Hive

[Scary Kitty]

Hey Sparkies, I have a discussion question stemmed from this thread regarding Stargate and abusive relationships, in which a component of it was brought up was the Sheppard kisses.

Speaking canonically, (be honest), if it were Lizzie instead of Teyla that Shep had kissed at the start of Conversion, do you think it is a possibility that you personally would be disallusioned and interpret such a kiss as romantic because it *is* our respective ship? (Same circumstances, everything as the Shep/Teyla kiss.) Would you support it as a sign of their romance?

Personally, for me, I don't think I would be because I just know from that one Sheyla kiss scene in Conversion I was very creeped out the first time I saw it, and if it was Weir I think I would be just as equally as unnerved. But I definately wouldn't use it as a romantic example, just as I do not use the Shep/Weir kiss in TLG as a shippy example. But, rather, I'm guilty of distorting it to my own AU. *points at a rotating sig* (If that makes sense!)

Would I consider a Conversion-style kiss between Sheppard and Weir romantic just because it was my ship? Hell no.

I've always viewed the Sheyla kiss in Conversion as being hormonally-driven, rather than having any hidden feelings behind it. Remember, Teyla has Wraith DNA. And now Sheppard's own DNA is being rewritten by the Wraith-Iratus retrovirus gone haywire. The two then take part in a physically demanding activity, pheromone-laden sweat flying. It was a biological imperative, nothing more. Sheppard pulling away from Teyla, reasserting his human control over his body and mind, is the true indicator of his feelings in the matter. He doesn't want to go there. And based on Teyla's reaction then, as well as her obvious sigh of relief after John apologized to her at the end, says very plainly that she doesn't want to go there, either.

I don't see the kiss that did happen between Sheppard and Weir in TLG as romantic either. The circumstances leading up to it, specifically, John's agreement to host Thalan's consciousness after being led to believe that Thalan and Phoebus were married and believing that Elizabeth was consenting once she understood the situation, I think can be seen as an indication that John has some underlying feelings for Elizabeth that influenced his decision. As for Elizabeth, we've all seen plenty of hints in other episodes that she has similar underlying feelings for John. But, well, that's a whole other discussion...

[Eri13]

Hey Sparkies, I have a discussion question stemmed from this thread regarding Stargate and abusive relationships, in which a component of it was brought up was the Sheppard kisses.

Speaking canonically, (be honest), if it were Lizzie instead of Teyla that Shep had kissed at the start of Conversion, do you think it is a possibility that you personally would be disallusioned and interpret such a kiss as romantic because it *is* our respective ship? (Same circumstances, everything as the Shep/Teyla kiss.) Would you support it as a sign of their romance?

Personally, for me, I don't think I would be because I just know from that one Sheyla kiss scene in Conversion I was very creeped out the first time I saw it, and if it was Weir I think I would be just as equally as unnerved. But I definately wouldn't use it as a romantic example, just as I do not use the Shep/Weir kiss in TLG as a shippy example. But, rather, I'm guilty of distorting it to my own AU. *points at a rotating sig* (If that makes sense!)

No...I wouldn't see it as romantic. As many have said, I don't see the kiss between Elizabeth and John as romantic in The Long Goodbye. They weren't in their right minds. John did opt to play the part of Thalen, so there's a Sparky argument there, but otherwise, that kiss itself is not 'Sparky'. I wouldn't make the argument that 'the real John and Elizabeth were subconsciously influencing Thalen and Phoebus and the kiss was therefore really their influence' because that would be WAAAAY stretching.

In the same way I see John as not being in his right mind in "Conversion" during certain parts of the early scenes, and the kiss is one of them, just as John's breaking the glass in Elizabeth's office is. I suppose you could make an argument that John hides his feelings and the Iratus retrovirus considerably lowered his inhibitions, but if you do you also have to address how he kisses her and what that means for John's personality. His attraction to her is, at least partly, aggressive and violent? No, I wouldn't want to go there.

Honestly, I could see him behaving that way to any woman he was dueling who was Teyla-like in nature. A Cadman, or a Larrin. Because to me, that scene is about John's aggressive side taking over and part of that aggressiveness is his base animal nature--which in that scene is turned on by Teyla's own aggressiveness and perhaps the fact that they are close together, scantily clad, and sweaty. The stark contrast to how he acted there versus how he is with every other woman--even Princess what's her face who jumped him--shows how much the retrovirus was changing him. That he'd do that, to Teyla, should have scared you.

If he'd done the same to Elizabeth, I would have felt the same. I probably would not have liked it, actually, because it would have made that relationship basely physical. I don't like John and Elizabeth cuz they're a sexy couple, I like them because mentally they match and they share that deep connection. I think "Conversion" does play to that, because John's assault of Elizabeth is not 'sexy' but a battle of wills. His personality recognizes her, though she doesn't back down, and he releases her because he realizes he's attacking "Elizabeth" in the same way he recognized earlier on he was assaulting "Teyla".

I do think my love of Sparky makes me like particular episodes more than others, and to interpret scenes differently--more or less the argument I make pro-Sparky, not anti- anything else--but I've never blinded myself to something not being there because I love Sparky more. I recognize Sheyla exists in the scripts and could probably make a good argument for it if given the chance.

Good writing is about giving the viewer the opportunity to make their own judgments. People can view scenes many different ways depending on how they interpret characters. If someone isn't feeling Sparky, they can interpret the whole John/Elizabeth canon as platonic. That doesn't bother me. I've seen people make arguments for it and they're not unsupported; rather, they're supported by that person's interpretation of what spoken/unspoken lines, looks, and innuendo mean.

My interpretation of that scene is a little too aggressive for me, who likes 'love' to be demonstrated mentally, not physically. If it was meant to be 'romantic' then it was written by the kind of man who feels like sexual aggression and love can be equated, and I don't appreciate that view, particularly of John, who is written generally to be utterly respectful to women.

[Reiko]

Honestly, I could see him behaving that way to any woman he was dueling who was Teyla-like in nature. A Cadman, or a Larrin. Because to me, that scene is about John's aggressive side taking over and part of that aggressiveness is his base animal nature--which in that scene is turned on by Teyla's own aggressiveness and perhaps the fact that they are close together, scantily clad, and sweaty.

Hmm, you really opened my eyes a bit there Eri to something I had never considered before. I had always known that that scene was about John's primitive animal nature gaining control over his human one, which is why the kiss happened, but I never reallt considered how until now. Your theory about the sweaty, aggressive bodies in close quarters as a catalyst for John's primal nature to come out (before pulling himself back) gives the scene a new understanding.

[Southern Red]

Hey Sparkies, I have a discussion question stemmed from this thread regarding Stargate and abusive relationships, in which a component of it was brought up was the Sheppard kisses.

Speaking canonically, (be honest), if it were Lizzie instead of Teyla that Shep had kissed at the start of Conversion, do you think it is a possibility that you personally would be disallusioned and interpret such a kiss as romantic because it *is* our respective ship? (Same circumstances, everything as the Shep/Teyla kiss.) Would you support it as a sign of their romance?

Personally, for me, I don't think I would be because I just know from that one Sheyla kiss scene in Conversion I was very creeped out the first time I saw it, and if it was Weir I think I would be just as equally as unnerved. But I definately wouldn't use it as a romantic example, just as I do not use the Shep/Weir kiss in TLG as a shippy example. But, rather, I'm guilty of distorting it to my own AU. *points at a rotating sig* (If that makes sense!)

Very good points everybody and I totally agree. I admit that the Sparky kiss thrilled me, but it disappointed me all at the same time. I wanted it to be them and see it as the failure once again of the writers that it was never addressed beyond the infirmary scene at the end.

I have been enjoying that thread about abusive relationships and I am the one who brought up the Sheyla kiss. Interesting also that Reiko and I have been ignored but much is being made about Kanaan being an absent father. lol

I always thought that Sheyla kiss signaled the end of their attraction and even though certain writers indicated it was not, I still don't understand their thinking. I'm now glad they saw Elizabeth in a different light.

[Ruined_puzzle]

How is Kannan an absent father? Isn't he basically on Atlantis taking care of the baby while Teyla goes off on missions. Or are they talking about how he wasn't there for her pregnancy even THOUGH HE WAS KIDNAPPED AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE WAS PREGGERS.

[Southern Red]

How is Kannan an absent father? Isn't he basically on Atlantis taking care of the baby while Teyla goes off on missions. Or are they talking about how he wasn't there for her pregnancy even THOUGH HE WAS KIDNAPPED AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE WAS PREGGERS.

It's amusing really. The opinion on Kanaan is all over the place. Some think this was the only time the writers did a fairly good job on ship. Others think he is just a convenient plot device to explain the pregnancy. That last one is probably true. My favorite is the theory that even though he is the father of her child that doesn't mean he has any connection to Teyla??? Or something.

I'm confused about where he is too. I thought from GiTM that

Spoiler:

Teyla was lying to Elizabeth when she said he and the baby were off world, but a number of people seem to believe it.

Personally, I think he is in their quarters being a house husband. In fact JM said as much recently. He called him a "stay at home dad" I believe. I'm beginning to think he may stick around. You know how they like to have things going on off screen. I'm a bit worried about his future but not as much as I was. I think Teyla deserves to be happy but they should have done more with her Athosian culture.

And to get back on topic, they should have done more with Sparky also. But you know what? We have a lot to be thankful for. Imagine how we would feel if Elizabeth was in Teyla's place right now. We basically have no worries. No matter what they do in the movie. It won't change all the wonderful Sparky scenes we got.

[Reiko]

See, I ship Teyla with someone else ... but I oddly don't mind her with Kanaan at all. Maybe it's just because it's better than other alternatives, but I don't find the relationship 'abusive' or even 'neglectful' in any way. I see a supportive father and husband. (Though, yes, several of the theories are amusing.)

Don't forget to vote for Lizzie: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...57#post9086557

g'night.

[Scary Kitty]

It's amusing really. The opinion on Kanaan is all over the place. Some think this was the only time the writers did a fairly good job on ship. Others think he is just a convenient plot device to explain the pregnancy. That last one is probably true. My favorite is the theory that even though he is the father of her child that doesn't mean he has any connection to Teyla??? Or something.

I'm confused about where he is too. I thought from GiTM that

Spoiler:

Teyla was lying to Elizabeth when she said he and the baby were off world, but a number of people seem to believe it.

Personally, I think he is in their quarters being a house husband. In fact JM said as much recently. He called him a "stay at home dad" I believe. I'm beginning to think he may stick around. You know how they like to have things going on off screen. I'm a bit worried about his future but not as much as I was. I think Teyla deserves to be happy but they should have done more with her Athosian culture.

And to get back on topic, they should have done more with Sparky also. But you know what? We have a lot to be thankful for. Imagine how we would feel if Elizabeth was in Teyla's place right now. We basically have no worries. No matter what they do in the movie. It won't change all the wonderful Sparky scenes we got.

I do think that Kanaan was created as a plot device to explain the pregnancy... but in terms of reasonable ship, I think that it's worked out pretty well. SR, I agree with you about him being a "stay at home dad." After all, it's Teyla who is the one "going to work" everyday as a member of an off-world team, and I think it's great to see the stereotypical gender roles reversed in this fashion. Dads can stay home and take care of their families in real life, so why not on TV? Go Kanaan! And I hope that through Teyla and Kanaan, we'll get to see more of Athosian culture (but this late in the game, I doubt it'll happen).

And yeah. Nothing TPTW do at this point can erase Sparky. Sparky is eternal. We win.

[hopalong]

The name of the story has multiple meanings...

Not going there...

My next wallpaper/sig set:

Wallpaper:


Sig:

[Falcon Horus]

Imagine how we would feel if Elizabeth was in Teyla's place right now.

It would be Elizabeth Weir in my signature instead of Teyla Emmagan.

See, I ship Teyla with someone else ... but I oddly don't mind her with Kanaan at all.

I kinda like the Teyla/Kanaan ship - even though I'm 100% in love with Teyla/Kate.

[Southern Red]

See, I ship Teyla with someone else ... but I oddly don't mind her with Kanaan at all. Maybe it's just because it's better than other alternatives, but I don't find the relationship 'abusive' or even 'neglectful' in any way. I see a supportive father and husband. (Though, yes, several of the theories are amusing.)

Don't forget to vote for Lizzie: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...57#post9086557

g'night.

I love Teyla/Kanaan and think it was well written to a point. They should have come up with him sooner and should mention him more now. But I understand time constraints. People will complain no matter what they do.

[Eri13]

I do think that Kanaan was created as a plot device to explain the pregnancy... but in terms of reasonable ship, I think that it's worked out pretty well. SR, I agree with you about him being a "stay at home dad." After all, it's Teyla who is the one "going to work" everyday as a member of an off-world team, and I think it's great to see the stereotypical gender roles reversed in this fashion. Dads can stay home and take care of their families in real life, so why not on TV? Go Kanaan! And I hope that through Teyla and Kanaan, we'll get to see more of Athosian culture (but this late in the game, I doubt it'll happen).

And yeah. Nothing TPTW do at this point can erase Sparky. Sparky is eternal. We win.

I think that's exactly the problem people had/have with Kanaan. When it became apparent that Rachel's pregnancy was going to be written into the story, TPTB could have chosen any way to go, including making Sheppard or Ronon the father, and the fact that they chose an unknown guy I think made some people angry.

I actually like that they had Teyla have a child with an Athosian; when I heard about her pregnancy that's actually the way I thought it should go (that's not Sparky tainted, really--I just felt like it being John or Ronon's kid would have been completely out of left field).

But Kanaan isn't John (or Ronon) so some people just won't like him. I remember some celebrating last year when Malozzi revealed on his blog some of the early scenery pictures and one of them was Kanaan's funeral pyre and people were actually celebrating he was going to die! Before they'd even met him!

I do agree that stuff like Ronon's knowing him, or Elizabeth's remembering him in GITM is a bit out of nowhere, but I also think it's not too hard to explain. I've never seen the character so I can't draw judgments, but I do hope that Teyla can end up being happy--it's nice she has an Athosian family, because it always ties her back to her people, which I think is important for her.