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    Originally posted by Reiko View Post
    Indeed, they were. My purpose for joining SGA fandom at the time ... was simply so I could complain about the chnages being made, and from there when I learned exactly why it happened (no reason) and how things were handled I got more than a little pissy.

    So to be honest I don't think I would be here or at least as involved if it hadn't been for those stupid cast changes. But this thread and others are just too much fun to miss out on.
    Same here. As soon as I started going on-line, Carson and Elizabeth went off-line


    I asked him in a Pre-Season Five interview hosted by TV Guide (before S5 aired) about whether he regretted killing Elizabeth or had any regrets about the changes he made. TV Guide grouped my questions together but he pretty much shrugged it off nonchalantly saying "no, no regrets have I made."
    Fudging as always, JM. No regrets doesn't entirely mean that you wouldn't change things. And he could always have no regrets for his part in things, rather than the whole fiasco

    Elizabeth is more relatable than Teyla, but both female characters have suffered. I think that they tried to make Teyla a male-demographic appeal in the beginning, but then she got pregnant. (Hello, Keller!) Plus the majority of Teyla (and Elizabeth's) fanbase is female. So I think Teyla is supposed to be just the warrior babe to them and Elizabeth just the boss commander. But of course, they mean so much more to us.
    Teyla is actually the hardest hit of the two. She was supposed to be Teal'C, but when Ronon came along, he stole her parts. And yet even if you squished them together in s5, they would still be neglected

    It's double-edged. You don't want to give them everything, but with something so passionate like Save Elizabeth and Carson I think they took the wrong road. Of course, if you don't listen to them you will lose your audience. (Already happened.)

    JM has never once answered me on his blog. To get an answer to my question of if there would be any meaty Carson/Teyla scenes in S5 I had to go through one of his fanboys and then it was answered. (He said there wasn't any but there would be because Carson would have meaty scenes with all the core cast. I don't know if it was cut but for some reason I doubt anything was ever written.)
    Double speak. A required course for posting on the blog of doom.
    sigpic

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      Originally posted by Flowerbud View Post
      I was one of the fans that quit watching the show and being involved with the fandom after season 3. Looking back, I think M&M were truly amateurish in the way they interacted with the public. Now SGA is gone and if SGU fails, they are out of a job. So, perhaps that is why Mallozi sounds a little bit more humble, although he still does not admit that it was a mistake to fire Torri and kill Elizabeth multiple times. They had no clue what a following she had and how many young female viewers saw her as a role model. I like Teyla, but I don't identify with her. I don't wear skimpy clothes (it's too cold in Wisconsin!) and don't run around like an action heroine or have Wraith genes.
      Elizabeth doesn't really fit into any of the stereotypical female roles in scifi. She's not the alien battle-babe, or a techno-geek, or an airheaded damsel-in-distress who looks like a supermodel. Instead, she's a strong-willed woman; physically attractive, but not unnaturally glamorous; with a sense of adventure and wonder, who uses her brain to achieve her goals, and uses words rather than guns or knives as her weapons. She is a woman who breathes power, and she has gained it through positive means, which is bound to be attractive to many young women.

      And what segment of SciFi Channel's audience has grown the most in the past year? That's right. Women.

      Originally posted by Flowerbud View Post
      I can't help but feel that the way Elizabeth was handled was due to a lot of misogny on the writers' part. For some reason, they disliked the character of Elizabeth more than any other female character on the show. She was too old or she was the male lead's superior. Even though Elizabeth was very supportive of John, she was still his boss. Did she remind them of female authority figures in their own lives? Who knows.
      I'd say the way they've treated all the female characters is due to a lot of misogyny.
      (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
      Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

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        Originally posted by gateraid View Post
        You've heard of the idiom of not giving the fans everything they want (but variations close to what they want)? I think these guys took it literally
        Way too literally.

        Originally posted by gateraid View Post
        That's why I dislike that blog. JM has merit, but that blog has caused such friction. And given that a fair proportion of it actually discusses SGA, I'm surprised it is actually allowed. Not the ask a PTW (JM, MG, BW, CB etc) a question/interviews, rather the daily updates on what has been happening on the set and some plot tidbits.

        Edit: SA totally pwning Tonga right now 22-5
        Well, producers/showrunners for other shows have interacted with the fans and given them information on productions before; J. Michael Straczynski is practically a legend among fans for being a regular poster on a Usenet newsgroup for Babylon 5 throughout the series' run and for years afterward, discussing plot points of previous episodes, teasing hints for future episodes, and the like. So it's certainly not uncommon.

        Of course, the difference is that long before creating B5, JMS was a fan himself. He's been where we are, he knows what it's like, and as a result, he has always treated the fans with the utmost respect. Mallozzi, on the other hand... well, we all know how that's gone. And that's really the part that baffles me. That the higher-ups at MGM and SciFi haven't called him on the downright unprofessional way he's acted, calling fans "shrill and ill-informed lemmings," and the like. They're just letting him get away with his bad behavior and don't seem to care about how it's damaging relations with the fans, and therefore, damaging the economic viability of the franchise. Well, I suppose they'll figure it out eventually... when the money stops coming in.
        (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
        Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Reiko View Post
          Indeed, they were. My purpose for joining SGA fandom at the time ... was simply so I could complain about the chnages being made, and from there when I learned exactly why it happened (no reason) and how things were handled I got more than a little pissy.

          So to be honest I don't think I would be here or at least as involved if it hadn't been for those stupid cast changes. But this thread and others are just too much fun to miss out on.
          It was much the same with me. I came here to find out what was going on, got really pissed off at what I learned, but ended up staying not for the show, but for the interaction with everyone here. You guys are what make this fun for me.
          (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
          Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            It was much the same with me. I came here to find out what was going on, got really pissed off at what I learned, but ended up staying not for the show, but for the interaction with everyone here. You guys are what make this fun for me.
            Oh, so true! It's such a shame I only discovered this thread after it was all over and done, but you guys keep it fun and interesting! You all keep sparky alive and that's what counts the most!

            Sig by me

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              Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
              Elizabeth doesn't really fit into any of the stereotypical female roles in scifi. She's not the alien battle-babe, or a techno-geek, or an airheaded damsel-in-distress who looks like a supermodel. Instead, she's a strong-willed woman; physically attractive, but not unnaturally glamorous; with a sense of adventure and wonder, who uses her brain to achieve her goals, and uses words rather than guns or knives as her weapons. She is a woman who breathes power, and she has gained it through positive means, which is bound to be attractive to many young women.

              And what segment of SciFi Channel's audience has grown the most in the past year? That's right. Women.



              I'd say the way they've treated all the female characters is due to a lot of misogyny.

              Here here!!! One of the reasons I fell in love with the show is because of Elizabeth's strength of presence. Here was a woman that even the roughest and burliest of blokes looked up to. She stood her ground when challenged and wasn't afraid to make the odd mistake or two. Why can't there be more role models like this on TV???

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                Originally posted by yunadax View Post
                Here here!!! One of the reasons I fell in love with the show is because of Elizabeth's strength of presence. Here was a woman that even the roughest and burliest of blokes looked up to. She stood her ground when challenged and wasn't afraid to make the odd mistake or two. Why can't there be more role models like this on TV???
                Because they are hard to write for (yep, I know, it depends on what type of story you want to write). Hence Elizabeth was removed, hence Kate was removed, hence Teyla was sidelined. Hence Keller was brought in - she's malleable.
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                  Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                  Because they are hard to write for (yep, I know, it depends on what type of story you want to write). Hence Elizabeth was removed, hence Kate was removed, hence Teyla was sidelined. Hence Keller was brought in - she's malleable.
                  Actually, perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh on SGA.

                  The few shows I do watch either portray women as

                  * babe
                  * dumb
                  * can decide things for themselves until a man turns up, then they defer to him
                  * emotionally distraught
                  * the typical 80's/90's cliche - im gonna be the best gosh darn whatever i can be, and you just hate me coz i'm a woman (actually no, it didn't occur to me, you're just a dislikable human being)

                  And the men as either

                  * blokes who essentially only need women for sex, then hang out with other guys again
                  * alpha males who can't access their emotions, and have an unyielding sense of duty. These guys are oblivious to emotions in others too

                  or

                  * weak, simpering half-men who cannot make a decision without their empowered other half


                  SGA has, by and large, avoided those stereotypes. While I think they could do considerably better, on balance, perhaps they haven't done so bad after all?

                  Of course this doesn't account for other types of stereotypes - men in macho positions, women in caring positions, clothing, wallpapering...... the list goes on
                  sigpic

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                    Happy Birthday KrisRussel!!!!
                    sigpic

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                      Originally posted by cc_mac View Post
                      Happy Birthday KrisRussel!!!!
                      Wow... thank you
                      *passes cake around*

                      Sig by me

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                        Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                        Elizabeth doesn't really fit into any of the stereotypical female roles in scifi. She's not the alien battle-babe, or a techno-geek, or an airheaded damsel-in-distress who looks like a supermodel. Instead, she's a strong-willed woman; physically attractive, but not unnaturally glamorous; with a sense of adventure and wonder, who uses her brain to achieve her goals, and uses words rather than guns or knives as her weapons. She is a woman who breathes power, and she has gained it through positive means, which is bound to be attractive to many young women.

                        And what segment of SciFi Channel's audience has grown the most in the past year? That's right. Women.



                        I'd say the way they've treated all the female characters is due to a lot of misogyny.
                        Very good summary of Elizabeth. That should be a poster.

                        Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                        Oh, so true! It's such a shame I only discovered this thread after it was all over and done, but you guys keep it fun and interesting! You all keep sparky alive and that's what counts the most!
                        We're glad you found us. I've been here from the beginning almost. In fact I may be the last holdout from the old days. It hasn't always been easy to keep our spirits up but boy did it turn out better than I thought it would there for a moment. We have no reason to be depressed when we look at all the other ships. Except McKeller. *spits* Sparky is canon baby!

                        Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                        Actually, perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh on SGA.

                        The few shows I do watch either portray women as

                        * babe
                        * dumb
                        * can decide things for themselves until a man turns up, then they defer to him
                        * emotionally distraught
                        * the typical 80's/90's cliche - im gonna be the best gosh darn whatever i can be, and you just hate me coz i'm a woman (actually no, it didn't occur to me, you're just a dislikable human being)

                        And the men as either

                        * blokes who essentially only need women for sex, then hang out with other guys again
                        * alpha males who can't access their emotions, and have an unyielding sense of duty. These guys are oblivious to emotions in others too

                        or

                        * weak, simpering half-men who cannot make a decision without their empowered other half


                        SGA has, by and large, avoided those stereotypes. While I think they could do considerably better, on balance, perhaps they haven't done so bad after all?

                        Of course this doesn't account for other types of stereotypes - men in macho positions, women in caring positions, clothing, wallpapering...... the list goes on
                        Do you watch Bones? Now there's a strong woman. And a great ship.

                        Originally posted by cc_mac View Post
                        Happy Birthday KrisRussel!!!!
                        *cheers* Happy Birthday!! *takes a piece of cake and passes it along*
                        sigpic

                        Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

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                          Originally posted by Flowerbud View Post
                          I was one of the fans that quit watching the show and being involved with the fandom after season 3. Looking back, I think M&M were truly amateurish in the way they interacted with the public. Now SGA is gone and if SGU fails, they are out of a job. So, perhaps that is why Mallozi sounds a little bit more humble, although he still does not admit that it was a mistake to fire Torri and kill Elizabeth multiple times. They had no clue what a following she had and how many young female viewers saw her as a role model. I like Teyla, but I don't identify with her. I don't wear skimpy clothes (it's too cold in Wisconsin!) and don't run around like an action heroine or have Wraith genes.

                          I can't help but feel that the way Elizabeth was handled was due to a lot of misogny on the writers' part. For some reason, they disliked the character of Elizabeth more than any other female character on the show. She was too old or she was the male lead's superior. Even though Elizabeth was very supportive of John, she was still his boss. Did she remind them of female authority figures in their own lives? Who knows.
                          I do remember one of the criticisms leveled at them was the lack of female, well, anything on the production staff. For some reason there is this perception that sci-fi fans haven't changed over the years. I still get the feeling that some production heads perceive us as the stereotypical geekboy who shouts "that was AWESOME" everytime something blows up on screen.

                          Sad, because I know more girls who are sci-fi fans than boys. Geekboy girls, perhaps, but girls. And I'm not talkin' about you fine gals and boys here, because this is a C&R thread, so I'd expect more girls than guys. I'm talking about conversations around the watercooler at my work. The average sci-fi fan is no longer the comic book generation. Big, blowsy special effects alone won't suffice. Unfortunately, not many in the sci-fi industry have caught on to this, which is why we still get craptastic shows along with the gems. But nowadays there are shows which are embracing the new generation--stuff like LOST, BSG, the new Dr. Who, Supernatural, Fringe. And while Sci-fi itself is still a genre that doesn't pull in a ton of mainstream viewers, so it'll still struggle overall, these new shows give the new sci-fi fan choices that will prevent them from being stuck with shows not truly geared to them.

                          Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                          You've heard of the idiom of not giving the fans everything they want (but variations close to what they want)? I think these guys took it literally

                          That's why I dislike that blog. JM has merit, but that blog has caused such friction. And given that a fair proportion of it actually discusses SGA, I'm surprised it is actually allowed. Not the ask a PTW (JM, MG, BW, CB etc) a question/interviews, rather the daily updates on what has been happening on the set and some plot tidbits.

                          Edit: SA totally pwning Tonga right now 22-5
                          I think we have to remember that, though it's still a ratings earner, SGA is still a niche show, so it doesn't have the same standards for production that network shows would. I don't think MGM is policing things as strictly as ABC for LOST or CBS for CSI, etc. Sci-Fi doesn't earn the big bucks off of SGA viewers. Now, if someone went about spilling the beans on Wyvern, or Dragons 2001 or something...

                          Originally posted by Anuna View Post
                          GAHHHHHHCK~! Details, please, thank you. *can't see livejournal*
                          Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

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                            Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                            Wow... thank you
                            *passes cake around*
                            Happy Birthday! *takes a piece of cake*
                            Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

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                              Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                              And what segment of SciFi Channel's audience has grown the most in the past year? That's right. Women.
                              Ironic, because that's who it seems SGA lost...

                              Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                              Hence Keller was brought in - she's malleable.
                              Jennifer Keller is not a character. She is a yo-yo with boobs.

                              Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                              I do remember one of the criticisms leveled at them was the lack of female, well, anything on the production staff. For some reason there is this perception that sci-fi fans haven't changed over the years.
                              Word. I hate that SciFi is still regarded as a 'boy's genre' and consists of young men and 40-year old boys who live in their mother's basement and speak Klingon. The lack of women on SGA staff -- especially the way JM and Co shrug it off that 'they have had women but they don't give them what they want' -- may have contributed to SGA's eventual demise.

                              BTW, one of my favourite episodes was cowritten by a woman, but whenever that happens they seem to disappear.

                              HAPPY BIRTHDAY KRIS!!!

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                                Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                                Word. I hate that SciFi is still regarded as a 'boy's genre' and consists of young men and 40-year old boys who live in their mother's basement and speak Klingon. The lack of women on SGA staff -- especially the way JM and Co shrug it off that 'they have had women but they don't give them what they want' -- may have contributed to SGA's eventual demise.
                                True, I'm part of a Star Trek fanclub and our members are about 50/50 women and men. Most of them are married and have kids and have decent jobs. We even have a couple of doctors and lawyers among our members. We have a few 40 year old guys (and girls) that still live with their parents, but they are a great minority. Same goes for the other sci-fi clubs I know here (Star Wars, Stargate, ...)
                                Just ignore the fact I speak Klingon

                                Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                                HAPPY BIRTHDAY KRIS!!!
                                Thank you, Southern Red, Eri13 and Reiko!!!

                                Sig by me

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