Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[nephtys59]

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Ewwww!!! Stop touching me!!!

OMG, you made me think about Achmed and Jeff Dunham. "Stop touching me!!! I kill you!!!"

[Southern Red]

Rodney was an interesting one. He's probably the most inconsistent when it comes to Elizabeth. I actually counted him as the guy who had the most "mourning Elizabeth moments" other than John. And I still think that is true, but at the same time he did have more than a few moments where he seemed almost inappropriately nonchalant about the whole thing. It's probable that since it wasn't really written in the script for the most part, Flanigan had more opportunity to play the the part of mourning for her more with his character than Hewlett did.

Elizabeth and Rodney's relationship is actually one that I think is often overlooked in importance. They always felt really close in my mind and I think the fact that he was friends with Elizabeth was one of the things that was important in transforming McKay from being the pseudo-villain he was when we first saw him in SG-1, to a member of the Atlantis family/team. In fact I think perhaps his first memorable moment of selfless heroism was stepping in the way to save her from Koyla in The Storm.

Actually I think one of the best scene's Rodney has about Elizabeth after she is taken, is in Kindred II when talking with the clone of Carson and he asks for her.

Very good observations. I always loved that relationship. I though she brought out the best in Rodney. And notice that she and John were the best at controlling him. In reality he would have been devastated by her death.

This is in reference to the previously mentioned, apparently only obvious to some, relationship between Sheppard & Weir. You know the one - they hate each other, want each other dead, and so on. I dug up a few examples.

Spoiler:

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You are such a hardass. Even whilst you were unconscious, you managed to order me to carry you to the infirmary. If only we had a magical communications device so that we could call, nay, summon medical professionals to the control room

I love the expression on his face in that one. Intense concentration. Plus a bit of tongue.

[Scary Kitty]

OMG, you made me think about Achmed and Jeff Dunham. "Stop touching me!!! I kill you!!!"

HAHAHAHAH!

Very good observations. I always loved that relationship. I though she brought out the best in Rodney. And notice that she and John were the best at controlling him. In reality he would have been devastated by her death.

Come to think of it, after TMC he really seemed to throw himself into the effort to take down the Replicators with an intensity that was rare even for him. Hiding from his grief by burying himself in work.

I love the expression on his face in that one. Intense concentration. Plus a bit of tongue.

Heh. The tongue!porn wins again.

[Southern Red]

HAHAHAHAH!



Come to think of it, after TMC he really seemed to throw himself into the effort to take down the Replicators with an intensity that was rare even for him. Hiding from his grief by burying himself in work.



Heh. The tongue!porn wins again.

Here's me waving you off to the con tomorrow. Have fun! Take lots of pics! Tell us what he's wearing and how he looks and all the details. I wish I was going to be there too. *waves*

[Scary Kitty]

Here's me waving you off to the con tomorrow. Have fun! Take lots of pics! Tell us what he's wearing and how he looks and all the details. I wish I was going to be there too. *waves*

Heh! Hopefully more of my pics turn out all right this year... I had a major blur problem last year and too many of them weren't fit for public consumption (in a bad way!). Never did have a chance to go out looking for a monopod...

[mandogater]

Okay, in part because I want some honest opinions on the demeanors here (and in part because I love treating you and in part because I like hearing 'cool! cool!') here is another segment of Return to Pegasus, Part I.

This is the first time we see Teyla, and the scene follows the conference room meeting with the IOA. What do you think of Teyla in it? Is it canon enough? I'm trying to keep it in character and yet give her an edge...

Spoiler:

The doors to the Atlantis conference room swung open slowly, revealing a group of dour appearing IOA representatives, followed by John, Richard Woolsey and Rodney, who looked no happier than the Earth diplomats.

Teyla glanced up at Ronon, who met her gaze with seeming disinterestedness, though she knew Ronon well enough to know he bore feelings similar to hers.

Richard slowed to halt as he neared them, an already downcast appearance growing into a deeper frown. “Teyla. Ronon.”

Behind him, John bit his lip and Rodney’s expression immediately became sympathetic, signs from two men she knew quite well that they did not wish to tell her what decisions had been made in the last meeting. Though, even without their obvious hints as to the proceedings of the talks, she would have been able to tell the IOA had not changed their position on Atlantis.

She found it difficult to form words; thankfully Ronon took the initiative. “Nothing?”

“I’m afraid not.” Woolsey’s gaze was upon her face, not Ronon’s, with good reason. Ronon had already dedicated himself to remaining on Atlantis, and, though he would have much preferred being engaged in direct battle with the Wraith, his loyalty to the Expedition had not shifted.

She, too, had been forewarned of the possibilities she might face when travelling to the Milky Way. Yet, she had not anticipated that the difficulty would come from bureaucracy rather than power fluctuations or damage to the City. To know that it was impossible to return to her people would have been one hardship to bear. But to know nothing barred her way beyond rules and discussion was of a different matter.

“There’s supposed to be a representative from Homeworld Security visiting Atlantis sometime later in the week,” John said cautiously. “Apparently he…”

“She,” interrupted Rodney. “It’s a...a she. Her.”

“She,” John returned, throwing Rodney a glance, “will be the one making the determination as to whether Atlantis will be returning anytime soon to Pegasus.”

“Or any of its residents,” Woolsey was quick to add. “But that may be another matter entirely. No one has really brought up what the position of Pegasus native inhabitants will be.”

“It would seem obvious in one regard what they would like it to be,” Teyla said, gesturing to the Expedition uniforms she and Ronon both wore. The requirements of wearing Expedition gear had been a measure passed a few weeks back by the IOA contingent, targeted at she, Kanaan and Ronon.

“That was more for your protection than anything,” said John. “If we’re discovered…”

“There will be a great deal more to explain to those who discover the existence of Atlantis than our clothing, John,” Teyla finished edgily.

“Teyla,” Woolsey began softly, “it is not as though they are keeping you here arbitrarily.”

“I understand the need for the people of Earth to protect their planet and their people, Mr. Woolsey. That is not what I question. What I do not understand is their need to control the choices of those who should not concern them. Neither Kanaan nor myself will endanger the position of Atlantis on Earth. Allowing us to return to our homeworld—or at least contact them—will pose no threat…”

“I’m afraid that’s not true,” said Richard. “There is no telling what the Wraith would do to try and learn the location of Atlantis and of Earth right now. I know these precautions are frustrating, but in the end they are for both your benefit and ours.”

“There is no benefit to my people by my remaining here. That is all that concerns me.”

“What about Torren? And Kanaan? If the Wraith discover you’ve returned to Pegasus, what might they do to them to learn about the location of Earth? These are things the IOA is taking into consideration.”

Teyla drew in a breath, narrowing her eyes at him. “I would hope the people of this base would know me well enough by now to know the costs I would bear to ensure their safety. If they do not, then they do not understand me as well as I hoped.”

John’s nostrils flared a little, his eyes flickering towards Richard, whose frown deepened. Teyla felt her frustration growing at his inability to speak. For as long as she had known them all, they had been kind, caring people, but with one small failing—they had never chosen her people, or the Pegasus galaxy, over their own, even in matters where their people made unwise decisions.

“When we first encountered your Expedition people here took a chance of us,” Ronon said. “That’s all Teyla’s asking for now.”

“That was back in the days when we called the shots, buddy,” John replied in a soft tone. “And if it was just us…”

“But it is not,” Teyla interrupted edgily. “And it appears from the ongoing nature of these discussions, it perhaps shall never be again.”

John’s gaze dropped from her face to the floor, while Rodney’s expression drooped further.

Woolsey took a step closer, looking at her so intently she turned her face away. “All matters like these take time, Teyla. We haven’t forgotten you, or what this is costing you as leader of your people. Believe me. We are doing what we can to get you back to them. I promise.”

“It has been nine months since I have seen them. If it takes any more time, I fear it will matter little how much is done. If there is anything left to return to.”

She turned from them, unable to look upon John, Rodney or Richard at that moment. What she needed was the comfort of her family and what remained of her home.

Very cool!! I think you have captured Teyla and the IOA political slime well.

[Scary Kitty]

ZOMG. Fifteen hours until I get to see Joe Flanigan in the flesh again.

[mandogater]

Come to think of it, after TMC he really seemed to throw himself into the effort to take down the Replicators with an intensity that was rare even for him. Hiding from his grief by burying himself in work.

Didn't John or Radek say something to that effect in the episode?

[gateraid]

Rodney was an interesting one. He's probably the most inconsistent when it comes to Elizabeth. I actually counted him as the guy who had the most "mourning Elizabeth moments" other than John. And I still think that is true, but at the same time he did have more than a few moments where he seemed almost inappropriately nonchalant about the whole thing. It's probable that since it wasn't really written in the script for the most part, Flanigan had more opportunity to play the the part of mourning for her more with his character than Hewlett did.

Elizabeth and Rodney's relationship is actually one that I think is often overlooked in importance. They always felt really close in my mind and I think the fact that he was friends with Elizabeth was one of the things that was important in transforming McKay from being the pseudo-villain he was when we first saw him in SG-1, to a member of the Atlantis family/team. In fact I think perhaps his first memorable moment of selfless heroism was stepping in the way to save her from Koyla in The Storm.

Actually I think one of the best scene's Rodney has about Elizabeth after she is taken, is in Kindred II when talking with the clone of Carson and he asks for her.

I always liked the McWeir dynamic. It seemed very natural. Maybe he didn't see her as an equal in terms of science, but he saw her as an equal in terms of a human being. He didn't want to 'be' him (like John), or one-up her (like Carter), or be her BFF (Carson), or put her down/use her to make himself feel better (like Zelenka), he just respected her. He may not have put her up on a pedestal (he didn't do that with anyone), but when push came to shove, he was always on her side. It's why I really love their scenes in Misbegotten (how he says 'hungry' because he can tell she is a bit overwhelmed), Tao of Rodney (I don't think any of the other characters could have been as 'honest', both positive and negative, with him and still been listened to), and First Strike (he is the only one to back her up the whole way through). Even in Rising, he is reassuring her, which is surprising, given that he was even more of an ass back then

Perhaps he just put his grief in a box and never really dealt with it until Carson 2.0 arrived. Maybe that is why he is so upset there, it is a reminder that he hasn't really thought about it that much as he simply chose not to.

It's interesting to note how similar John and Rodney are... both misfits, both transformed by their friendships with Elizabeth (and with each other); it's why I call the three of them the Three Musketeers of Atlantis.

Which is something TPTW didn't appear to consider when they made Weir eat glass

That scene broke my heart. That was the first time I finally saw real grief in Rodney, as opposed to the "inappropriate nonchalance" (great way to describe it, BTW!) that you noted earlier.

I think his reaction is more honest there because Carson's "get Dr Weir down here" is something he'd never considered, so wasn't expecting. It really is a shock to him

*cackles*



And notice how he never gets anyone else on the show a birthday present.

We don't even know when their birthdays are

Oh yeah, John sure didn't like having to put his hand so close to her breast. Suuuuure.

The alternative is carrying her over his shoulder. I wouldn't mind if we saw Weir from that angle, I doubt Torri would be too pleased. I suppose she might enjoy the view

In full view of that birthday present that he got her and that she hated so much that she put it on her desk where everyone could see it. Hah!

Maybe she keeps a gun in there to shoot him? Or a voodoo doll. There's probably a fanfic with that somewhere

Yeah, he didn't like being touched so much that he started touching her back.

It's my favourite. Joe emoted that so well. Shock at the action, but then he lets his guard down, just for a moment. Then it's back to business.

Very good observations. I always loved that relationship. I though she brought out the best in Rodney. And notice that she and John were the best at controlling him. In reality he would have been devastated by her death.

She did control him well. In the BAMSR scene with McKay & the Colonels, Weir would've focused him anyway, without being an ass about it. At least, I can only assume she would. It's funny how John never really said anything there, he just let Ellis & Carter takeover. That may be a rank issue though.

I love the expression on his face in that one. Intense concentration. Plus a bit of tongue.

It's funny how that doesn't seem out of place to Carson. Or maybe that's just because they're busy and he doesn't have time to think about it - we have stretchers, Corrnul, and we cud've come to you

Here's me waving you off to the con tomorrow. Have fun! Take lots of pics! Tell us what he's wearing and how he looks and all the details. I wish I was going to be there too. *waves*

*waves also* Hopefully your pics are fit for public consumption this time

[gateraid]

Didn't John or Radek say something to that effect in the episode?

Yeah, I remember that too, but I can't place the ep. BAMSR??

[Scary Kitty]

Didn't John or Radek say something to that effect in the episode?

Yeah, I remember that too, but I can't place the ep. BAMSR??

It's been a while since I watched S4, but yes, I think that's right.

I always liked the McWeir dynamic. It seemed very natural. Maybe he didn't see her as an equal in terms of science, but he saw her as an equal in terms of a human being. He didn't want to 'be' him (like John), or one-up her (like Carter), or be her BFF (Carson), or put her down/use her to make himself feel better (like Zelenka), he just respected her. He may not have put her up on a pedestal (he didn't do that with anyone), but when push came to shove, he was always on her side. It's why I really love their scenes in Misbegotten (how he says 'hungry' because he can tell she is a bit overwhelmed), Tao of Rodney (I don't think any of the other characters could have been as 'honest', both positive and negative, with him and still been listened to), and First Strike (he is the only one to back her up the whole way through). Even in Rising, he is reassuring her, which is surprising, given that he was even more of an ass back then

That's how I see it, too. We never saw how Rodney got pulled into the Atlantis expedition, but as I said earlier, I'll bet that like John, it may have been another case of Weir seeing someone who could help them in tremendous ways but was viewed as a liability. And like with John, she didn't care about past records, just what he could do now, and was willing to give him a chance to prove it. I think, like John, that Rodney respected her very much for giving him that chance. Even though it didn't stop him from doing some incredibly stupid things sometimes. Project Arcturus? The nanites? Oooops.

Perhaps he just put his grief in a box and never really dealt with it until Carson 2.0 arrived. Maybe that is why he is so upset there, it is a reminder that he hasn't really thought about it that much as he simply chose not to.

...

I think his reaction is more honest there because Carson's "get Dr Weir down here" is something he'd never considered, so wasn't expecting. It really is a shock to him

Exactly. He's finally, truly forced to face it. It seems that he's more or less come to terms with it by GitM, though it still hurts.

Which is something TPTW didn't appear to consider when they made Weir eat glass

There's a lot of stuff TPTW failed to consider when they tried to axe Weir. Their problem was, they never seemed to be able to understand the long-term ramifications of the changes they made to the team dynamic and how they hurt their ability to tell certain kinds of stories. Their efforts to shoehorn Carter or Woolsey into a diplomatic capacity always looked ridiculous because their characters just weren't created for that kind of role, as Weir was.

We don't even know when their birthdays are

Well, by my calculations based on my viewing of Season 1, Weir's birthday should be sometime in the early spring. So there's something.

The alternative is carrying her over his shoulder. I wouldn't mind if we saw Weir from that angle, I doubt Torri would be too pleased. I suppose she might enjoy the view

LOL! Oh, how true!

Maybe she keeps a gun in there to shoot him? Or a voodoo doll. There's probably a fanfic with that somewhere

Nah, the jar's too small for a gun. The voodoo doll is a possibility, though.

It's my favourite. Joe emoted that so well. Shock at the action, but then he lets his guard down, just for a moment. Then it's back to business.

John was totally warm for Lizzeh's form.

She did control him well. In the BAMSR scene with McKay & the Colonels, Weir would've focused him anyway, without being an ass about it. At least, I can only assume she would. It's funny how John never really said anything there, he just let Ellis & Carter takeover. That may be a rank issue though.

Definitely a rank issue.

It's funny how that doesn't seem out of place to Carson. Or maybe that's just because they're busy and he doesn't have time to think about it - we have stretchers, Corrnul, and we cud've come to you

I always assumed it was because the infirmary staff was too busy.

*waves also* Hopefully your pics are fit for public consumption this time

Heh!

[gateraid]

It's been a while since I watched S4, but yes, I think that's right.



That's how I see it, too. We never saw how Rodney got pulled into the Atlantis expedition, but as I said earlier, I'll bet that like John, it may have been another case of Weir seeing someone who could help them in tremendous ways but was viewed as a liability. And like with John, she didn't care about past records, just what he could do now, and was willing to give him a chance to prove it. I think, like John, that Rodney respected her very much for giving him that chance. Even though it didn't stop him from doing some incredibly stupid things sometimes. Project Arcturus? The nanites? Oooops.

I can't say I ever really thought about it, but I would assume McKay was simply assigned to Antarctica because he was 'attached to the USAF' as he put it in Redemption. Weir chose to take him to Pegasus though. She could hardly leave him behind - she wouldn't have been allowed to take Carter, so he was the next best thing. I always wondered when I heard TPTW say that they wanted Carter on Atlantis from the beginning if she would be going instead of McKay, or instead of Weir.

With Sheppard, it's academic now because she did take him, but she pretty much had to because of his ATA gene (she couldn't take Jack). The question is, did she not care so much about his record because Sumner was going as well, and figured he'd keep him in line ie would she have been so eager to ignore his one (significant) black mark if he was going as her official 2IC?

Exactly. He's finally, truly forced to face it. It seems that he's more or less come to terms with it by GitM, though it still hurts.

At least he raises the point of it all starting from his actions.

There's a lot of stuff TPTW failed to consider when they tried to axe Weir. Their problem was, they never seemed to be able to understand the long-term ramifications of the changes they made to the team dynamic and how they hurt their ability to tell certain kinds of stories. Their efforts to shoehorn Carter or Woolsey into a diplomatic capacity always looked ridiculous because their characters just weren't created for that kind of role, as Weir was.

Exactly. When they had the character to do it with, they never bothered. Yet with Carter, they wrote Trio (they ended up trapped, but she was going as a negotiator) instead of writing the militirisation that was supposed to occur in s4. With Woolsey, they wrote Inquisition, but made him bribe someone to get his way.

Well, by my calculations based on my viewing of Season 1, Weir's birthday should be sometime in the early spring. So there's something.

The others mustn't have birthdays Or the only person anyone cared about was Weir?

Nah, the jar's too small for a gun. The voodoo doll is a possibility, though.

Someone will probably find the doll in the Legacy novels. Although she is possibly putting something else in it, to further those urgings there was never any proof of that he feels strongly

I always assumed it was because the infirmary staff was too busy.

Probably. Or he wanted to ensure that only Carson checked her over. Nothing but the best for the boss!

[Scary Kitty]

I can't say I ever really thought about it, but I would assume McKay was simply assigned to Antarctica because he was 'attached to the USAF' as he put it in Redemption. Weir chose to take him to Pegasus though. She could hardly leave him behind - she wouldn't have been allowed to take Carter, so he was the next best thing. I always wondered when I heard TPTW say that they wanted Carter on Atlantis from the beginning if she would be going instead of McKay, or instead of Weir.

Instead of McKay is my guess. The original plan for Atlantis was created with the assumption that SG-1 would be ending with Season 7, and Atlantis would be picking up where SG-1 left off, more or less, with Atlantis located in the Milky Way and the primary enemy being the Replicators. But when SG-1 was renewed, they had to move Atlantis to Pegasus and created the Wraith.

With Sheppard, it's academic now because she did take him, but she pretty much had to because of his ATA gene (she couldn't take Jack). The question is, did she not care so much about his record because Sumner was going as well, and figured he'd keep him in line ie would she have been so eager to ignore his one (significant) black mark if he was going as her official 2IC?

An interesting question. With Weir's line to O'Neill about 'I've seen your record' in counter to O'Neill's half-hearted protest of adding Sheppard to the team in Rising, I figured it was more of an acknowledgment by both characters that Sheppard had that same potential to be harnessed, as Hammond once saw in O'Neill at the beginning of SG-1.

At least he raises the point of it all starting from his actions.

Indeed.

Exactly. When they had the character to do it with, they never bothered. Yet with Carter, they wrote Trio (they ended up trapped, but she was going as a negotiator) instead of writing the militirisation that was supposed to occur in s4. With Woolsey, they wrote Inquisition, but made him bribe someone to get his way.

And let's not forget the SGU crossover coming up in which Woolsey is inexplicably dropped into the diplomat's seat yet again.

The others mustn't have birthdays Or the only person anyone cared about was Weir?

Oh, the irony.

Someone will probably find the doll in the Legacy novels. Although she is possibly putting something else in it, to further those urgings there was never any proof of that he feels strongly

*snorts*

Probably. Or he wanted to ensure that only Carson checked her over. Nothing but the best for the boss!

But I'm sure that John would've wanted to play doctor with Elizabeth later on. Just to be sure.

[Scary Kitty]

*yawns* Well, it's time for this little kitty to go to bed, because I've got a big day tomorrow squeeing over Joe Flanigan from afar.

Nighty-night, Sparkies, and pleasant Sparky dreams!

[gateraid]

Instead of McKay is my guess. The original plan for Atlantis was created with the assumption that SG-1 would be ending with Season 7, and Atlantis would be picking up where SG-1 left off, more or less, with Atlantis located in the Milky Way and the primary enemy being the Replicators. But when SG-1 was renewed, they had to move Atlantis to Pegasus and created the Wraith.

That's what I figured too. It would've required some adjustment. She'd have still been a Major, I presume. Sheppard would have to be older in order to outrank her. Teyla would've probably just been Ronon from the get-go. They wouldn't have needed Ford, else the 'team' would've been too military heavy. Either that, or Carter would mind the shop while Shep & Weir went off-world (not likely at all)

I didn't realise the enemy would be the replicators. If that is the case, it's a wonder it took them so long to introduce them.

An interesting question. With Weir's line to O'Neill about 'I've seen your record' in counter to O'Neill's half-hearted protest of adding Sheppard to the team in Rising, I figured it was more of an acknowledgment by both characters that Sheppard had that same potential to be harnessed, as Hammond once saw in O'Neill at the beginning of SG-1.

I guess it's all about using the best people for the job. And then keeping an eye on them.

And let's not forget the SGU crossover coming up in which Woolsey is inexplicably dropped into the diplomat's seat yet again.

All I can say is that the episode is aptly titled.

But I'm sure that John would've wanted to play doctor with Elizabeth later on. Just to be sure.

Maybe that explains their playful "Doctor/Colonel" banter in Return *nods*