Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Thank you for making me throw up

Any time. My work here is done. Now the Anheuser-Busch Amber Bock brand is as good as any microbrew I've ever enjoyed.

[Eri13]

That was fun. They go so fast when you do it this way. The next ones should be great. We have to get more people.

I SOOOOOOOO want to be there, and will try very hard to join in.

I love reading through your recaps.

I haven't quite finished my CG fic but will work on it today! And I have questions for CG coming later today as well.

[Scary Kitty]

Coors is good if you like flavored water.

*snerks*

The info on JF's family and Bud came out from several sources. I think it was from some cyber stalking but I'm not sure. The Flanigan family is a part of the Busch half of Anheuser-Busch, the company that makes a bunch of brands of beer, owns Sea World, Busch Gardens and a host of other things. He's modest about it and that's why we love him.

Holy smokes! That is seriously cool!

Chuck the Technician told the story at a con of how Joe arranged for a mega load of Budweiser for the scene in The Shrine. Evidently, the crew got started on it right away and much hilarity ensued. No wonder that scene was so good. Maybe they are onto something. LOL

Bwahahaha!!!!!

See, this is why Flanigan should've been made showrunner instead of M&M. We would've gotten Torri and Paul back full time by now, the stories would be waaay more fun, and the show would've been picked up for Season 6!

Any time. My work here is done. Now the Anheuser-Busch Amber Bock brand is as good as any microbrew I've ever enjoyed.

Hmm, I'll have to try that one sometime.

[Southern Red]

*snerks*



Holy smokes! That is seriously cool!



Bwahahaha!!!!!

See, this is why Flanigan should've been made showrunner instead of M&M. We would've gotten Torri and Paul back full time by now, the stories would be waaay more fun, and the show would've been picked up for Season 6!



Hmm, I'll have to try that one sometime.

What you said. And he could have bribed them with beer. I'm willing to bet the crew likes him too. I've heard other stories about things he and his wife have done for them. Very generous people.

[SMB_BOOKS]

Morning Sparkies!

I will do my best to join in on the episode thon this Saturday. If I am in US Central time zone, what time do I start?

And, I have dial-up internet at home, so if I am able to play this Saturday, I'm going to be behind everyone else on the posting thing....LOL.

[Southern Red]

Morning Sparkies!

I will do my best to join in on the episode thon this Saturday. If I am in US Central time zone, what time do I start?

And, I have dial-up internet at home, so if I am able to play this Saturday, I'm going to be behind everyone else on the posting thing....LOL.

Don't you love a challenge? I think we are starting at 2pm pacific, which would be 4pm central unless I'm wrong.

[Scary Kitty]

What you said. And he could have bribed them with beer. I'm willing to bet the crew likes him too. I've heard other stories about things he and his wife have done for them. Very generous people.

Heehee! Beer always makes things better! (And hey, he could still bribe MGM into letting him take over in a coup'd'etat! Then there'd be even more cause to celebrate!)

[Scary Kitty]

Morning Sparkies!

I will do my best to join in on the episode thon this Saturday. If I am in US Central time zone, what time do I start?

SR is right on the money, it'll be 4pm Central.

And, I have dial-up internet at home, so if I am able to play this Saturday, I'm going to be behind everyone else on the posting thing....LOL.

Heh! I did a couple of 'thons while I was having really slow internet connections a while back and didn't have too much of a lag. Just remember to have some good adblocking software installed to kill that nasty ad that's been slowing down the forum lately.

[SMB_BOOKS]

SR and SK - thanks! I'll do my best to join in!

[Scary Kitty]

It's another canon!day here on the Sparky thread, and for your lunchtime reading pleasure, I present:

Jack of Spades, by Domenika Marzione (aka miss_porcupine on LJ). An Elizabeth POV coda to The Storm/The Eye. Like all of the author's fics, this story is gen, but there are definite insights into how Elizabeth sees John and their working relationship and how the events of TS/TE have altered that perception.

Happy reading!

[Eri13]

Alrighty! Food for thought! *currently snacking on Lunch*

Common Ground Discussion Questions:

1) Were you glad to see Kolya again? Why or why not?

2) The Atlantis crew were particularly harsh to 'guest' Ladon Radim, despite the fact that he came to Atlantis willingly under peril to his own safety. Did you approve of the Atlantis attitude towards him as CG progressed?

3) Do you think the torture method used on John was rather brutal? Good or bad for an SGA episode?

4) Though we've had other 'talking' wraith in the past, he-who-would-be-named-Todd was the first we've seen as a 'true' potential ally, and with a reasonable attitude. Did you like this shift in the story or would you prefer all wraith remain traitors and villains?

5) Though we've seen a few Elizabeth&Ronon scenes here and there, Common Ground takes time to add both tension and commiseration to their relationship. What is your perception of their relationship after CG, and how does it differ from before the episode?

6) Elizabeth is presented as a hard-nosed leader in this episode--most particularly in the unspoken authorization to Ronon to kill Kolya first chance he got. Did you like this turn of her character?

7) Did you like the twist of the Wraith having the ability to restore life to people? Neat plot device or cheesy?

8) Should Kolya have died in this episode?

9) Do you approve of John's having let Todd go? Realistically, was this a wise decision?

10) We all gripe that CG isn't a 'perfect' SGA episode because there was no Weir/Sheppard scene after his rescue. Bearing in mind that such a scene would have to time out at about a minute or less for episode-length purposes--and keeping in mind that the great turnabout scene of the Wraith saving John/John releasing the Wraith flows nicely--how would you have ended it in canon?

[Anuna]

Oh yes, I was waiting for this! *rubs hands*

1) Were you glad to see Kolya again? Why or why not?

Kolya is the best SGA villain if you ask me, and the onewho endorses tons of sparky angst. Like you said, Eri, he is tied to both Elizabeth and John, and that's where his personal vendetta is directed. Also, he understands there is a certain connection between the two and he (ab)uses it, which makes the mentioned connection plain to see.

2) The Atlantis crew were particularly harsh to 'guest' Ladon Radim, despite the fact that he came to Atlantis willingly under peril to his own safety. Did you approve of the Atlantis attitude towards him as CG progressed?


I liked how they treated him fairly but with reasonable mistrust. I loved how Elizabeth refused to sacrifice his life, because that speaks volumes about her integrity and professionalism - when people say she's a bad or incompetent leader... I just don't get it! Who on Earth or Lantea for that matter would have stood under pressure the way she did? I think I did trust Ladon a bit, but also I doubted; I simply couldn't be certain of his intentions. So yeah, I was discovering what lay behind his actions along with the Lanteans.

3) Do you think the torture method used on John was rather brutal? Good or bad for an SGA episode?

It's the best thing ever done in any SGA episode. It was shocking. It still makes me angry, sad and helpless when I see it, and I can relate to John's teammates and friends who can't do anything but helplessly watch. I don't think any other episode truly shocked me the way CG did, and it was because of the torture method - cruel, twisted and simply inhuman. It pushed both characters and viewers to their (emotional) limits - and let me say, if SGA had more episodes like CG it wouldn't have been canceled. It takes guts for this kind of writing, because this was very dark, but in terms of SGA, totally fitting.

4) Though we've had other 'talking' wraith in the past, he-who-would-be-named-Todd was the first we've seen as a 'true' potential ally, and with a reasonable attitude. Did you like this shift in the story or would you prefer all wraith remain traitors and villains?

Oh I prefer this so much more. When enemies are simply evil, it's too easy. But in reality, enemies aren't simply evil, they're people with names, faces, loves and hates just like us. learning that a Wraith can feel gratitude and do something good... that's unsettling because it makes them more... I wouldn't say human, but more real, and less like black and white target you can shoot at in cold blood.

This discussion is giving me plot bunnies.

5) Though we've seen a few Elizabeth&Ronon scenes here and there, Common Ground takes time to add both tension and commiseration to their relationship. What is your perception of their relationship after CG, and how does it differ from before the episode?

I remeber Ronon saying in TLG how he doesn't understand the way Elizabeth is thinking. That was probably the most interesting line in that episode. I wish the stupid show runners took time to show us what Ronon thought about Elizabeth and how that had changed? From CG onward it's clear Ronon has tons of respect for Elizabeth. I wish we saw how and why and when that had happened. There's fic writing potential I think.

In CG it's clear Ronon respects her enough to listen to her even if he doesn't agree. Actually, he respects her, period. He trusts her. If I remeber correctly he doesn't question her decisions (although, methinks, he doesn't like them, just as he doesn't like the fact he can't help his friend); Ronon follows where she leads. Given what his past was like and how hard it is to slip under his defenses ... this episode is telling us a lot about Ronon and Elizabeth. Also, I think this is the first episode that doesn't treat Ronon like a prop smashing character who says few lines, frowns and growls.

6) Elizabeth is presented as a hard-nosed leader in this episode--most particularly in the unspoken authorization to Ronon to kill Kolya first chance he got. Did you like this turn of her character?

Hard - nosed, what does it mean? I'm unfamiliar with that expression.

Do I like Elizabeth's turn in character' God, yes I do! I love it. Another moment I loved - a moment that showed us that she's in fact keeping her feelings under hard control - when she said something like - if this was done the way I wanted it, it would be totally different - and I think she meant she would give Ladon to get John back. Beneath the not yielding professional who does the right thing is a human being who wants to do the thing that feels right, and that's to get John back.

Again - damn, I don't get the people who say Elizabeth is a weakling and a bad leader. Srsly, are those people watching the same show????

7) Did you like the twist of the Wraith having the ability to restore life to people? Neat plot device or cheesy?

It was the only way to make John look pretty again. I'm totally okay with it, although to me it was pretty predictable. It's a plot device, but one that's been well used and in this episode, it works.

8) Should Kolya have died in this episode?


NO! I wish he was still around! He's way cooler than... whoever the baddies right now are.

9) Do you approve of John's having let Todd go? Realistically, was this a wise decision?

I don't know was it wise. People who watched the new and improved SGA would be better judges of that. As far as I am concerned it was a right decision. John would have lost my respect had he killed Todd.

10) We all gripe that CG isn't a 'perfect' SGA episode because there was no Weir/Sheppard scene after his rescue. Bearing in mind that such a scene would have to time out at about a minute or less for episode-length purposes--and keeping in mind that the great turnabout scene of the Wraith saving John/John releasing the Wraith flows nicely--how would you have ended it in canon?

Damn , they could have made a bit longer episode and showed the reunion, because emotional fallout after this, in a real world would have been horrible. Think about guilt, self questioning and nightmares. Think about Elizabeth being forced to look into her feelings toward John, because those precise feelings she had to push aside, do her job, watch John literally fade away and have her heart ripped out.

I'd love if we had a chance to see her reaction when she saw him walk through the wormhole, healthy, young - looking and alive. I would love to see their first conversation, John comforting her, because we all know he would do that, I would love to see them hug, slowly this time, because after an ordeal like this one, both would need more contact, and slow, gentle contact to make sure they're both still alive.

And finally I would love to see him kissing her tears away, because I know he would have done just that. (Also? I'd love if that scene was done in a way Ronon could see it, smile and walk away, because Ronon would understand.)

[Southern Red]

1) Were you glad to see Kolya again? Why or why not?

Yes, I thought Kolya was a great villain and I knew he wasn't dead. At the time I didn't think TPTW were dumb enough to kill him off for good.

2) The Atlantis crew were particularly harsh to 'guest' Ladon Radim, despite the fact that he came to Atlantis willingly under peril to his own safety. Did you approve of the Atlantis attitude towards him as CG progressed?

Yes, they didn't know they could trust him. I would have wanted proof that he was on our side.

3) Do you think the torture method used on John was rather brutal? Good or bad for an SGA episode?

Good in a dramatic sense. It took them into a darker place and was very well done. It gave JF a chance to show what an amazing actor he is. Also Robert Davi and Chris H.

4) Though we've had other 'talking' wraith in the past, he-who-would-be-named-Todd was the first we've seen as a 'true' potential ally, and with a reasonable attitude. Did you like this shift in the story or would you prefer all wraith remain traitors and villains?

This was great, but I'm glad they kept it to just the one character. I think HWWBNT was changed by his time in captivity and the fact that Sheppard was the first person he'd had a chance to really talk to made a difference.

5) Though we've seen a few Elizabeth&Ronon scenes here and there, Common Ground takes time to add both tension and commiseration to their relationship. What is your perception of their relationship after CG, and how does it differ from before the episode?
I don't think it's all that different except in the sense that Ronon gained a new respect for her strength and an understanding of just how far she would go to protect them all. I imagine him making a comparison between her and John at this point and finding them a lot alike.

6) Elizabeth is presented as a hard-nosed leader in this episode--most particularly in the unspoken authorization to Ronon to kill Kolya first chance he got. Did you like this turn of her character?

Loved it. Wish we had seen more of it. I wish John could have seen her like that. She always seemed to be strongest when trying to save his skinny behind. *remembers Condemned*

7) Did you like the twist of the Wraith having the ability to restore life to people? Neat plot device or cheesy?

I never guessed. It was convenient but kind of a good twist. I'm glad they didn't overdo it.

8) Should Kolya have died in this episode?
No, Kolya should live until John can kill him in a very heroic way saving Elizabeth again.

9) Do you approve of John's having let Todd go? Realistically, was this a wise decision?
It was a stupid decision that has bitten him in his perfect little butt time and time again. But being John Sheppard, it was something he had to do. It reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan when they let the prisoners go. You just knew it was going to end badly.

10) We all gripe that CG isn't a 'perfect' SGA episode because there was no Weir/Sheppard scene after his rescue. Bearing in mind that such a scene would have to time out at about a minute or less for episode-length purposes--and keeping in mind that the great turnabout scene of the Wraith saving John/John releasing the Wraith flows nicely--how would you have ended it in canon?

Well, you would have had to cut out a minute somewhere else. So I would shorten the escape scene slightly by doing some precision editing, go directly from John's recovery to a scene with them arriving back at Atlantis and Elizabeth seeing John all young again. Rodney would be babbling about him being younger than before and John and Elizabeth would have an eye sex moment. Then I'd have John tell her what happened when they dropped the Wraith off and would show it in a flashback. I like the idea of ending on the Wraith.

[gateraid]

Common Ground Discussion Questions:

1) Were you glad to see Kolya again? Why or why not?

There are only two villians I actually like in SGA: the Genii, and the replicators (mostly Oberoth). Both groups faltered in their later outings. Koyla seems to be less concerned with death and destruction that he is with general mayhem ie he wants Atlantis, and he wants to get revenge via torture. A winning combination for a nemesis. And not only that, he seems to be the only one ho can effectively push both Shep & Weirs buttons simultaneously.

2) The Atlantis crew were particularly harsh to 'guest' Ladon Radim, despite the fact that he came to Atlantis willingly under peril to his own safety. Did you approve of the Atlantis attitude towards him as CG progressed?

Well, they have proven that they are generally untrustworthy. Ladon himself only came to power after the so called 'bloodless' (but not nuke-less) coup. He manipulated that situation to his own advantage, and there was every reason to suspect that he was doing the same here. A cautious approach was called for

3) Do you think the torture method used on John was rather brutal? Good or bad for an SGA episode?

No, not brutal. The problem I did have with it is it opened the way for the deus ex machina for people fed upon by wraith (eg Larrin). It might have seemed 'darker' if it were not Sheppard being fed upon (like they were really going to kill him). Contrast that to BSG - when something happens to one of their characters, I do get concerned coz they might actually die (and if they come back, then they're cylons)

4) Though we've had other 'talking' wraith in the past, he-who-would-be-named-Todd was the first we've seen as a 'true' potential ally, and with a reasonable attitude. Did you like this shift in the story or would you prefer all wraith remain traitors and villains?

They'd already paved the way here with Michael. To be honest, I would have preferred it the other way around - that Todd ended up by being the real villain, with Michael the friend/villain. That said, they couldn't have had the wraith as they were in s1 - they have to evolve or they become boring.

5) Though we've seen a few Elizabeth&Ronon scenes here and there, Common Ground takes time to add both tension and commiseration to their relationship. What is your perception of their relationship after CG, and how does it differ from before the episode?

I think the biggest thing it changed by the end of the ep was that Ronon seemed to respect Weir more. I think she had always respected his ability, but he didn't really feel the same about her because he didn't understand her (think TLG - "I haven't a clue how she thinks") and probably saw her as weak.

6) Elizabeth is presented as a hard-nosed leader in this episode--most particularly in the unspoken authorization to Ronon to kill Kolya first chance he got. Did you like this turn of her character?

Yes. IT felt natural in this ep, given their history with the Genii, and particularly Kolya. If nothing else, he had proven to be a threat and needed to be neutralised. And lets face it, in her tenure as Atlantis leader she was responsible for a good number of deaths simply by decree. The only difference here is that she had previously said to Ladon that she wouldn't kill him.

7) Did you like the twist of the Wraith having the ability to restore life to people? Neat plot device or cheesy?

It was necessary within the ep, otherwise Shep would die and the show would end, but it lessened the threat level of wraith feeding. Its one of those pandoras box situations.

8) Should Kolya have died in this episode?

If you'd asked me at the end of this ep, then I'd have said no, but given Irresponsible, hell yes. Then they could have made it a two episode arc (not a two parter) with Elizabeth being reprimanded for killing him and Sheppard suffering psychological problems related to nearly being killed

9) Do you approve of John's having let Todd go? Realistically, was this a wise decision?

Its still Stargate. They generally keep their word, so I wasnt expecting anything different. No, it wasn't wise, especially given that he was immediately going to make contact with the rest of the wraith, but nobody has a crystal ball when they make decisions. And my opinion would probably be different now that what it was at the time

10) We all gripe that CG isn't a 'perfect' SGA episode because there was no Weir/Sheppard scene after his rescue. Bearing in mind that such a scene would have to time out at about a minute or less for episode-length purposes--and keeping in mind that the great turnabout scene of the Wraith saving John/John releasing the Wraith flows nicely--how would you have ended it in canon?

I'd cut out the bit in the warehouse, and just have them coming back through the gate pissed off. The end scene could have been with Shep in the infirmary, asking why she would authorise assassinating Kolya for him. They could have even touched on TRW, with her saying something about him breaking isolation for her, yadda yadda, someone else can fill in the gaps...

Edit: wow, in the time it took me to write that, both Anuna & SR wrote theirs. I am so slow

[Southern Red]

Anybody bored. My friend sent me a link and I made this.

http://four.flash-gear.com/npuz/puz....603&k=60665579