Re: isn't it about time we get better weapons of daedalus an prometheus

[Schrodinger82]

Maximum energy, not identical energy. Ok, so maybe you missed that key reference, that's understandable. Is it possible to miss two?

The same stuff run through different guns will blow up just as good, barring inconsistencies in the weapons themselves (gee, that sound awfully similar to what you just said).

So basically your argument relies on the assumption that two completely different guns of two completely different natures won't have any major inconsistencies between them in terms of how they manage energy.

Come on. All things being equal.

The point of my posts here have been to convey the point that your weaponry can be as "advanced" as what have you but if you hook it up the a 9V square cell it won't do much at all. Let's give the rail gun the same power tolerances and the same power generator, how do you think it will go vs the ion cannon now?

All things being equal, the Deadalus rail guns couldn't even take out a single unshielded wraith hive ship even though it had a ZPM boosting it, where as an Atlantian satellite powered with a single naquadah generator would have had the power to take out all three.

[Lord §okar]

Lord §okar your not necessarly wrong all the time like people are trying to prove. But your comparisons just don't work. Seriouily. You can't say that the ancient "TW"(Trinity Weapon) is better then a nuke because it couldn't hit the PJ and the nuke could have. A nuke doesn't need to hit its target to be effective like the "TW" but it also loses alot of energy. The "TW" most likely channels almost all of its energy directly into the target. Unlike a nuke wich spreads it all over the place and it has such a big radius it doesn't need to hit directly.
*sigh* I said the explosion of the TW shots in orbiting debris would be eclipsed by a nuke.

Furthermore a nuke isn't all powerful like your claming. A good example hiroshima. Houses survived that were fairly close to the blast.
Houses in direct path of the blast at critical distance (for such sized weapons) would not stand a chance. Extenuating circumstances must have been in effect if this is true. Cite your data, please.

I just don't see how this is relavant, anyway. Yield is yield is yield.

The fact that the wraith don't have shields. If you don't have shields to block simple things like lets say space debris so that you can fly without being gutted by sand and small rocks you better make sure you have a well designed or reinforced hull.
If you're travelling at half the speed of light a one gram meteorite is approaching you with the kinetic energy of a 5 gigaton nuke. I find it immensely unlikely that any ship made of real materials could withstand that kind of bombardment. Furthermore you'd be immune to any weaponry the Ancients could throw at you (the yieldless battering ram squids and aforementioned example of uber guns). What's much, much, more eay to swallow is that they have forward reaching deflectors to push debris out of the way.

The Goa'uld weapons arn't all that bad.
Oh yes they are. Alkesh wield infantry level firepower. The tomahawk missiles fired from human warships by the dozens each have more yield than the main gun of a Ha'tak warship. Watch the end of Condemned for an example of Wraith firepower.

where as an Atlantian satellite powered with a single naquadah generator would have had the power to take out all three.
Or so it was alleged.

[Schrodinger82]

The fact that the wraith don't have shields. If you don't have shields to block simple things like lets say space debris so that you can fly without being gutted by sand and small rocks you better make sure you have a well designed or reinforced hull.
If you're travelling at half the speed of light a one gram meteorite is approaching you with the kinetic energy of a 5 gigaton nuke. I find it immensely unlikely that any ship made of real materials could withstand that kind of bombardment. Furthermore you'd be immune to any weaponry the Ancients could throw at you (the yieldless battering ram squids and aforementioned example of uber guns). What's much, much, more eay to swallow is that they have forward reaching deflectors to push debris out of the way.

So when have we ever seen the wraith ships moving at one-half the speed of light outside of hyperspace?

where as an Atlantian satellite powered with a single naquadah generator would have had the power to take out all three.
Or so it was alleged.

There were three wraith ships.

One was taken out by a satellite.

One was taken out by a nuke.

The last was one just sitting there while the Deadalus was still armed with a ZPM. Even with a ZPM, were the rail guns able to take out the hive ship?

No.

Then they beamed the ZPM down to Atlantis, but they still had their naquadria reactors powering the ship. Even with the naquadria reactors, were the rail guns able to take out the hive ships?

No.

Any way you slice it, an Atlantian weapon is still more powerful than an Earth weapon, even with an inferior energy source.

[Eoin]

Then they beamed the ZPM down to Atlantis, but they still had their naquadria reactors powering the ship. Even with the naquadria reactors, were the rail guns able to take out the hive ships?

Actually the Deadulas is powered by one or more asgard ion generators

Any way you slice it, an Atlantian weapon is still more powerful than an Earth weapon, even with an inferior energy source.

Agreed

[Lord §okar]

There were three wraith ships.

One was taken out by a satellite.

One was taken out by a nuke.

The last was one just sitting there while the Deadalus was still armed with a ZPM. Even with a ZPM, were the rail guns able to take out the hive ship?

No.

Then they beamed the ZPM down to Atlantis, but they still had their naquadria reactors powering the ship. Even with the naquadria reactors, were the rail guns able to take out the hive ships?

No.

Any way you slice it, an Atlantian weapon is still more powerful than an Earth weapon, even with an inferior energy source.
This seems a little obvious to me but oh well. The satellite is an enormous gun that had been charging off the generator for ages (capturing its energy emitted at low power for a long time so it could be dispensed quickly), that's all. Comparatively the Daedalus is a warship which many other high drain systems running, not the least of which being the engines and dozens of other weapons, which is not even considering the fact that the guns themselves may not be capable of handling as much power.

Your argument is self-defeating, the supposition was that all things being equal the energy in a shot from two different guns will be the same. The corrolary of that is that if there is an incongruity then all things aren't equal.

[Schrodinger82]

This seems a little obvious to me but oh well. The satellite is an enormous gun that had been charging off the generator for ages (capturing its energy emitted at low power for a long time so it could be dispensed quickly), that's all.

McKAY: The satellite’s fifteen hours away by Puddlejumper. I recommend that we put together a small crew – say myself, Grodin and a pilot.
SHEPPARD: I’ll go.
WEIR: No, Miller can handle it. Major, I need you to keep searching for alternate Alpha sites, just in case this fails.
McKAY: The hive ships will be in range of the satellite in forty-nine hours. We’re gonna need every last second of that time.

And later...

GRODIN: I think I found something like that. (He walks over to another laptop and types.) Yes, here it is. Right now the buffer’s at ninety percent.
McKAY: OK, so power’s getting to the buffer, it’s just not getting to the actual weapon.
GRODIN: Let me see if I can find a diagnostics programme. (He pushes controls on a couple of the satellite’s screens.) There must be one here.
McKAY (looking at his watch): OK, we’ve got twenty-nine hours til showtime, so let’s hope we don’t have to order parts, huh?

So 20 hours pass between the time and the briefing room and the time it takes to charge the satellite to charge the buffer at 90% capacity. 15 of those hours goes to travel time, leaving only 5 hours to set up, get ready, arrive, setup again, hook up all their equiptment to their satellite, and start charging.

That's not very much time.

Not to mention the fact that they were also powering up other systems, including life support, gravity, etc. Or the fact that Rodney was expecting to be able to hit the wraith again immeadiately afterwards with another hit, which implies that power generation wouldn't be an issue (THe reason they couldn't fire again was because the circuit they re-routed used overloaded).

Comparatively the Daedalus is a warship which many other high drain systems running,

So did the satellite. For instance, artificial gravity and life support.

not the least of which being the engines and dozens of other weapons,

Engines? It was in a stationary position.

As for the other weapons, the hive ship should have been a primary target. Especially when they had a ZPM.

which is not even considering the fact that the guns themselves may not be capable of handling as much power.

Which is an inherent limitation in the weapon itself.

Your argument is self-defeating, the supposition was that all things being equal the energy in a shot from two different guns will be the same.

Which might be true when all things are equal, but completely worthless when comparing two completely different weapons designed by two completely different technology.

[ray245]

we should all let the ships start using mk 9 as primary missile or even weapon...it is several gigaton and the power of anubis superweapon is also roughly the same...this mean that we have a VERY powerful weapon against the gou'uld..but some calculation have shown that the blast was several teratons in firepower...

[theStormWeaver]

I think we should atleast try to get some He'tak cannons, can't run out of ammo on those!! And they have a greater projectile velocity. They seem to be pretty effective against most opponents. But Area-51 is gonna have to come up with some serious tech before the Ori get here. They're gonna need something much more powerful than anything the gould, Asgard, Tolan, or Aschen ever had. We'll be fighting enemies that have the knowledge of the Ancients. (yes, I know the Ori are seperated from the Ancients by countless millenia, millenia is a thousand years, but they are Ascended and thus have the same knowledge)

[Major Tyler]

I say they take the blueprints for that "ground equivalent to the Ancient satellite" the Atlantis team found in "TRINITY" and equip the Daedalus with some of them. There is no way you are going to tell me they didn't get the blueprints on that thing before it went supernova, not when the Daedalus had been hiding in orbit above the planet with Asgard scanners, no way and if they didn't then the people who wrote the script should be shot I didn't care what kind of reasoning they try to pull there is no way the military wouldn't have scanned that thing, no way. And don't even think of saying that having that weapon would ruin the story line because it wouldn't.

Just because we have a blue print to something doesn't mean we can build it. Way to go saying the writers should be shot, asshøle.

[EnigmaNZ]

a "main RG " was mentioned in Beachhead, so we will see. The current RG is a compact weapon to take out light fast unsheilded targets like gliders and alkesh. The mount carried 10,000 projectiles so they must have been small and light, and they traveled relatively slowly, mach 5 is only about 1.6 Kps. If the weight of the 10,000 rounds is about 500Kg, thats only 50 grams per projectile. I would think they are more likely to be half that, or the magazine would be too heavy to replace without lifting equipment. Not an anti-capital ship destroyer. If it can deliver 1Kg of mass to the target over a second, thats about 8Mw of energy. But can it can be scaled up to be one. With a spinal cannon and enough energy. To get a 1000Kg slug to impact with a yield of 200 Mt though, it is going to have to hit at about 23,000Kps. Not very realistic. But we need to cover 100Km in no more than a second so the enemy doesn't have time to react by moving or shooting it down, with a long spinal cannon 100Kps may be doable. A 1000Kg projectile hitting at that velocity will impact with about 5Tj of energy, about 1250 tons of TNT. Enough to destroy a unshielded large ship if it hits something critical. But to destroy a shielded mothership, we need MORE POWER (couldn't resist thst ) so the projectile is going to have to provide that by exploding. A standard nuke probably couldn't survive the g force, so may be looking at a potassium / maquadria model. Anyway, that was fun, now for lunch and work.

[Lord §okar]

McKAY: The satellite’s fifteen hours away by Puddlejumper. I recommend that we put together a small crew – say myself, Grodin and a pilot.
SHEPPARD: I’ll go.
WEIR: No, Miller can handle it. Major, I need you to keep searching for alternate Alpha sites, just in case this fails.
McKAY: The hive ships will be in range of the satellite in forty-nine hours. We’re gonna need every last second of that time.

And later...

GRODIN: I think I found something like that. (He walks over to another laptop and types.) Yes, here it is. Right now the buffer’s at ninety percent.
McKAY: OK, so power’s getting to the buffer, it’s just not getting to the actual weapon.
GRODIN: Let me see if I can find a diagnostics programme. (He pushes controls on a couple of the satellite’s screens.) There must be one here.
McKAY (looking at his watch): OK, we’ve got twenty-nine hours til showtime, so let’s hope we don’t have to order parts, huh?

So 20 hours pass between the time and the briefing room and the time it takes to charge the satellite to charge the buffer at 90% capacity. 15 of those hours goes to travel time, leaving only 5 hours to set up, get ready, arrive, setup again, hook up all their equiptment to their satellite, and start charging.

That's not very much time.

Not to mention the fact that they were also powering up other systems, including life support, gravity, etc. Or the fact that Rodney was expecting to be able to hit the wraith again immeadiately afterwards with another hit, which implies that power generation wouldn't be an issue (THe reason they couldn't fire again was because the circuit they re-routed used overloaded).



So did the satellite. For instance, artificial gravity and life support.



Engines? It was in a stationary position.

As for the other weapons, the hive ship should have been a primary target. Especially when they had a ZPM.



Which is an inherent limitation in the weapon itself.



Which might be true when all things are equal, but completely worthless when comparing two completely different weapons designed by two completely different technology.

Have you watched Siege III, like at all? The Daedalus beamed the ZPM down to Atlantis far before they even engaged the hive ships. They were running their engines through the entire confrontation (this is a visually confirmed fact), as well as their sheilds and many other thirsty systems whereas the satellite was charging for a couple of hours off a super-Nq reactor and was running only gravity and life support in a much smaller space with, no doubt, much more efficient machinery performing the tasks.

What, exactly, is your argument again?

it is several gigaton and the power of anubis superweapon is also roughly the same...
Drivel. Anubis' "super"weapon was barely kiloton range.

[Schrodinger82]

Have you watched Siege III, like at all? The Daedalus beamed the ZPM down to Atlantis far before they even engaged the hive ships.

Okay, I just watched again, and you're right about the ZPM.

They were running their engines through the entire confrontation (this is a visually confirmed fact),

The "entire confrontation?" I don't think so. The only time we see the Daedalus use it's engines is after it exits hyperspace, where it's getting into position to engage the Wraith.

Whenever we look out the window later on, why do you think it is that the hive ship and cruisers move VERY slowly relative to the Deadalus? Are they all just moving at nearly the exact same speed in nearly the exact same direction? If the engines are running, then they're running at incredibly low power. Which should be evident, judging we get a "visual confirmation" of it.

as well as their sheilds and many other thirsty systems whereas

Yes, powered by a much more advanced Naquadriah reactor capable of transferring a massive spaceship across entire galaxies in less than three weeks. You're telling me that they couldn't find the available power to keep their weapons working on full if they wanted? I mean, worse case scenario, they hook up a dedicated Naquadah reactor to each gun.

That's like concluding that my TV must have less access to power than my remote control does, because my TV has to share its power with other appliances, where as my remote control does not.

Edit: Later in the episode, we see the same ship defend itself against 14 hive ships at once, while running it's engines, opening a hyperspace window, and STILL firing it's guns. So act like the act of defending itself against just ONE hive ship. Are you telling me that the power required to run the rail guns at full capacity is anywhere even close to the power of defending against 13 additional hive ships + a hyperdrive window?

the satellite was charging for a couple of hours off a super-Nq reactor

Wrong. First off, what basis do you have for calling it a "super-Nq reactor"? I see absolutely no indication that the reactor they used was in any way unique or different. It seems like you just made that up in order to support your case, but by al means, feel free to provide a piece of dialogue that says otherwise. Unlike you, I can actually admit my mistakes.

Secondly, once again, it doesn't take hours to charge:

SATELLITE. The remaining Wraith ships head for the satellite. In the Jumper, Rodney looks out the window anxiously.
McKAY: C’mon, hit ‘em again!
(Inside the satellite, alarms are sounding and panels are shorting out everywhere.)
GRODIN: We have a problem.
McKAY: What? What problem?
GRODIN (working the controls frantically): It looks like the circuit we re-routed has overloaded. The weapon can’t fire again. I’m trying to find another pathway.

Rodney and Grodin were both expecting to be able to IMMEADIATELY follow up with another shot. They were even expecting to be able to fire another shot AS THEY WRAITH WERE STILL BEARING DOWN ON THEM. This would not be the case if it took hours to charge.

Not to mention the obvious fact that Rodney would have mentioned something if it took "hours" to charge. I mean, do you really think he'd be telling Weir that the satellite could take out all three ships if that were the case? Don't you think he would have mentioned along the way, "This is a small chance, because even if we get off one hit, it'll be hours before we can make another"? But he didn't, which is why you're just grasping for straws.

Nowhere in that episode was power consumption an issue. The only issue at all was faulty wiring. If Grodin didn't have suffficient power to fire another shot seconds later, then why would the writers even have to add the "the circuit we re-routed has overloaded" explaination at all?

and was running only gravity and life support in a much smaller space with, no doubt, much more efficient machinery performing the tasks.

You're completely ignoring the fact that the Naquadriah reactors are far more powerful than a single Naquadah reactors are.

What, exactly, is your argument again?

My argument is that two completely different weapons of two completely different designs based on two completely different sets of principles would not necessary be equal in terms of how they manage and utilize energy. That some weapons will be more energy efficient than others, that some weapons will have higher capacity than others, and that some will distribute energy more effectively on their targets in order to inflict damage.

My second argument is that weapons that use energy developed by a completely different race on an entirely different planet will like function differently from a matter based weapon developed on Earth. Hence, any argument that "all things being equal" does not apply when making a comparison, because (shock) they're not equal!

My third argument is that the power of Naquadriah reactors designed for giant space ships absolutely DWARF the power requirements of a single naquadah generator.

What was your argument again?

[Schrodinger82]

Another point:

SHEPPARD: What about the drones – can you patch enough power to arm them?
McKAY: They’re not as complicated as the DHD ... uh, maybe, maybe, maybe one, given the time constraints.
SHEPPARD: Then do it. (He jumps into the pilot’s seat.)
TEYLA: Can one drone shoot down an entire Wraith cruiser?
SHEPPARD: Well, maybe we’ll get a lucky shot. McKay?
McKAY (working on a console): Almost. Just give me one more ... and ... OK, we’re armed, go, before the power cuts out again!
(John activates the controls and a single drone shoots out of the Jumper, flies up and impacts on the underside of the cruiser.)
(In the approaching Jumper)
LORNE: Did you see that?
WEIR: A drone.
(In the grounded Jumper)
McKAY: We scored a hit!
SHEPPARD: Great. That’s either gonna buy us time or piss them off.
McKAY: I don’t know what we’re gonna do now.
WEIR (over radio): Colonel Sheppard. You’ve damaged the Wraith cruiser and it’s leaving the area ...

In "Condemned," a single drone is enough to critically weaken a wraith cruiser. A single drone uses relatively little power.

But in "The Siege:"

ATLANTIS. CONTROL ROOM. The technician sees the explosion on his screen.
TECHNICIAN: We have a kill. The last hive ship has been neutralised.
(Elizabeth smiles in relief, and turns to look at Radek, who is also smiling.)

DAEDALUS. BRIDGE.
CALDWELL: Novak, I need you to prep another warhead for transport. We need to take out those cruisers.

Note that even with the railguns and no hive ships to worry about, Caldwell STILL felt that the best option would be to waste valuable nukes on them, rather than simply shooting them down with the railguns?

We must conclude that either:

1) A single drone had access to more energy than the Daedalus does
2) A single drone is capable of outputting more energy than the Daedalus is
3) A single drone had access to less energy and outputs less energy, yet is more effective against the same enemy because it relies on entirely different principls.

So which is it?

And don't even try using that "Well, it was using energy for other systems, so it couldn't afford to power weapons!" excuse again. It's weak. Later in the episode, we see the ship shielding itself against FOURTEEN hive ships, engines running, opening a hyperspace window, and yet even then, it still managed to have enough power left over to continue firing weapons. So don't act as though defending a bunch of stray darts is going to be that big of a drain.

[Lord §okar]

3) A single drone had access to less energy and outputs less energy, yet is more effective against the same enemy because it relies on entirely different principls.
^^ That's the one. A drone's destructive potential is not in any way related to how much energy it has access to. They have almost insignificant explosive yield. They do their damage kinetically, by entering sensetive areas deep within ships and damaging them. You can see this plainly at the end of Lost City 2. Anubis' ships blew up under their own power, the drones went in one side and out the other. They may not even have to batter their way through walls but rather "phase" to the other side.

And don't even try using that "Well, it was using energy for other systems, so it couldn't afford to power weapons!" excuse again. It's weak.
Yes, sir!

EDIT: Oh look, another post.

My argument is that two completely different weapons of two completely different designs based on two completely different sets of principles would not necessary be equal in terms of how they manage and utilize energy. That some weapons will be more energy efficient than others, that some weapons will have higher capacity than others, and that some will distribute energy more effectively on their targets in order to inflict damage.
Yes, I agree entirely.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

massive spoiler!!

Spoiler:

the Oddyssey and daedalus were given asgard weapons in s10 'Unending' just before they commited mass suicide