Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Madeleine]

I think it was Martin Wood in the commentary for Heroes Part 2 who said that "if you're in a foxhole with someone, you either grow to love them or grow to hate them." I believe that was his explanation for why Sam and Jack have this attraction whether the individual audience member sees chemistry between the actors or not.

Perhaps that's true, and that is a reasonable explanation for Sam and Jack loving each other. but being *in love*? It doesn't wash. Or else Sam eould have to be in love withe the other two guys she's been in the foxhole with as well, and so would Jack, etc etc. Love doesn't mean getting mushy, love means caring for the other person more than you care for yourself. which each of SG-1 have demostrated is the case many many times. MW's comments are no good as a justification for ship.

It just wouldn't be realistic if they didn't address that in some form.

Not strictly true, IMO. I've known enough people who have spent long years in close proximity and dependance on members of the opposite sex without getting romantic over each other that I can see a team of four where none of the four feel a need to shag any of the other three as totally realistic. IMO the basis for a romance is chemistry and a fitting together of two personalities, not the enforced spending of time together.

. SG1 is basically one big metaphor for studying the human psyche, the explorations to alien planets catalise their feelings so that the audience can see what happens between four people when they're put in extraordinary situations, its not just about the extraordinary situations themselves, you wouldn't need SG1 at all if that was the case.

I don't think Stargate is a metaphor for the human psyche. Or if it is, it's only a metaphor for the part of the human psyche that's interested in exploring, that's curious and full of wonder. I don't see anything in it that's a metaphor for romance, or for the part of the human psyche that needs romance.

And further to my previous post, not only do Farscape, Buffy and Firefly have built-in chemistry and built-in needs for some ship, but none of them have an active barrier to ship. That barrier being that the regs do *not* prohibit a S/J romance, it would have been easy as anything during s1-7 for Sam or Jack to transfer or even retire to allow the romance to start. But they never did. Ergo it makes no sense to me to imagine that they might have wanted that romance much if at all. Sam never transferred, Jack never retired, so the show's in a really sticky patch if they try to point to the existence of ship.

[ShadowMaat]

Yes, its about the Stargate and yes, its about SG1 but its also about the military and being at war. Whether you think it should be there or not, if you're fighting alongside someone, you're probably going to develop abnormal feelings for them, be they feelings of hostility, friendship or romance.

It just wouldn't be realistic if they didn't address that in some form. SG1 is basically one big metaphor for studying the human psyche, the explorations to alien planets catalise their feelings so that the audience can see what happens between four people when they're put in extraordinary situations, its not just about the extraordinary situations themselves, you wouldn't need SG1 at all if that was the case.

For someone who claims to respect anti-shipper views, you're doing an awfully good job of telling us we're wrong.

When you're in an "extraordinary situation", yes, maybe feelings will develop... for the length of the situation. Sam and Jack are not CONSTANTLY in danger. They are not constantly about to die. They are not constantly in that damned foxhole. I don't think it's "realistic" for TPTB to imply that Sam and Jack have real, tenable feelings for each other waway from the Combat Situation scenario. And as the saying goes- relationships built on the stress of the moment rarely last.

Also, just because feelings may develop doesn't mean that they will develop and it sure as hell doesn't mean we have to be SHOWN those feelings. And as Madeleine said, feelings don't ALWAYS have to develop. People can work side by side for years- even in stressful scenarios- and not fall into bed together. Implying that they HAVE to is what's unrealistic, and IMO it's a very shallow, selfish excuse for doing what you want.

[Mr Prophet]

and it would be tacky and cliched to simply ship the leading male and leading female when there's no actual reason for it.

What do you mean 'would be'?

When you're in an "extraordinary situation", yes, maybe feelings will develop... for the length of the situation. Sam and Jack are not CONSTANTLY in danger. They are not constantly about to die.

Yet another reason why I can swallow the D&C shippiness; that was a pressure situation, of course feelings will have been distorted. Such things lead to periods of confusion, followed by a resettling of the friendship; so long as nothing actually happened, and that forcefield pretty much rules that out.

That and the fact that I maintain D&C's main contribution to ship was to drag it into the light and shoot it in the vermin head.

[keshou]

Yes, its about the Stargate and yes, its about SG1 but its also about the military and being at war. Whether you think it should be there or not, if you're fighting alongside someone, you're probably going to develop abnormal feelings for them, be they feelings of hostility, friendship or romance.

Okay, ignoring the chemistry issue, which is in the eye of the beholder.

I love exploring relationships. Sometimes when people get thrown into extraordinary circumstances they develop a strong bond, they argue, they laugh, they sometimes love each other. And not just in the romantic sense. Sometimes they hate each other. I never had a problem with exploring the bond that was developing between any of the SG-1 team members. Just as I loved seeing the relationships when I watch a war piece like "Band of Brothers". The UST stuff they were doing with S&J up thru S3 was fine. They kind of blew it in D&C (IMO) but at least I left S4 thinking that if S&J had feelings or knew they were developing feelings they were going to move past them because SG-1 and the mission were more important. More important than working on developing a romantic relationship. I respected them, especially Sam.

Now they've pulled that storyline back in. And have written it poorly, IMO. It wasn't like a soap opera before, but it's starting to seem that way now. Some of that is beyond their control. This series has been in its "last season" for several years, and I'm sure they wanted to end it with a hint that S&J might get together after their SG-1 days were over. The hint has turned into a billboard flashing over S&J's heads.

It just wouldn't be realistic if they didn't address that in some form. SG1 is basically one big metaphor for studying the human psyche, the explorations to alien planets catalise their feelings so that the audience can see what happens between four people when they're put in extraordinary situations, its not just about the extraordinary situations themselves, you wouldn't need SG1 at all if that was the case.

Well I don't think SG-1 is one big metaphor for studying the human psyche. But again, enjoy seeing what happens to these four people in extraordinary circumstances. However when you disclose that "two of them really, really want to sleep together" - where do you go with it?? I'm enjoying seeing Shep and Weir's dynamic develop - just as I'm enjoying seeing the rest of the dynamics unfold over at Atlantis. I'm not a shipper anxiously awaiting their every conversation and touch. Don't care if they "end up together".

But Atlantis has the same problem. If sexual, romantic feelings develop between Shep and Weir - where do they go with it?? Weir is in charge of that whole mission - Shep is her top military officer. Good idea for them to get involved?? Probably not - whether it's against regulations or not. This isn't Farscape with a motley band of outlaws on the run. This is a professional civilian/military operation.

I remember that ST:TNG episode where Picard developed a relationship with a lady who was assigned to the Enterprise. I forget what her specialty was but something scientific in nature. Towards the end of the episode Picard had to place her in a dangerous assignment and he hesitated because of his personal feelings. They realized that it wouldn't work and she left the Enterprise. I guess their relationship wasn't against regulations but it was ultimately a BAD idea. Well Shep and Weir or Sam and Jack aren't guest characters. They can't leave at the end of the episode.

I guess it comes down to how well its written and acted that determines whether or not its suitable for the show.

Very true and I can't say I have a ton of faith in the writers right now. I guess I also don't think ship between the team works that well on shows like SG-1 or Atlantis. Especially between partners I consider "unequal", like Weir and one of her subordinates or between Jack and Sam. Whereas many shippers would probably enjoy seeing a sensuous love scene between Sam and Jack all I can picture is Sam moaning "Yes..Sir...Sir...YES!" at the peak of ecstasy. I have to tell you that image cracks me up laughing every time. I guess that's why I'm hoping for a subtle resolution.

[Dani347]

, if you're fighting alongside someone, you're probably going to develop abnormal feelings for them, be they feelings of hostility, friendship or romance.

Well, you've listed two other feelings. (Who says friendship is abnormal, anyway????) So, why for Jack and Sam does it have to be manifested in romance??

It just wouldn't be realistic if they didn't address that in some form.

Yeah, how about these forms? Friends, teammates, mentor/mentee. You can't convince me that there's anything in there situation that makes it unrealistic for them not to go the "I'm having a hard time keeping my pants on around you" route.

And, since Daniel and Teal'c are also in the foxhole, shouldn't Sam be beating off their "abnormal feelings of love" as well? Or are they just all conveniantly feeling friendship because, hmm, now what reason? Oh, because they aren't played by RDA? Hmm? Could that be it?

[Mr Prophet]

Yeah, how about these forms? Friends, teammates, mentor/mentee.

I agree with your points unreservedly, but...

A person who is mentored is a protege (with two acutes if I only knew how to do them on Gateworld). The double 'ee' only applies to the recipients of the actions of an 'er' payer/payee, employer/employee.

This random act of senseless pedantry brought to you by the Federation of Nitpicky Primary Teachers.

[Liv]

Whereas many shippers would probably enjoy seeing a sensuous love scene between Sam and Jack all I can picture is Sam moaning "Yes..Sir...Sir...YES!" at the peak of ecstasy. I have to tell you that image cracks me up laughing every time.

You do realize that this image will now forever reside inside my head, don't you? In a very vivid way that I did not particularly wish for.

[Mr Prophet]

You do realize that this image will now forever reside inside my head, don't you? In a very vivid way that I did not particularly wish for.

Likewise. And also, eww.

[keshou]

You do realize that this image will now forever reside inside my head, don't you? In a very vivid way that I did not particularly wish for.

My work here is done.

No really, though, that's one of my "issues" with S/J ship. I just can't get that image out of my head whenever people start talking love scenes for S&J. I'm a sorry case.

Hmm.. maybe a real on-screen love scene between S/J would remove this image from my brain. Hey, I've discovered a bright side to the S/J shippy resolution!

[Madeleine]

As long as she didn't explain to him the chemical properties of spermicides or the elastic properties of latex mid-clinch, and get cut off with an irritable "Carter! Get to the point!"

:: Runs and hides ::

[astronomicalchick]

As long as she didn't explain to him the chemical properties of spermicides or the elastic properties of latex mid-clinch, and get cut off with an irritable "Carter! Get to the point!"

:: Runs and hides ::

Blimey!! that's almost enough to convert me fully to anti-shipperdom!



*almost*

[NightGloom]

Wow... I think the anti-shippers are dirtier than the shippers! YAY!

[astronomicalchick]

What do you mean 'would be'?



Yet another reason why I can swallow the D&C shippiness; that was a pressure situation, of course feelings will have been distorted. Such things lead to periods of confusion, followed by a resettling of the friendship; so long as nothing actually happened, and that forcefield pretty much rules that out.

That and the fact that I maintain D&C's main contribution to ship was to drag it into the light and shoot it in the vermin head.

For some reason this imagery just makes me laugh! It's so good...

ooh I'm slipping into the dark side...

[Beta Candy]

Ewww! Gag me with a spoon!

For those who felt some TV ships have worked for them - I'll grant that it CAN, if all the variables stay in place - which is rare. I didn't see Farscape - yeah, I know I have to, LOL - so maybe that one was good. To me, the Buffy/Angel thing rocked, and I was a fan of it... until they shipped him awkwardly off to his own show and, after that it just felt like things changed to suit the infantile feud between WB and Fox rather than a natural evolution of characters. I just think TV producers don't put 1/10th the thought they should into launching their ships.

I think the trick is that even IF you have great writers and great actors, you need to have about 64 backup plans in place, including "What if the great writers/actors leave?", "What if we're moved to Sunday morning at 7 am", "What if the network CEO's nephew orders us to make one of the ship characters fall in love with a soccer player who's suddenly going to be playing herself on our show?" TV production people are business people with no respect for character, plot, etc. Until they can be eliminated (I'm working on a phase shifting device that will put them all in a loop as permanent "Price is Right" audience members), counter-strategies need to be in place.

Cheers survived the ships between Sam&Diane (Sam Malone, not Carter - try to stay with me) and Sam&Rebecca b/c it was a comedy and if those couples made you barf, well, Carla was puking right along with you, and so were some of the other characters. You didn't feel like you had to like them or else avoid try to cleanse half the scenes out of your mind with a scouring pad. (Which is how those images you guys are discussing made me feel - oh, thanks a lot!)

Friends is another interesting example. Some people found it so funny they were able to get through the Ross/Rachel mess by poking fun AT the relationship and not taking it seriously. For others, it ruined the show. And that show had all the elements in place - some of the best writers, best directors, a stable cast. They had a plan - and for some viewers, they still blew it.

At this moment, if you don't like Sam being in love with Jack OR Sam being in love with Pete... what else can you like about her? We're not seeing her as the commander of SG-1. We're not seeing her do a lot of science work. I do like the dynamic she and Daniel have on base - very sibling-ish - but I wanted to see her having to deal with him giving her hell in the field, too. I wanted to see her having to make the same sorts of decisions Jack has made, and see how she handles it. I was REALLY looking forward to that character development, and it's not been forthcoming so far.

And as for the argument that Jack and Sam MUST have strong feelings for each other due to what they've survived together - I agree. But it doesn't have to be romantic. And if you're talking about the human psyche, why stop with Sam and Jack? Why aren't all four in love with each other?

[LoneStar1836]

Ewww! Gag me with a spoon!

My thoughts exactly.

How could you people write such disgusting mental imagery on this thread?

If this

Whereas many shippers would probably enjoy seeing a sensuous love scene between Sam and Jack all I can picture is Sam moaning "Yes..Sir...Sir...YES!" at the peak of ecstasy. I have to tell you that image cracks me up laughing every time.

and that

As long as she didn't explain to him the chemical properties of spermicides or the elastic properties of latex mid-clinch, and get cut off with an irritable "Carter! Get to the point!"

don’t reaffirm your anti-shippness or convert you to our side, I don’t know what will.

Pass me the steel wool Beta Candy because I really wasn’t expecting to read this on an anti-ship thread. Must think about puppies and kittens or something to get those pictures out of my head.

At this moment, if you don't like Sam being in love with Jack OR Sam being in love with Pete... what else can you like about her? We're not seeing her as the commander of SG-1. We're not seeing her do a lot of science work. I do like the dynamic she and Daniel have on base - very sibling-ish - but I wanted to see her having to deal with him giving her hell in the field, too. I wanted to see her having to make the same sorts of decisions Jack has made, and see how she handles it. I was REALLY looking forward to that character development, and it's not been forthcoming so far.

I totally agree with every thing you’ve said. S8 is not a total bust, and I’ve liked most episodes (but not every aspect within each of those eps) but I SO was wanting them to have some kind of focus on Carter leading the team OFF-WORLD. There’s much potential there to develop her character and move the character’s evolution forward. (Right now Carter is stagnate and even somewhat devolving, imo.) I thought Zero Hour was going to be an example of that when I first saw the commercials for it, but boy was I disappointed. We had a tiny glimpse of her taking charge, but then……. Her having to rein in Daniel out in the field would be interesting to see, because I just can’t see her standing on top of Daniel and telling him no he can’t do whatever it is he’s so insistent on doing. I can’t really picture them butting heads over something like he and Jack do but who knows, they might fight like cats and dogs, but we’ll never know because they have yet to write an episode dealing with the team of three off-world TOGETHER. Sorry I guess this has more to do with the writers not writing it than it does with actual S/J ship (other than Carter not being the once strong character she was), but trying to wedge someone into the show to get in the cursory appearance, has tied the team to the planet Earth too much, in my opinion.