Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[ShadowMaat]

I'm not starting a Jonas thread because I am too bitter and depressed over the entire topic and don't wish to rub any more salt in my (and others') wounds than has already been ground in there by TPTB and half of fandom.

I'm not starting a Jonas thread because I don't want to deal with all the nasty people who won't be able to resist the urge to drop in and tell us how Jonas sucks rocks and deserves to die a graphic death (complete with animated smilies) and how much better the show is without him.

I'm not starting a Jonas thread because I don't want to watch it sink into obscurity after only a handful of posts.

As for the banana... I must have missed the "no ship" comment. Sorry. I get distracted because I've been tracking down lots of smilies and I most often see the dancing banana associated with some pretty obscene things... so I try and tune it out. *shudder*

[Beta Candy]

It's really cool how much agreement is going on in here.

ShadowMaat, I agree with you that neither Jack nor Sam are as cool as they used to be. I believe that's due largely to the ship emphasis, but not entirely. Whatever the reason, it's unfortunate.

In regards to comments on D&C... Jack DOES care about the whole team more than he's supposed to, and I can't really see him leaving Walter behind anymore than Sam. But for him to actually SAY what he says in that ep... I just always figured we were going to find out he was still under alien influence. (Yeah, I know - it's been 4 years so that's probably not gonna happen. )

I wish the writers would realize one thing: we have enough imagintion to imagine the ship if we want. We don't need the hints. Look at fanfiction: people have imagined ship between EVERY pair of characters on the show. What makes TPTB think we need it spelled out?

Oh, and as for Jonas... I thought Coryn Nemec really tried, and did a good job with what he had, but the writers didn't give him much. Jonas could have been a good character (and I don't disagree with anyone who thinks he was), but they just established that he'd memorized all of Daniel's work, then wrote him as Daniel Lite. It was laziness on their part. The poor guy was like New Coke coming in where no one wanted it. However, I think Fallout is one of the best eps of the series, and Coryn wrote that story, so I can't give him enough kudos for that. His interpretation of his character was a lot more interesting than the regular writers, IMO.

[NightGloom]

In regards to comments on D&C... Jack DOES care about the whole team more than he's supposed to, and I can't really see him leaving Walter behind anymore than Sam.

That's what I wish I could take it as, like "Oh, he wouldn't leave any of his team behind, even if it's an order to" But, alas, I have been spoiled and now look for ship so I can grumble and moan about it. *sigh*

I wish the writers would realize one thing: we have enough imagintion to imagine the ship if we want. We don't need the hints. Look at fanfiction: people have imagined ship between EVERY pair of characters on the show. What makes TPTB think we need it spelled out?

That's what I always wondered, except I think some of TPTB are shippers themselves. Plus, fanfiction is always better because the writer can use their own imagination and come up with a story in whatever direction *they* want the ship to be moving in.

[NightGloom]

Oh, yes, and I think Jonas was pretty cool... but I like Daniel too.... please don't hate me...

[ShadowMaat]

Oh, yes, and I think Jonas was pretty cool... but I like Daniel too.... please don't hate me...

Too late. I hate you. j/k

I like 'em both, too, but that's a long bitter rant for another thread.

Am I the only one who thinks the whole Sam/Jack issue is completely unsalvageable? And for me, it isn't just the ship issue it's the development of the characters themselves. My personal feeling is that it will all only get worse from here...

[NightGloom]

I think it might be unsalvagable as well. There's always a slim chance that something good might happen that will please everyone, but that's almost impossible to do. Either they could never mention it again and the shippers would be mad or they could resolve it, but any way that they resolve it someone might get upset. What I think is that TPTB already started the whole S/J so they should try to get it to come to a resolution along with strong character development.

[ShadowMaat]

Strong character development?? This is Stargate's TPTB, you know.

I'm still working on the "replaced by monkeys" theory, although having read The Fuselage and Lost Producer Javi's comments about squirrels, maybe SG's TPTB have been replaced by "huge MASSIVE squirrels. giant, man-eating, car-destroying, death dealing, mutant-shape shifting, time-traveling squirrels". Though I'm still out on the "and they're cute" bit. It would explain a lot, either way.

[NightGloom]

Aaah! They could have the squirrels from my backyard! They fit the description- except for the time-traveling and mutant shape-shifting part (that I know of). Waith, Squirrel Wraiths?

[Beta Candy]

Too late. I hate you. j/k

I like 'em both, too, but that's a long bitter rant for another thread.

Am I the only one who thinks the whole Sam/Jack issue is completely unsalvageable? And for me, it isn't just the ship issue it's the development of the characters themselves. My personal feeling is that it will all only get worse from here...

It may well be unsalvageable. I've tried to consider all the options. There are a couple that could work. Remember, Sam is the character who's most been hurt by this ship thing: she's the one we KNOW has feelings for Jack. Jack's feelings for her are still unclear - on his side, it may be nothing more than confusing loving her with being IN love with her. Which is a forgiveable mistake, as long as it gets sorted out at some point.

So, what ending might work?

(1) Sam outgrows her romantic feelings for Jack, they finally develop the friendship that kind of got lost along the way, and both characters are happy. This would probably please the largest block of fans, because a lot of shippers would accept it, and non-shippers and people who feel Sam has been trashed would now be able to look at it as a learning experience she went through.

(2) A big, crazy twist ending that causes you to re-think everything you thought you knew about those two characters and their relationship. This would probably not thrill ANY fans at first, but endings like this can grow into a cult classic if they're done properly. And SG-1 is just crazy enough to try it.

All the other endings I've thought of require a puke bucket. So, it's a slim chance, but there's a chance.

[LoneStar1836]

Ditto Jack, who has gone from being a strong, intelligent character with a wry sense of humor to a cold, bitter idiot prone to vulgarity who is lucky if he can figure out which end of the pencil to stick in the sharpener. That's probably why he has Wally around to do it for him.

Poor Walter. I hope the stupidity isn’t a contagious disease. Hopefully he’s vaccinated. Honestly, I could probably do without Jack. If they had a 9th season, I wouldn’t miss him because they have pretty much weaned me off of his character. After season 7’s gag fest of ship there at mid season and in several episodes toward the end, I could do without him thus solving the ship problem, maybe.

It’s pretty much unsalvageable. They have already tainted my mind and there is no going back now. I used to only dislike D&C because poor Martouf bought it but after venturing into online fandom and seeing the ship connection to that episode and the blah that became of Jack/Sam in season 7, I detest that episode now. Maybe it’s all a bad dream in Siler’s head, and he wakes up and it goes back to pre-D&C and the last 3 seasons of implied and blatant ship didn’t exist. Hey it could happen. If military regs can end up being tossed out so we can have ship then why can’t Siler have some really imaginative dreams. Maybe somebody wacked him in the head with his wrench by accident. Obviously TPTB were wacked in the head with something heavy.

[ShadowMaat]

Maybe somebody wacked him in the head with his wrench by accident. Obviously TPTB were wacked in the head with something heavy.

They were replaced by giant evil mutant killer shapeshifting time traveling squirrel monsters.

I've become so incredibly oversensitive to the whole ship thing that I see it even where shippers don't. I'm not particularly happy about THAT, either.

[keshou]

It’s pretty much unsalvageable. They have already tainted my mind and there is no going back now. I used to only dislike D&C because poor Martouf bought it but after venturing into online fandom and seeing the ship connection to that episode and the blah that became of Jack/Sam in season 7, I detest that episode now. Maybe it’s all a bad dream in Siler’s head, and he wakes up and it goes back to pre-D&C and the last 3 seasons of implied and blatant ship didn’t exist. Hey it could happen. If military regs can end up being tossed out so we can have ship then why can’t Siler have some really imaginative dreams. Maybe somebody wacked him in the head with his wrench by accident. Obviously TPTB were wacked in the head with something heavy.

Yeah, but I think that was a crowbar I saw being used in D&C to ramp up the "ship" *and* drive a wedge in fandom.

Before that I rather liked the occasional flirty UST between Jack and Sam but after D&C I just began to view their "shippy" scenes as awkward.

BTW, I don't totally dismiss the idea that TPTB will use the "it was all a dream!" thing before it's over. Or some other big massive reset button. They may think that's their only way out if they want to avoid resolution for S & J.

BUT at this point I'm pretty sure they are going to do the shippy ending thing. I just hope it's subtle because in spite of the calls for a big heavy love scene I still think something subtle would be more in keeping with the show.

[Beta Candy]

Maybe it’s all a bad dream in Siler’s head, and he wakes up and it goes back to pre-D&C and the last 3 seasons of implied and blatant ship didn’t exist. Hey it could happen.

Um, don't want to say anything I shouldn't, but they are talking about doing a straight to DVD movie that takes place in Season 2. And have you read spoilers for the end of 8?

I've become so incredibly oversensitive to the whole ship thing that I see it even where shippers don't. I'm not particularly happy about THAT, either.

Yeah, that TOTALLY bites. I really feel for you. I'm lucky because I honestly see a whole lotta proxy stuff going on here, and I can dismiss the J/S ship as just that. But even THAT is getting stretched thin because I keep thinking, okay these characters are smart enough to have figured this out by now, aren't they?

I could forgive them as human beings if the whole thing was just a little delusion, a little guilty fantasy that gave them some comfort through all the rough times. People do that, and I get it. But by now it's become just flat out pathetic. I think THAT is what I most have trouble with. I like flawed characters, but not pathetic ones.

[NightGloom]

I've become so incredibly oversensitive to the whole ship thing that I see it even where shippers don't. I'm not particularly happy about THAT, either.

Same with me, except usually I try in vain to deny everything I see.

[ShadowMaat]

Same with me, except usually I try in vain to deny everything I see.

It takes me out of the story whenever I see it and brings everything to a grinding halt while a big neon sign flashes over the scene going SHIP! SHIP! SHIP! SHIP! And then it takes a while for me to get back into the story again and everything tends to stay off kilter because of the SHIP! SHIP! SHIP! SHIP!

I hates it... Nasty hobbitses...