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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by KatG View Post
    *coughs* Ahem. *cough*

    Let's get back on topic guys, please. The discussion is for why you don't want to see ship between Sam/Jack. Not why you no longer play on GW as much or how much other threads annoy you, or whether or not certain comments are hypocritical. While I know that some off topicness is going to occur just as a general fallout of conversation, I also know you guys have valid reasons and concerns for why you don't want to see it, so if you could try and talk about that. for the most part, it would be greatly appreciated.
    Not a problem, Kat.

    TPTB never managed to convince me, in 10 plus years, that we were watching a realistic, normal, healthy relationship.
    Due to all the uncomfortable looks, stilted silences and juvenile, fumbling attempts at conversation, I just can't imagine the pair of them ever having an intelligent, realistic, conversation. About romance or anything else, really. And I certainly can't imagine why TPTB thought we fans would think that this was a good way to show two of their lead characters.

    Grown adults can be foolish in love, it's never a pretty sight, it's not cute or admirable, laudable or attractive. Why would you want to show these characters, characters you have worked long and hard on, acting like lovesick teenagers? Why keep them in limbo, unable to move forward like normal people? What on earth does it add to their characters? It makes them into caricatures and can only damage them.

    And I've never seen a single scene of the silly melodrama which added to the net SG1 story. In taking screen time from the team and important plot lines, it takes so much more than it gives.

    The only reason I can think is that, for some reason, the formula had to be adhered to, main man had to fit with main woman, regardless of the internal story structure, the lack of romantic chemistry, the damage to the larger SG1 story.

    Still, SG1 is old news now, and I always remind myself, it could have been so much worse, S/J fizzled out like the damp squib it was. No big fireworks, just a pathetic fizz which died away to nothing.

    FF
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      I'm over the "blame game" regards to who's in the wrong or right......the only thing I will reiterate completely and constantly is that I'm not sexist in my views on S/J ship or the lack of it imho...I would hate to be viewed as sexist, racist, ageist etc ever!!.......However it did get me to go and find the slash fiction that first drew me to that particular side of the fandom and I found to my surprise (or not actually) that my favourite "old guard" writers actually wrote the character of Sam Carter as a wonderfully bold, vibrant woman who had enormous loyalty to, and held great friendship for, Jack, Daniel and Teal'c and gave the J/D relationship wonderful support....just reading Dangermouse's epics (who also continued the WONDERFUL Sam and Janet friendship in many of her stores) and Anais' Diary and Joy's Trilogy made me love Sam Carter all over again because to me she came across so differently from the character in the show, written by writers, again purely imho, with a possibly more sexist agenda then I'd ever come across in my first foray into slash fiction...I think it was probably because I really liked S1-3 Sam so much and much of the fic I was reading reminded me of this......I felt that the minute the really intrusive and obvious "shippy moments" came to the fore, that's when Sam lost me as a major fan...of course this viewpoint from me will be entirely from a slash leaning because that's what I am but I'm in NO WAY trying to convert anyone to this with my post....just thought I'd better add that as clarification....can't be too careful on forums these days.....

      And that's what has put me off S/J ship in the SG-1 series....to me it comes across as a terribly (possibly sexist) male view of how the "strong female woman" acts when all of a sudden she's supposed to harbour these hidden feelings for her superior officer..and, I might add just as poorly written, from Jack O'Neill's point of view too...yeuch!... if you'll pardon my expression.....I can put up with the fact that sometimes Sam came across a teeny weeny bit too much of "superwoman" but I could accept that in the scientific storylines....I really admire clever women (not being one myself) and it was nice to see how well Amanda carried it off.......Also, imho, Jack came across as a bit of a stupid ass too, but again, RDA was so brilliant I can be okay with that too....all the characters had their weak points during the series so hey, live and let live on that one I say...

      But again it all boils down to the "relationship" aspect.....contrary to popular belief I DO believe that there are good ones out there....hard to find for me, true, but they are there.....I think that the relationship between Zoe and Wash - a married couple working and fighting together - in Firefly was awesome.....I cried buckets at the end of Serenity
      Spoiler:
      when Wash was killed and the dignified way Warrior Woman Zoe paid tribute to him and then got back out there doing her job in his memory....
      simply stunning stuff - everyone should watch Firefly and Serenity at least 10 times in their life!...THAT's how to write a loving, believable and wonderful relationship on screen imho....


      Anyway - S/J not so good.......will my dislike of it change - very much doubt it.....will a 3rd movie convince me that it's a good well-rounded, well written relationship - not on previous experiences I'm afraid.....

      My overriding and main wish......absolutely NO 3rd movie....none of us need confirmation/affirmation/revelation/whatever-ation if we're fanfic addicts...that's what it's for.....my pairing will live on in my mind, and those of my favourite writers, for a long time I hope.....and I save everything I love now because it DOES disappear....I want to have my best forever.....like my DVD's of Stargate...it's enough for me....


      Wow, that was long wasn't it?.....I do go on sometimes, me!...


      Deeds xx
      Last edited by discodiva; 14 July 2010, 05:50 AM.
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        RE: last few posts on Sam & Jack as characters

        Yeah, I love Jack, but one of my favorite Daniel lines is in Crystal Skull "Jack, don't be an ass." he really can be sometimes, can't he?

        And I'm in the camp that thinks that by making Sam sooo nervous, fumbling etc when dealing w/ Jack, it diminished her. I think it's fine that Sam is less confident in her love life than she is in her professional life. She gets a bit flustered. It's a bit of a cliche, but still I can see it with her. But I really have to draw the line at the excruciating BBQ scene in Threads.

        And the Pete situation was bad as well. When I first watched Chimera I remember first kind of liking him. He was goofy but made Sam laugh and smile which was great. Then the morning after he started in on "you don't trust me" even though she told him she wasn't allowed to tell him much, and then walked out on her. My heart broke a bit for Sam. The ******* hurt her. Oh well, move on.
        Then she calls him; forgives him for following her to the stakeout etc. I just didn't see Sam putting up with that.

        I don't think they handled the guys' love lives very well either, for that matter.

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          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          I'm over the "blame game" regards to who's in the wrong or right......the only thing I will reiterate completely and constantly is that I'm not sexist in my views on S/J ship or the lack of it imho...I would hate to be viewed as sexist, racist, ageist etc ever!!.......However it did get me to go and find the slash fiction that first drew me to that particular side of the fandom and I found to my surprise (or not actually) that my favourite "old guard" writers actually wrote the character of Sam Carter as a wonderfully bold, vibrant woman who had enormous loyalty to, and held great friendship for, Jack, Daniel and Teal'c and gave the J/D relationship wonderful support....just reading Dangermouse's epics (who also continued the WONDERFUL Sam and Janet friendship in many of her stores) and Anais' Diary and Joy's Trilogy made me love Sam Carter all over again because to me she came across so differently from the character in the show, written by writers, again purely imho, with a possibly more sexist agenda then I'd ever come across in my first foray into slash fiction...I think it was probably because I really liked S1-3 Sam so much and much of the fic I was reading reminded me of this......I felt that the minute the really intrusive and obvious "shippy moments" came to the fore, that's when Sam lost me as a major fan...of course this viewpoint from me will be entirely from a slash leaning because that's what I am but I'm in NO WAY trying to convert anyone to this with my post....just thought I'd better add that as clarification....can't be too careful on forums these days.....
          I think you have to remember, when we criticize Sam, we are actually criticizing those who write Sam.
          I totally bought Anais' Sam, she was written like an adrenaline junkie, with the right 'feel' and interests to make me believe in that aspect of her character. Where I never bought it on the show itself, felt too bolted on and too much of a case of telling, not showing. And I love the way the team comes together in the Diary when Sam is hurt on her bike after the argument with they guys. I feel for Sam throughout that fic, the three of them (plus her father) would drive a saint to drink (and I just love the scene where Jacob finds out about the raspberry yoghurt...)
          I frequently find the characters more consistent and more subtly written in good fanfic compared to on the show.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          And that's what has put me off S/J ship in the SG-1 series....to me it comes across as a terribly (possibly sexist) male view of how the "strong female woman" acts when all of a sudden she's supposed to harbour these hidden feelings for her superior officer..and, I might add just as poorly written, from Jack O'Neill's point of view too...yeuch!... if you'll pardon my expression.....I can put up with the fact that sometimes Sam came across a teeny weeny bit too much of "superwoman" but I could accept that in the scientific storylines....I really admire clever women (not being one myself) and it was nice to see how well Amanda carried it off.......Also, imho, Jack came across as a bit of a stupid ass too, but again, RDA was so brilliant I can be okay with that too....all the characters had their weak points during the series so hey, live and let live on that one I say...
          I just accepted SuperSam as a convention of the genre, just as all the aliens and transported earth cultures speak contemporary US English.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          But again it all boils down to the "relationship" aspect.....contrary to popular belief I DO believe that there are good ones out there....hard to find for me, true, but they are there.....I think that the relationship between Zoe and Wash - a married couple working and fighting together - in Firefly was awesome.....I cried buckets at the end of Serenity
          Spoiler:
          when Wash was killed and the dignified way Warrior Woman Zoe paid tribute to him and then got back out there doing her job in his memory....
          simply stunning stuff - everyone should watch Firefly and Serenity at least 10 times in their life!...THAT's how to write a loving, believable and wonderful relationship on screen imho....
          There are good ones out there, Donna/Josh in West Wing, Sam/Annie in LoM, Odo/Kira on DS9, Delenn/Sheridan on B5. It just wasn’t SG1 or TPTB strong point, it’s not what SG1 will be remembered for in ten years time, that’s for sure. Unless they pull a Riker/Troi. Shudder.

          Originally posted by discodiva View Post
          Anyway - S/J not so good.......will my dislike of it change - very much doubt it.....will a 3rd movie convince me that it's a good well-rounded, well written relationship - not on previous experiences I'm afraid.....

          My overriding and main wish......absolutely NO 3rd movie....none of us need confirmation/affirmation/revelation/whatever-ation if we're fanfic addicts...that's what it's for.....my pairing will live on in my mind, and those of my favourite writers, for a long time I hope.....and I save everything I love now because it DOES disappear....I want to have my best forever.....like my DVD's of Stargate...it's enough for me....


          Wow, that was long wasn't it?.....I do go on sometimes, me!...


          Deeds xx
          It’s was moderately entertaining TV show with some great characters and a brilliant cast, which finished a few years ago, not a matter of life and death. If they do pull a Riker/Troi with Sam/Jack in the third film, I just won’t watch it, simple as that, though, in all honesty, every day which passes makes a film less likely and every day which passes, fans, even really dedicated fans, move on to new shows. The casual viewers moved on years ago.


          FF
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            You know what i loved about Continuum? Jack knew who Sam was in teh alternate timeline, but he was more along the lines of "Hey. It's you. You don't know me but that's because you're supposed to be dead." and he really didn't seem like he was even attracted to her.

            with Charlie still alive in that timeline, Jack would have likely stayed with Sara, which means that Jack was a happy and fulfilled guy with a family ^_^ Awww that makes me smile.

            And it wasn't an alternate reality or universe, it was Earth without the Stargate, So no fate! No destiny! Not cliche love amongst the stars!

            *dances*

            I have just eaten several blueberry cheesecake cookies. I am on a sugar high. I am feeling good.
            Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
            Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

            Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
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              Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
              You know what i loved about Continuum? Jack knew who Sam was in teh alternate timeline, but he was more along the lines of "Hey. It's you. You don't know me but that's because you're supposed to be dead." and he really didn't seem like he was even attracted to her.

              with Charlie still alive in that timeline, Jack would have likely stayed with Sara, which means that Jack was a happy and fulfilled guy with a family ^_^ Awww that makes me smile.

              And it wasn't an alternate reality or universe, it was Earth without the Stargate, So no fate! No destiny! Not cliche love amongst the stars!

              *dances*

              I have just eaten several blueberry cheesecake cookies. I am on a sugar high. I am feeling good.
              Continuum didn't really work for me; so bored with the big reset button of AU's.
              It looked beautiful, the arctic shooting was marvelous and MS and AT, in particular, looked gorgeous.

              The Jack in our reality was too much DumbJack!, form me, every word out of his mouth a quip, and did he even speak to Daniel or Teal'c? Or was all his conversation with his little beloved? Whatever, he came over as flat and dull.

              AU Jack was much more interesting, him, I wanted to see more of.

              FF
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                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                Sorry for the mulitple posts but I lost the part that was my brilliant response to Khent, but here goes my (pithier) reconstruction:

                1.Khent you *are* demented for not thinking RDA is smokin'.
                Yeah well, I guess I can live with being demented. I wouldn't deny that he's good looking, just not attractive to me. And it's not an age thing either, because I can think of plenty of older guys I find attractive.

                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                2. I think Sam would find Jack's "humor" annoying as often as she'd find it amusing. Or am I projecting? I love Jack's comments, but I found him getting sillier by the later seasons.
                Personally I don't think you're projecting. I always got the same impression. I thought that while Sam might sort of smirk and roll her eyes at Jack's goofier humor when they're working or having lunch in the commissary or whatever, that it would get on her nerves if she had to deal with it in a romantic partner. I mean, I have several friend whose sense of humor can be a bit grating to me, and while that certainly doesn't prevent me from being friends with them, it would drive me bonkers if we were romantically involved.

                And yes, I agree that Jack was definitely getting sillier in the later seasons. And in Continuum. *shudders*

                Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                I think TPTB see this too, and that's why they jumped into SGU with TJ and Young already established and in trouble. It's a knee jerk reaction to try and save what little respect they still have. And they're STILL being asked "WHEN ARE SAM/JACK MAKING BABIES!!!?!??!!?"
                Lol. Yeah, I do think that TJ/Young is an interesting counter-point to S/J. Maybe I'm just a cynic about relationships, but I really do prefer seeing this disastrous relationship on SGU than the sappier, less complicated version they tried to give us with S/J (or even McKay/Keller, if we're comparing other relationships on Stargate). So I'm glad they're going down a completely different road on SGU and think it's a good move writing-wise. Of course, if TPTB somehow have TJ and Young miraculously working things out and playing happy families by the end of the series, I'll eat my words.

                Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                Oddly enough, is S/J really so sad that THOR has a better chance with her in our minds? That's...hilariously cruel


                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                And I'm in the camp that thinks that by making Sam sooo nervous, fumbling etc when dealing w/ Jack, it diminished her. I think it's fine that Sam is less confident in her love life than she is in her professional life. She gets a bit flustered. It's a bit of a cliche, but still I can see it with her. But I really have to draw the line at the excruciating BBQ scene in Threads.
                I have a tough time with certain cliches, and this is one of them. For some reason it just doesn't work for me in this case. Although, maybe that's partially because of how Sam is written early in the seasons? It's been a while since I watched season 1, but I seem to recall liking the way Sam handled Jonas Hanson. From what I recall, she stood up to him, admitted her past mistakes, and handled the whole situation very confidently. So then later in the series when she seems more hesitant around Jack and unsure of her own mind with Pete, it just doesn't make as much sense to me. hmmm... I might have to go rewatch that episode to see if my memories and impressions stand up to a re-watch.
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                  Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                  ...and did he even speak to Daniel or Teal'c? Or was all his conversation with his little beloved?
                  Actually, most of his conversation was with Ba'al, the rest was split pretty equally between Daniel, Sam, and Mitchell (4 or 5 lines each). I think Teal'c got one. Maybe. But Teal'c having nothing to do is pretty standard.

                  Um. That's all, I have nothing of any real value to add.
                  Originally posted by Callista
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                    Originally posted by Ashizuri View Post
                    Actually, most of his conversation was with Ba'al, the rest was split pretty equally between Daniel, Sam, and Mitchell (4 or 5 lines each). I think Teal'c got one. Maybe. But Teal'c having nothing to do is pretty standard.

                    Um. That's all, I have nothing of any real value to add.
                    You might be right (I don't have Continuum, I borrowed it to watch when it came out but wasn't impressed enough to buy a copy) but I don't remember the Jack in our timeline talking to Daniel at all. The Alt Jack did.

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                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      Yeah well, I guess I can live with being demented. I wouldn't deny that he's good looking, just not attractive to me. And it's not an age thing either, because I can think of plenty of older guys I find attractive.
                      Good looking, charismatic, and, no, not an age thing. But he doesn't make me weak at the knees either.

                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      Personally I don't think you're projecting. I always got the same impression. I thought that while Sam might sort of smirk and roll her eyes at Jack's goofier humor when they're working or having lunch in the commissary or whatever, that it would get on her nerves if she had to deal with it in a romantic partner. I mean, I have several friend whose sense of humor can be a bit grating to me, and while that certainly doesn't prevent me from being friends with them, it would drive me bonkers if we were romantically involved.
                      My best friend is married to the 'class clown' and one of my exes was, which is why he's an ex. Trust me, it gets really tedious, really fast.

                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      And yes, I agree that Jack was definitely getting sillier in the later seasons. And in Continuum. *shudders*
                      As pointed out, my memories of Continuum are a bit hazy, but I recall, at the time I watched it, being completely unimpressed with both the script and acting for the Jack in our timeline.

                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      Lol. Yeah, I do think that TJ/Young is an interesting counter-point to S/J. Maybe I'm just a cynic about relationships, but I really do prefer seeing this disastrous relationship on SGU than the sappier, less complicated version they tried to give us with S/J (or even McKay/Keller, if we're comparing other relationships on Stargate). So I'm glad they're going down a completely different road on SGU and think it's a good move writing-wise. Of course, if TPTB somehow have TJ and Young miraculously working things out and playing happy families by the end of the series, I'll eat my words.
                      Still haven't even seen a single episode of Universe, not helped by the TV gathering dust at the moment. I started watching Supernatural, seen half way through the first season, don't yet get what all the fuss is about, chalk it up as another TV show which doesn't engage me.
                      I really am a poor media fan, I still haven't found the time or energy to watch Firefly or BSG, both of which have pedigrees which pretty much guarantee that I will enjoy them.
                      On holiday next week, I'll drop Firefly into the suitcase, I can watch it if it rains all week and I run out of books.

                      Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                      I have a tough time with certain cliches, and this is one of them. For some reason it just doesn't work for me in this case. Although, maybe that's partially because of how Sam is written early in the seasons? It's been a while since I watched season 1, but I seem to recall liking the way Sam handled Jonas Hanson. From what I recall, she stood up to him, admitted her past mistakes, and handled the whole situation very confidently. So then later in the series when she seems more hesitant around Jack and unsure of her own mind with Pete, it just doesn't make as much sense to me. hmmm... I might have to go rewatch that episode to see if my memories and impressions stand up to a re-watch.
                      People who are emotionally handicapped tend to be like that in all their social interactions and romantic relationships. Sam was clearly shown to be quite capable in her dealings with Jonas, even though she was obviously much younger and much less experienced when she was engaged to him. And poorly written as Pete was, Sam acted completely normally in her relationship with him. No, it's only Jack, uberman, alpha above all alpha men which turns her into a simpering school ma'am, robs her of any dignity, common sense, and even her taste in clothes. Bizarre and silly characterization of both characters and totally unnecessary.
                      There is a place out there for a TV show with a brilliant scientist/soldier attracted to her C/O and him to her. And their actions, the consequences, the fall out would make an interesting drama. Possibly has a place as a C or D plot on a Acton/Adventure SF show, if well written.
                      As it was shown on SG1, and particularly when it was bumped up to be an A or B plot, it fails miserably and detracts from what kept the show on the air for 10 year, makes the characters look inconsistent, foolish, even pathetic at times. And that's a shame and a waste of good characters and screen time.

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                        Firefly's worth it for sure.....Supernatural - again like you I don't get the fuss....boring storylines, very uninspiring main characters and not that pretty to me (yep I have to have the shallow side of teh pretties in my male leads most times ) and dark and dismal lighting....tried a million times to get into it and just can't....


                        Continuum stands out to me in only two ways....Michael was so very beautiful in it and Daniel's plight should have been "fleshed out" further (excuse the pun) and our timeline Jack was nauseating in his silliness.....and as for that stupid obscure "Moonbase" reference at the end?....just why?...
                        cryptic? Nope - romantic? Nope - simply a plain annoying and WTF moment? Yep!....


                        Alt.Timeline!Jack should have been in it more and his relationship with the other three given more time.....sadly I think they over-hyped the fact that RDA was going to be in this when he wasn't for very much time, and spent a hell of a lot of time and money doing their, admittedly very beautiful, Arctic shots.....


                        And for S/J ship in it?....well to me any attempts at it were as clumsy as the most clumsiest person clopping around with big boots on in Clumsey Town....



                        Deeds xx
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                          Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                          Yeah well, I guess I can live with being demented. I wouldn't deny that he's good looking, just not attractive to me. And it's not an age thing either, because I can think of plenty of older guys I find attractive.



                          Personally I don't think you're projecting. I always got the same impression. I thought that while Sam might sort of smirk and roll her eyes at Jack's goofier humor when they're working or having lunch in the commissary or whatever, that it would get on her nerves if she had to deal with it in a romantic partner. I mean, I have several friend whose sense of humor can be a bit grating to me, and while that certainly doesn't prevent me from being friends with them, it would drive me bonkers if we were romantically involved.

                          And yes, I agree that Jack was definitely getting sillier in the later seasons. And in Continuum. *shudders*



                          Lol. Yeah, I do think that TJ/Young is an interesting counter-point to S/J. Maybe I'm just a cynic about relationships, but I really do prefer seeing this disastrous relationship on SGU than the sappier, less complicated version they tried to give us with S/J (or even McKay/Keller, if we're comparing other relationships on Stargate). So I'm glad they're going down a completely different road on SGU and think it's a good move writing-wise. Of course, if TPTB somehow have TJ and Young miraculously working things out and playing happy families by the end of the series, I'll eat my words.







                          I have a tough time with certain cliches, and this is one of them. For some reason it just doesn't work for me in this case. Although, maybe that's partially because of how Sam is written early in the seasons? It's been a while since I watched season 1, but I seem to recall liking the way Sam handled Jonas Hanson. From what I recall, she stood up to him, admitted her past mistakes, and handled the whole situation very confidently. So then later in the series when she seems more hesitant around Jack and unsure of her own mind with Pete, it just doesn't make as much sense to me. hmmm... I might have to go rewatch that episode to see if my memories and impressions stand up to a re-watch.
                          I do agree with this, but in their defense, Sam is a different person - she got an 'upgrade' in the form of a memory dump from Jolinar. That's gotta have changed her personality. Even if she doesn't remember most of it explicitly, all those memories must affect her. How old was Jolinar? 1000-2000 years? That's a lot of memories compared to 30 years of Sam. It's a wonder she's Sam at all!

                          Of course, Jolinar didn't exactly strike me as the whimpering damsel in distress! She seemed more than capable of looking out for herself (and had a 100 year relationship as well as used sex/seduction to flee from Netu, so...)

                          So...if anything, that should have made Sam an even more self-assured person!
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                            Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                            You might be right (I don't have Continuum, I borrowed it to watch when it came out but wasn't impressed enough to buy a copy) but I don't remember the Jack in our timeline talking to Daniel at all. The Alt Jack did.

                            FF
                            Well, the couple times they talk it's clown!Jack so I can easily see how you might not recall it.

                            Daniel says something about them listing Ba'als crimes and Jack responds to him with something along the lines of "WTF! That's what they've been singing about?" and the four OG team members have a quick "where is Vala?" conversation and Jack's input is something about bathrooms on a pyramid. I'm pretty sure he was part of a conversation at the end with Mitchell and Daniel about how the extraction ceremony was a bit lackluster.

                            (It's not the greatest film [needed more Alt!Jack and Daniel/Sam/Teal'c], but it's what finally cemented my Mitchell fangirlishness so I had to get it it.)
                            Originally posted by Callista
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                            Originally posted by HPMom
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                              Originally posted by BlueMushroom View Post
                              I do agree with this, but in their defense, Sam is a different person - she got an 'upgrade' in the form of a memory dump from Jolinar. That's gotta have changed her personality. Even if she doesn't remember most of it explicitly, all those memories must affect her. How old was Jolinar? 1000-2000 years? That's a lot of memories compared to 30 years of Sam. It's a wonder she's Sam at all!

                              Of course, Jolinar didn't exactly strike me as the whimpering damsel in distress! She seemed more than capable of looking out for herself (and had a 100 year relationship as well as used sex/seduction to flee from Netu, so...)

                              So...if anything, that should have made Sam an even more self-assured person!
                              I really liked the Jolinar stuff, not for the romantic element but for the SFnal stuff. Symbiosis and all that entailed, I thought the Tok’ra were criminally under utilized and Sam’s connection with them, through Jacob and Jolinar, sadly diminished in later seasons.
                              Teal’c had the Jaffa, Daniel the Ancients, Jack the Asgard and Sam the Tok’ra, each of them had a unique connection to an important group of allies. Teal’c and Daniel both got the better resolutions to those plotlines, I really liked the Jaffa not getting a fairytale ending; going to being independent from where they start out in season one is hard and is shown as such. I think I preferred the Ancients when they were still mysterious, as in the early stories, it’s like Wolverine in the Xmen, the more you know, the less interesting he became.

                              Spoiler:
                              I remember when Heather first calls him Logan and Kurt does a double take. And they had been team mates for years by then. Sorry, I digress, re-reading early issues of Uncanny at the moment.


                              Of course, in later seasons, Jack and the Asgard was gone and Sam and the Tok’ra. But they had each other, who needs anything else (like, oh, interesting plotlines which move the overall SG1 story further along)?

                              Originally posted by Ashizuri View Post
                              Well, the couple times they talk it's clown!Jack so I can easily see how you might not recall it.

                              Daniel says something about them listing Ba'als crimes and Jack responds to him with something along the lines of "WTF! That's what they've been singing about?" and the four OG team members have a quick "where is Vala?" conversation and Jack's input is something about bathrooms on a pyramid. I'm pretty sure he was part of a conversation at the end with Mitchell and Daniel about how the extraction ceremony was a bit lackluster.

                              (It's not the greatest film [needed more Alt!Jack and Daniel/Sam/Teal'c], but it's what finally cemented my Mitchell fangirlishness so I had to get it it.)
                              Oh, yes to the bolded, yes indeed.
                              There was a germ of a good idea there, but it didn’t play out and I’m so, so bored by the old kill-the-team-big-honking-reset-button thing.

                              FF
                              sigpic

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                                Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                                Yeah well, I guess I can live with being demented. I wouldn't deny that he's good looking, just not attractive to me. And it's not an age thing either, because I can think of plenty of older guys I find attractive.

                                Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                                Good looking, charismatic, and, no, not an age thing. But he doesn't make me weak at the knees either.
                                yep, everyone has different tastes. I found RDA more attractive in his O'Neill years than in the McGyver ones.

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