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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
    Thank you, honey, and trust me to get into a show 8+ years after it finished.

    Inara compared to Sam is the interesting thing.
    Inara is a professional woman (in all the meanings of the word ) attracted to an inappropriate man. He flummoxes her, flusters her and brings her to tears but even so, Firefly's PTB treat her with more dignity and realism than Sam was shown. Which is a bit telling on the comparative complexities and subtleties of how relationships are handled on the two shows.
    I should watch Battlestar next, as my gut instinct tells me that TPTB think they have a bit of Roslin/Adama going on with Sam/Jack. Snicker. Only in their wildest dreams.

    FF
    No no no no... Roslin/Adama was much more complicated, intricate, and downright believable. They share something beyond just pining for one another, and some of the best moments have been utterly fantastic between them. None of this weeping and need for laxatives Sam/Jack has.

    BSG had its problems, but relationships were for hte most part very believable and awesome. BSG's ability to sell romance was much much better than ANYTHING the SG PTB had produced as of yet. I'd rather watch Roslin/Adama to Sam/Jack any day of the week.
    Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
    Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

    Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
    Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

    Comment


      Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
      No no no no... Roslin/Adama was much more complicated, intricate, and downright believable. They share something beyond just pining for one another, and some of the best moments have been utterly fantastic between them. None of this weeping and need for laxatives Sam/Jack has.

      BSG had its problems, but relationships were for hte most part very believable and awesome. BSG's ability to sell romance was much much better than ANYTHING the SG PTB had produced as of yet. I'd rather watch Roslin/Adama to Sam/Jack any day of the week.
      I don't doubt that at all, I might not have seen Galactica, but I've seen it's progenitors; I know what they are capable of.
      There was a photo about, 2-3 years ago, from one of the big bashes (Comic Con or Dragon Con or the like) with RDA and Amanda with her dark hair. Lovely photo of both of them (though still no smile from RDA ) and I thought, aha, TPTB, I see what you did there, nice try but a good relationship depends on more than a couple looking good together. Given the looks of the casts of all TV shows these days, looking good together is the least of your problems. It takes the convincing build up and realistic characterisation to make a relationship believable, they had 10+ years to sell Sam/Jack and failed. Too late now.

      FF
      sigpic

      Comment


        Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
        No no no no... Roslin/Adama was much more complicated, intricate, and downright believable.
        I'm not a major BSG fan, but I do agree that R/A was believable.

        Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
        There was a photo about, 2-3 years ago, from one of the big bashes (Comic Con or Dragon Con or the like) with RDA and Amanda with her dark hair. Lovely photo of both of them (though still no smile from RDA ) and I thought, aha, TPTB, I see what you did there, nice try but a good relationship depends on more than a couple looking good together. Given the looks of the casts of all TV shows these days, looking good together is the least of your problems. It takes the convincing build up and realistic characterisation to make a relationship believable, they had 10+ years to sell Sam/Jack and failed. Too late now.

        FF
        Yeah, it's like the fact that they look good and in RL seem to have an easy, fun friendship was enough in PTB's minds to make a couple on screen. There's only so much AT could do with what was written. And who knows what was in the script/directing for RDA? And at times I'm not sure if RDA in his non-responses was going for subtlety or was being passive aggressive in his acting. I don't think he was a fan of S/J.

        Comment


          Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
          I'm not a major BSG fan, but I do agree that R/A was believable.

          Yeah, it's like the fact that they look good and in RL seem to have an easy, fun friendship was enough in PTB's minds to make a couple on screen. There's only so much AT could do with what was written. And who knows what was in the script/directing for RDA? And at times I'm not sure if RDA in his non-responses was going for subtlety or was being passive aggressive in his acting. I don't think he was a fan of S/J.
          There's no short cut to sensible, mature writing; chemistry and looks will only carry a proto-relationship so far.

          Amanda is a trooper, a skilled actor and a superb team player; watching her try when RDA and the director gave her nothing to act against frustrated the hell out of me. I think one of my first posts here was saying that. That RDA is a much more clever and subtle actor than some people credit him with being. That Uncomfortable!O'Neill could not be accidental; it was too often and too, too noticeable.
          We'll never know, but it holed the 'ship below the water line before it really started and it never recovered.

          FF
          sigpic

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            Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
            <snip> trust me to get into a show 8+ years after it finished. <snip>
            Well, I got into Farscape about four years after it was canceled. So I sympathise.

            I've been saying for over a year that I would give Firefly a go... still haven't gotten around to it. Maybe I should make that my new show now that I've run out of Doctor Who.

            Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
            Yeah, it's like the fact that they look good and in RL seem to have an easy, fun friendship was enough in PTB's minds to make a couple on screen. There's only so much AT could do with what was written. And who knows what was in the script/directing for RDA? And at times I'm not sure if RDA in his non-responses was going for subtlety or was being passive aggressive in his acting. I don't think he was a fan of S/J.
            I frequently wonder this. Sometimes I get the feeling that RDA didn't take SG-1 all that seriously in the later years. But yes, I could see the passive-aggressive angle. Obviously that's pure speculation, but I often cringe on re-watching some of his scenes in SG-1. And I know he's a better actor than that (Abyss and Meridian prove how good he can be when he has good material and gives it his all). On the other hand, I'm sure that the writing had something to do with it... unless he asked the writers to change some things, he was pretty much stuck with some poor scenes and inconsistent characterization, IMO.
            Chief of the GGP (Gateworld Grammar Police). Punctuation is your friend. Use it!

            Great happy armies shall be gathered and trained to oppose all who embrace doubt. In the name of Hope, ships shall be built to carry our disciples out amongst the stars, and we will spread Optimism to all the doubters. The power of the Optimi will be felt far and wide, and the pessimists shall become positive-thinkers.
            Hallowed are the Optimi.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
              No no no no... Roslin/Adama was much more complicated, intricate, and downright believable. <<snippety snip and then >> I'd rather watch Roslin/Adama to Sam/Jack any day of the week.
              Roslin/Adama was well-written, interesting and complex. It was also believable and a true story arc, something Jack/Sam never was. I maintain to this day that the writers/PTB simply played with the pairing; dropped it in to tease the fanbase every now and again. It was never a true, planned arc. If it was, they'd have given it some sort of ending. They had every chance and they didn't. *shrugs* I've always thought it mattered a whole lot more to the fans (shippers, I mean) than it did to the show writers and runners.



              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
              And who knows what was in the script/directing for RDA? And at times I'm not sure if RDA in his non-responses was going for subtlety or was being passive aggressive in his acting. I don't think he was a fan of S/J.
              I don't think he was either. He never came across as one in interviews (always pretty laissez faire about the ship), and he was pretty snarky about it that con earlier this year. I'd never characterised it that way before, but passive-aggressive is a pretty good description. Go RDA!

              Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
              Sometimes I get the feeling that RDA didn't take SG-1 all that seriously in the later years. But yes, I could see the passive-aggressive angle. Obviously that's pure speculation, but I often cringe on re-watching some of his scenes in SG-1. And I know he's a better actor than that (Abyss and Meridian prove how good he can be when he has good material and gives it his all). On the other hand, I'm sure that the writing had something to do with it... unless he asked the writers to change some things, he was pretty much stuck with some poor scenes and inconsistent characterization, IMO.
              I've cringed right along with you at times, and I'm a big RDA fan. When he gets behind a scene, he's magic ... Abyss and Meridian contained some of his best work in the series. And oh look who he's acting against principally in those eps. Just sayin'

              Comment


                Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post

                I've cringed right along with you at times, and I'm a big RDA fan. When he gets behind a scene, he's magic ... Abyss and Meridian contained some of his best work in the series. And oh look who he's acting against principally in those eps. Just sayin'
                I do think RDA is a better actor than he usually gets credit for. But I think like anyone, he needs good writing and directing. I think sometimes he may have needed his feet held to the fire a bit.

                Jack-Daniel was definitely the dynamic the writers excelled at and I think RDA & MS enjoyed it too. Though I think it was a shadow of its former self in the Daniel as Prior episode. Imho, by then we were with dumbJack & snarky Daniel

                Comment


                  Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                  I do think RDA is a better actor than he usually gets credit for. But I think like anyone, he needs good writing and directing. I think sometimes he may have needed his feet held to the fire a bit.

                  Jack-Daniel was definitely the dynamic the writers excelled at and I think RDA & MS enjoyed it too. Though I think it was a shadow of its former self in the Daniel as Prior episode. Imho, by then we were with dumbJack & snarky Daniel
                  It truly was their best work, both the actors and the writers, but that's pretty sad when you think about it, at least for the writers.

                  Passive Aggressive definitely feels like RDA. Kinda like Sean Connery in some ways

                  I didn't like where they took the characters in the later seasons we lost them in the sudden kneejerk reaction of "Hey the fans like this, lets give them too much of it!"

                  Personally, i would have loved to see Daniel affected by his time as a Prior. It's such a transfomative change that i don't believe he doesn't have hangups about it.
                  Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
                  Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

                  Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
                  Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                    Personally, i would have loved to see Daniel affected by his time as a Prior. It's such a transfomative change that i don't believe he doesn't have hangups about it.
                    Oh yes. The fallout from that must have been difficult and life-changing. SG1 was never good at following up on the aftermath of anything.

                    Daniel as Prior; Jack after Abyss; Sam after Jolinar ... the list goes on.

                    Thank heavens for fanfic. The righter of many wrongs and the filler in of many gaps.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                      Roslin/Adama was well-written, interesting and complex. It was also believable and a true story arc, something Jack/Sam never was.
                      Agreed. It was a great relationship on BSG and well-developed.

                      They didn't know what they were doing with S/J. No one ever seemed to be on the same page with that one. They toyed around with the idea and with shippers. I have a stinking suspicion it might finally get some kind of actual acknowledgment in the third movie IF the third movie ever gets made.
                      IMO always implied.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                        Well, I got into Farscape about four years after it was canceled. So I sympathise.

                        I've been saying for over a year that I would give Firefly a go... still haven't gotten around to it. Maybe I should make that my new show now that I've run out of Doctor Who.
                        It's very, very good (and has some really pretty men in it, why yes, I can be that shallow who'd'a thunk it?).
                        Well worth an hour or two of your time.

                        Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                        I frequently wonder this. Sometimes I get the feeling that RDA didn't take SG-1 all that seriously in the later years. But yes, I could see the passive-aggressive angle. Obviously that's pure speculation, but I often cringe on re-watching some of his scenes in SG-1. And I know he's a better actor than that (Abyss and Meridian prove how good he can be when he has good material and gives it his all). On the other hand, I'm sure that the writing had something to do with it... unless he asked the writers to change some things, he was pretty much stuck with some poor scenes and inconsistent characterization, IMO.
                        RDA is, from all I've seen of him, a very humble man, not a difficult actor and despite his star status, not overly fond of throwing his weight around (unless it's with good reason, such as wanting to cut back his schedule to be with his daughter, for example).
                        And I'm sure that, like Amanda, he's aware that some fans like the proto-Sam/Jack relationship, but his lack on enthusiasm for obvious S/J is so clear in his acting choices and in interviews, he always brings up respecting the USAF.
                        Which is why I get annoyed with TPTB; one of their principal actors shows no enthusiasm for their little charade, once it becomes overt and begins to impact on the show, RDA, like the rest of us, didn't seem to have any problems when the Sam/Jack thing was background and kept in it's place. But TPTB pushed forward, even after it becomes clear that Sam and Sir is not the greatest love story since the Bard thought up the Montagues and Capulets.

                        Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                        Roslin/Adama was well-written, interesting and complex. It was also believable and a true story arc, something Jack/Sam never was. I maintain to this day that the writers/PTB simply played with the pairing; dropped it in to tease the fanbase every now and again. It was never a true, planned arc. If it was, they'd have given it some sort of ending. They had every chance and they didn't. *shrugs* I've always thought it mattered a whole lot more to the fans (shippers, I mean) than it did to the show writers and runners.
                        Exactly. Wishy-washy, uneven and contrived and irrelevant to the real SG1 story.

                        Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post

                        I don't think he was either. He never came across as one in interviews (always pretty laissez faire about the ship), and he was pretty snarky about it that con earlier this year. I'd never characterised it that way before, but passive-aggressive is a pretty good description. Go RDA!
                        Too polite and too good an actor to put up a fuss, he scuppers the sorry affair in the only way an actor really can; by not playing into it every time he thinks TPTB have pushed S/J too far. And not once, but again and again in later seasons.

                        Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                        I've cringed right along with you at times, and I'm a big RDA fan. When he gets behind a scene, he's magic ... Abyss and Meridian contained some of his best work in the series. And oh look who he's acting against principally in those eps. Just sayin'
                        To quote a wise man:-

                        Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                        I do think RDA is a better actor than he usually gets credit for. But I think like anyone, he needs good writing and directing. I think sometimes he may have needed his feet held to the fire a bit.

                        Jack-Daniel was definitely the dynamic the writers excelled at and I think RDA & MS enjoyed it too. Though I think it was a shadow of its former self in the Daniel as Prior episode. Imho, by then we were with dumbJack & snarky Daniel
                        There were flashes of it in The Shroud, particularly my beloved 'Sleepyhead' ad lib, but, yes, even fabulous actors can lose their edge without the right script and tight directing.

                        Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                        It truly was their best work, both the actors and the writers, but that's pretty sad when you think about it, at least for the writers.

                        Passive Aggressive definitely feels like RDA. Kinda like Sean Connery in some ways

                        I didn't like where they took the characters in the later seasons we lost them in the sudden kneejerk reaction of "Hey the fans like this, lets give them too much of it!"

                        Personally, i would have loved to see Daniel affected by his time as a Prior. It's such a transfomative change that i don't believe he doesn't have hangups about it.
                        So very true, the bolded.

                        Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                        Oh yes. The fallout from that must have been difficult and life-changing. SG1 was never good at following up on the aftermath of anything.

                        Daniel as Prior; Jack after Abyss; Sam after Jolinar ... the list goes on.

                        Thank heavens for fanfic. The righter of many wrongs and the filler in of many gaps.
                        Just not in the show's nature, sadly. Bless fanfic, talented fanfic writers, subtext and our imaginations.

                        Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
                        Agreed. It was a great relationship on BSG and well-developed.

                        They didn't know what they were doing with S/J. No one ever seemed to be on the same page with that one. They toyed around with the idea and with shippers. I have a stinking suspicion it might finally get some kind of actual acknowledgment in the third movie IF the third movie ever gets made.
                        A more cohesive, adult treatment of Sam and Jack, less destructive to the team dynamic, less intrusive to the real show, I wouldn't have batted an eye, never have done with a het relationship in any show prior to SG1. But poor writing, puzzling and inconsistent characterisation made it such an irritation, so hard to just ignore. And that's all down to TPTB.

                        I wouldn't hold your breath on the film shooting this year, or seeing the light of day before 2012 at the earliest. Every day which passes, more hard core fans drift away, all the casual fans are already long gone and the general viewing public have new shows to watch.
                        I'll be long gone by the time the next film happens, if it ever does, so I won't care if they try to resurrect the dead horse for one last whipping, selfish, I know, but true none the less.

                        FF
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                          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                          Daniel as Prior; Jack after Abyss; Sam after Jolinar ... the list goes on.
                          Don't even get me started on the later trivialization of Ba'al.

                          oh, and you think there would be consequences addressed w/ Daniel after he came back after RepliCarter Killed him & he went to the WaffleHouse. I still think Anubis did something to him.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                            Don't even get me started on the later trivialization of Ba'al.

                            oh, and you think there would be consequences addressed w/ Daniel after he came back after RepliCarter Killed him & he went to the WaffleHouse. I still think Anubis did something to him.
                            Made him a little more cold blooded maybe?

                            In any case, that episode does deserve some merit. It finally ended the horrible dreck of Sam anc Jack longingly looking at each other and praying for laxatives.
                            Originally posted by Apostle's Message Redux
                            Shepard understood. Given the situation, he wasn't sure that exposing the planet to this kind of secret was smart. Miranda had regaled him with stories of how horrible 20th century Earth sounded in her history lessons and it made him leery. "I agree, god knows what would happen if Grunt got loose."

                            Joker snorted and muttered loudly. "Run! It's The Incredible Hulk! Kill it with fire!"
                            Read the story ---- Apostle's Message Redux, ME/SG Crossover

                            Comment


                              ^ Fraiser: Colonel O'Neill, you seem ill.
                              Jack: I'm fine, doc.
                              Fraiser: Then why are you making that face? Have you been eating your Activia?

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                                Don't even get me started on the later trivialization of Ba'al.
                                You'd think they'd know by now that with any good villain, less is more. We had the same problem with Gul Dukat and Kai Winn on DS9, though not to the same degree. Good villains are used sparingly.

                                Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                                oh, and you think there would be consequences addressed w/ Daniel after he came back after RepliCarter Killed him & he went to the WaffleHouse. I still think Anubis did something to him.
                                There was some scope for some wonderful Sam and Daniel angst after RepliCarter. And I still think she was Sam's nemesis, not Daniel's, Sam should have had the honour of the coup de grace.

                                Originally posted by Aragon101 View Post
                                Made him a little more cold blooded maybe?

                                In any case, that episode does deserve some merit. It finally ended the horrible dreck of Sam anc Jack longingly looking at each other and praying for laxatives.
                                Any SF show which has two A threads, one being the saving of the galaxy, the other being the turgid attempt at romance between two principals, and gives both plotlines the same emphasis, is doing some thing wrong with it's priorities and what it thinks it's core audience wants.
                                Daniel gets to save the universe. Sam get's to wear a twinset and stutter at interrupting her boss' BBQ. Obviously, both plotlines are equally important and meaningful. Yeah, right, don't make me laugh.

                                FF
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