Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Uber]

Wow...lots of strong feelings about last night's episode...many of which I shared until Agent Dark found and showed me this LJ written by someone who loves Sam just as much as we do. I rewatched it afterward with different eyes and found myself enjoying it more.

http://surrealphantast.livejournal.c...64.html#cutid1

And another thing...

Spoiler:

Regardless of whether or not Sam was stalling for time...which it's clear she was by what she said and did...I just don't have a problem with Sam deeming the lives of hostages to be more important than a database of gate addresses Anubis already had and couldn't make use of. Ba'al has a pretty huge haystack through which he must find a needle...a needle, if found, only means the loss of the Ori and the Ancients. I just wouldn't care if Ba'al got rid of the lot and the Ancients would deserve their fate for refusing to step in and prevent a lot of what's happened.

At any rate, Ba'als' got a LOT of addresses to check out. I've come up with some fun mental scenarios as he goes through them:

What if the answer for the weapon is located on the Crystal Skull world? Good luck getting Quetlezcoatl to open up to you, snake boy. Of course if it is there, then they'd have a reason to return to find and talk to Nick about it and that would mean revisiting an old plot! *gasp*

Here's another fun idea. What if the first planet Ba'al explores is the Entity planet? They send one of their floating MALPs a la Heroes, and the Entity beings sink a few more Ba'als. *snicker*

So while this will never be a favorite episode, it's not nearly the nightmare I started to make it in my mind. I'm so ready for the writers to screw Sam over that I'm finding problems that don't exist or making more out of something than there needs to be.

I'll say it again...

Spoiler:

SAM WAS RIGHT to put the lives of the hostages over a massive database of gateaddresses that may or may not have a single address with the location of a weapon that could get rid of ascended beings...including of course their mortal enemies, the Ori. Whether they take out the Ori or Ba'al does...it's all good.

Good on her for making that call and stalling for time.

[Uber]

and i can see that. My issue is, she never called his bluff. he just threatened and she caved.

Spoiler:

and the sam of a few seasons ago woulda downloaded a virus, the illegally downloaded eps of the simpsons, felger's internet history, something other than giving him what he needed

Spoiler:

It didn't look like that was an option, Skydiver or I would agree with you. Ba'al somehow had set everything up so that all Sam had to do was enter the code in.

It seems the best she could do without him fully catching on was slow down the download to a snail's pace...again, stalling for time.

Further, I don't think he was bluffing. I think he would have taken out a hostage every 10 minutes until she complied. She prevented a bloodbath, doing exactly what Landry did and putting the hostages lives first.

[Mandysg1]

Wow...lots of strong feelings about last night's episode...many of which I shared until Agent Dark found and showed me this LJ written by someone who loves Sam just as much as we do. I rewatched it afterward with different eyes and found myself enjoying it more.

http://surrealphantast.livejournal.c...64.html#cutid1

And another thing...

Spoiler:

Regardless of whether or not Sam was stalling for time...which it's clear she was by what she said and did...I just don't have a problem with Sam deeming the lives of hostages to be more important than a database of gate addresses Anubis already had and couldn't make use of. Ba'al has a pretty huge haystack through which he must find a needle...a needle, if found, only means the loss of the Ori and the Ancients. I just wouldn't care if Ba'al got rid of the lot and the Ancients would deserve their fate for refusing to step in and prevent a lot of what's happened.

At any rate, Ba'als' got a LOT of addresses to check out. I've come up with some fun mental scenarios as he goes through them:

What if the answer for the weapon is located on the Crystal Skull world? Good luck getting Quetlezcoatl to open up to you, snake boy. Of course if it is there, then they'd have a reason to return to find and talk to Nick about it and that would mean revisiting an old plot! *gasp*

Here's another fun idea. What if the first planet Ba'al explores is the Entity planet? They send one of their floating MALPs a la Heroes, and the Entity beings sink a few more Ba'als. *snicker*

So while this will never be a favorite episode, it's not nearly the nightmare I started to make it in my mind. I'm so ready for the writers to screw Sam over that I'm finding problems that don't exist or making more out of something than there needs to be.

I'll say it again...

Spoiler:

SAM WAS RIGHT to put the lives of the hostages over a massive database of gateaddresses that may or may not have a single address with the location of a weapon that could get rid of ascended beings...including of course their mortal enemies, the Ori. Whether they take out the Ori or Ba'al does...it's all good.
Good on her for making that call and stalling for time.

Spoiler:

The Sam of the past S1-8 would have found a way to sabotage the list as mentioned by other posters. Now its my fear that they will use this as an excuse 'that she negotiated with a terrorist' to deem her unfit for commmand and thus justify Cam's leadership They are just ruining Sam's character IMO to justify the new show

[astrogeologist]

and i can see that. My issue is, she never called his bluff. he just threatened and she caved.

Spoiler:

and the sam of a few seasons ago woulda downloaded a virus, the illegally downloaded eps of the simpsons, felger's internet history, something other than giving him what he needed

*Love* your options, Sky! *Those* would have been perfect!

[Uber]

Spoiler:

The Sam of the past S1-8 would have found a way to sabotage the list as mentioned by other posters. Now its my fear that they will use this as an excuse 'that she negotiated with a terrorist' to deem her unfit for commmand and thus justify Cam's leadership They are just ruining Sam's character IMO to justify the new show

Spoiler:

Sometimes there isn't a way.

You're right...if Sam had been able to, she would have sabotaged the disk or the download. The fact that she didn't do that indicates that the opportunity didn't present itself.

It looked to me as though she was doing what she could and stalling for time, giving the SGC time to bust in and contain the situation. I'll bet she wondered what was taking so long even, since she didn't know about the plan to use symbiote poisoning.

So she kept the situation to a minimum of casualties and Ba'als walked away with a massive haystack that may or may not contain the address of a planet they want to find.

She put the lives of the hostages over a blizzard of data. She made the right call.

[jckfan55]

and i can see that. My issue is, she never called his bluff. he just threatened and she caved.

Spoiler:

and the sam of a few seasons ago woulda downloaded a virus, the illegally downloaded eps of the simpsons, felger's internet history, something other than giving him what he needed

True, the Sam we know and love would have

Spoiler:

come up with something like a virus or encryption or something. But I don't think Baal was bluffing about killing the hostages. And it was in character that she'd sacrifice herself, but not others. I was thinking she also gave in b/c she thought they'd catch the Baals before they got away. But on reflection, shouldn't she of all people have seen the signal boosting potential of multiple locator chips before she did?

There were a number of plot issues, but I don't think Sam came off that badly. Maybe my expectations have just become very low.

[Uber]

True, the Sam we know and love would have

Spoiler:

come up with something like a virus or encryption or something. But I don't think Baal was bluffing about killing the hostages. And it was in character that she'd sacrifice herself, but not others. I was thinking she also gave in b/c she thought they'd catch the Baals before they got away. But on reflection, shouldn't she of all people have seen the signal boosting potential of multiple locator chips before she did?

There were a number of plot issues, but I don't think Sam came off that badly. Maybe my expectations have just become very low.

Would she have come out of that looking better had she

Spoiler:

allowed the hostages to be killed off?

One of the Ba'als was leaving right then to kill Barrett. He cocked his gun and headed for the door.

She had a split second to make a decision...and she chose to save the lives of the hostages over giving Ba'al a ton of worthless information for him to sort through and maybe find the ascended being weapon before they did. Maybe. But then, like Sam said, Anubis had this information and never found it.

I just don't have a problem with her putting the lives of others ahead of a massive database of gateaddresses.

The alternative would have been devastating and Sam would have been put through the ringer more if she, who had been making a point of how the cavalry was about to ride in, didn't bother stalling for time.

And again...this is Sam we're talking about. If she had been able to damage or sabotage the disk or data, she would have. So clearly the opportunity to do so never presented itself.

[binkpmmc]

They can't do it ... they just used all their Ba'als up in Insiders.

uuuhhhh -- they haven't had any since mid-season 7!! (You cannot put that out there while I am here lurking and expect me to just pass it up at this stage of the game and when I hold such contempt for the PKTS.)

Hope all of you are doing well. I have read some of the entries for last nights ep (here as well as elsewhere) and sounds like a mixed bag of some good stuff and then a real shi_-kicker at the end. Where is the Sam Carter of seasons 1-6 1/2 - I really wish they would get her back. I really am glad I stopped watching - until they stop destroying the Carter character (which likely will be never but someone please let me know if they do) I am out.

Perhaps, as somone said, this little crock o' crap with the codes will show up later in the season and they will let it play out that Carter ends up the hero for it (I doubt it though - can't make the new, sad-sack, little tool, who -- boo-hoo -- doesn't "control anything" - look bad so he will probably get to tbe the hewo. TPKTS have no "vision" except crapola of the week from the sound of it. 1.4s and 1.5s indeed.

See ya.

[Melora]

Spoiler:

Sometimes there isn't a way.

You're right...if Sam had been able to, she would have sabotaged the disk or the download. The fact that she didn't do that indicates that the opportunity didn't present itself.

It looked to me as though she was doing what she could and stalling for time, giving the SGC time to bust in and contain the situation. I'll bet she wondered what was taking so long even, since she didn't know about the plan to use symbiote poisoning.

So she kept the situation to a minimum of casualties and Ba'als walked away with a massive haystack that may or may not contain the address of a planet they want to find.

She put the lives of the hostages over a blizzard of data. She made the right call.

First of all, thanks Über for putting a positive spin on the episode. I was upset last night after watching it, but seeing it from your point of view has helped quell the anger a bit.

Spoilers for "Insiders":

Spoiler:

I really liked this episode up until the end. They had good team moments, good banter, and Cam admitted he wasn’t “in control of anything.” Having Vala lead a team of SFs looked pretty ridiculous. But I did enjoy Vala in this episode, especially her scenes with Sam and Teal’c.

I am still unhappy that TPTB ‘gemini-ed’ Sam again. I wish they would stop using her character to take the fall so they can set up the plot for a new story arc.

It would have been wonderful if Sam had implanted a virus in the database. But I agree with Über, there have to be times when a last-minute save is not possible. And it seems like "Insiders" was one of those times. TPTB wanted Ba'al to get the database, obviously to set up a future episode. And Sam and Barrett were designated to be the fall guys. IMO, this part of the episode could have been salvaged with just a little tweaking of the script.

In the last scene where Sam apologizes to Landry for giving Ba’al the code to access the database, couldn’t they have had her say something like: “I’m sorry, sir. I would never have given him the code if I had known they had the ability to beam out of the base.”

That way, it would explain Sam’s rationale – she gave Ba’al the code b/c she wanted to protect the lives of Barrett and the SFs, and she thought that the Ba’als would never be able to get off the base so easily.

Instead, they have her apologize (while looking very guilty) and Landry just brushes it off and says it wasn’t her fault. Just like Jack did in ‘Gemini.’ It makes it look like she did something very wrong and provides no explanations for why her actions were logical and justified. Again, evidence that TPTB could use a beta reader or at least they could think more about the ramifications of they way they write certain things in episodes.

[jckfan55]

Would she have come out of that looking better had she

Spoiler:

allowed the hostages to be killed off?

One of the Ba'als was leaving right then to kill Barrett. He cocked his gun and headed for the door.

She had a split second to make a decision...and she chose to save the lives of the hostages over giving Ba'al a ton of worthless information for him to sort through and maybe find the ascended being weapon before they did. Maybe. But then, like Sam said, Anubis had this information and never found it.

I just don't have a problem with her putting the lives of others ahead of a massive database of gateaddresses.

The alternative would have been devastating and Sam would have been put through the ringer more if she, who had been making a point of how the cavalry was about to ride in, didn't bother stalling for time.

And again...this is Sam we're talking about. If she had been able to damage or sabotage the disk or data, she would have. So clearly the opportunity to do so never presented itself.

Um, I hope you didn't read what I said as in disagreement with this. I certainly think she had to

Spoiler:

put the hostages' lives first. Particularly b/c their deaths would have been for nothing. Unfortunately the way they set it up, she wasn't able to also give Baal bad data, which means people will criticize and say she gave the store away (again). I don't think SAM did anything wrong, I just wish the scenario the writer gave her would have given her more options.

[Uber]

Um, I hope you didn't read what I said as in disagreement with this. I certainly think she had to

Spoiler:

put the hostages' lives first. Particularly b/c their deaths would have been for nothing. Unfortunately the way they set it up, she wasn't able to also give Baal bad data, which means people will criticize and say she gave the store away (again). I don't think SAM did anything wrong, I just wish the scenario the writer gave her would have given her more options.

Whoops. I didn't mean it confrontationally. LOL

Spoiler:

I was saying that with your reasoning and from what we saw, what options did she have? If she had done nothing, she would have been castigated for being heartless and allowing the hostages to be killed. As it stood, she did what she could and lives were saved.

I don't think Sam's character was sacrificed. I think it was highlighted by showing that she does what she can to save lives, she trusts in her teammates to pull through and, as Agent Dark pointed out on the Insiders thread,

Spoiler:

her stalling plan almost worked. Had the gas been released a few seconds earlier, they all would have died.

[jckfan55]

Whoops. I didn't mean it confrontationally. LOL

Spoiler:

I was saying that with your reasoning and from what we saw, what options did she have? If she had done nothing, she would have been castigated for being heartless and allowing the hostages to be killed. As it stood, she did what she could and lives were saved.

I don't think Sam's character was sacrificed. I think it was highlighted by showing that she does what she can to save lives, she trusts in her teammates to pull through and, as Agent Dark pointed out on the Insiders thread,

Spoiler:

her stalling plan almost worked. Had the gas been released a few seconds earlier, they all would have died.

[Mandysg1]

Spoiler:

All the former AF advisors watching Insiders (if they do actually still watch the show) would be screaming their heads off Nooooooooooooo!

Think about all the times they were ready to blow up the mountain with everyone inside! Sam being a seasoned AF officer, a LtC at that, has to face some tough decisions, and everyone working at the SGC, knows that given some situations their lives may be taken. Now I wouldn't have wanted the hostages to have been killed, but trading top secret information would not be an acceptable thing for an officer to do.

I know we may not agree on this Ooooober, but I still luvs ya

[astrogeologist]

OK... with regards to the changes to Stargate SG-1 and the character of Sam Carter... here's something that I've been mulling over.

Over the years, many fans have said that they 'grew up' watching and admiring the character of Sam Carter. That she modelled some of the attributes and potential that they hoped to achieve themselves one day.

Others have said that they liked having their children (especially their daughters) watch the show, because there was such a wonderful female role model in the character of Sam Carter - someone who was in a non-traditional role, accepted as an equal amongst the guys, a hero in her own right, of good character and a warm heart, but someone who also had to cope with her own vulnerabilities. (Aside: am I the only one who finds it ironic that her vulnerabilties and fallibities would *add* to her perfection....)

'T'any rate... here's the question. The character of Sam Carter has changed signficantly, and in some episodes- drastically, from what was in the first 4-5 seasons. Some changes are good, some aren't. Too much in any direction is not a positive.

So... would you still encourage young, easily-impressionable children (girls and boys) to watch Stargate, with one of the purposes being that they would get to see what women can achieve, and that women can be equally heroic alongside the leading males?

Now, I know that this is the 'Sam's A Great Character Thread' and that might make folks feel that they *have* to post wonderful lavish words of praise and endorsement for the character of Sam Carter... but, in light of the changes that the series, and the character have undergone, I do not think that blind platitudes are required, or appropriate.

Sam *Was* a Great Character. Is she still a great character? Is her character balanced appropriately, is she equally heroic amongst the lead characters? Is she someone that we should hold up as an example to young children?

My response (only read the following if you've been OK with all of the posts over the past couple of weeks)

Spoiler:

is unfortunately - 'not anymore'. I do not recommend that anyone I know watch Stargate anymore. In fact, I actively discourage it - and I explain why (discrimination, lack of continuity, lack of balance, lack of credibility - and I mean this for the entire show, as well as the character of Sam Carter). If anything, Stargate now presents a picture that is the *opposite* of what I would want a young child (girl or boy) to watch and emulate. The Alpha Lead Male Centricity and puerile humor.

Stargate created and touted a wonderfully deep and rich tapestry.
And then they proceed to forget to use it - and in fact, create new episodes that contradict that which happened in previous epsidoes. A rich and wonderful tapestry - that they don't use effectively, nor do they honor their own creation.

Nowadays, the character of Sam Carter often comes across as hapless and ineffective.. simply born along by events beyond her control or power. Perhaps there is a lot of tragic truth in such sequences of events, but it's painful to watch, not inspiring at all, and not what I'd want kids to watch and emulate. I want to see kids excited about prospects - not resigned to their shortcomings and inabilities. I want to see kids wanting to emulate someone who thinks smart, and fast, and is willing to keep trying. I haven't seen that in the character of Sam Carter in quite awhile.

Again, it's been said before, it's all about balance. SuperPerfect!Sam doesn't work, because no one is really perfect and it's not appropriate to push kids to be perfect. So, showing that Sam doesn't always have the answers is extremely instructive for the viewers, as well as rounds out her character.

But it's all about the balance. And over the past couple of years, Sam has mostly been bobbing along ineffectively. Others around her are written as coming up with the brilliant insights, while she watches. And she watches - a lot. Helpless. Hapless.

Has anyone heard anything in a script in the past couple of years that refers to how brilliant and needed she is with 'Gate technology (her very roots with the show)? Nope. She's doesn't even appear needed anymore - they can get along just fine without her, and she hasn't appeared to have contributed anything to the 'Gate tech development (at least not in an SG-1 script) recently. Pegasus Project might have some... but they played up the McKay angle so much that many folks felt sorry for him and a bit resentful of Carter's arrogance (even AT said that Carter needed to be taken down a peg after that episode).

She has not been shown as an effective leader. When it comes to making the hard decisions, she isn't the one who makes them. Either someone else does, or she is snookered by the bad guy (Replicarter, Ba'al, Corso, etc).

Carter is constantly shown deferring to others for the final decision. She isn't being shown as capable of the final authority. I am still impressed at how they portrayed her as being able to do it at the end of the Sentinel -where she disobeyed Colonel O'Neill's direct order, in an intense, immediate scene. She made a hard call, she made it on the spot, she didn't simply defer to his judgement or authority this time. And she made the right call.

We haven't seen that Carter in a long, long time.

Again, it's all about balance. And Carter's character as O'Neill's subordinate couldn't make those kind of calls very often - most of the time, she did have to do what he ordered, even if she didn't like it. But the military also expects their officers to think for themselves and to make those hard calls when it's necessary.

Carter isn't being written as a competent, authoritative officer any more. Instead, she's coming across as indecisive and lacking backbone (I'm sure that folks can write up all sorts of reasons why, but we're still left with the end result).

Carter also isn't being written as a brilliant scientist anymore. All sorts of people around her are being written as the ones who have the brilliant ideas, or the brilliant inspiration, while Carter watches (pathetically, in my eyes, because it's gone on so long).

Carter isn't being shown as a strong female character in the social settings either. Instead, she's come out on the sad, sorry end of the soap-opera-dreck. Many viewers now like and feel sorry for Pete! I certainly wouldn't want any young, impressionable young kids to watch and/or emulate the end of that bedroom scene in Chimera! Nor what came after. [the stuff before the morning was all just fine, for me]. And I have to agree with those who see Carter as pathetically pining after Jack at this point. The writing and directing and such have left her looking... oy! (and I'm *for* ship if it's done right).

It's very sad for me to say, but I wouldn't recommend that kids watch Stargate. I'd actively discourage them from it. Seasons 1-5 would be fine, but then how do you stop them from watching the following seasons? Especially Seasons 9 & 10?

This Sam Carter Thread is the only fandom that I've ever participated in. It's been a tremendous learning experience, both in an online culture, as well as in technology. The folks that I've 'met' have been, for the most part, absolutely wonderful - and I know that I am lucky to have read and exchanged posts with so many terrific people.

But... is Sam Still A Great Character? Not in these past couple of seasons. The balance is gone. The heroism is gone.

*Was* Sam a Great Character? Yes.

Could she return to being a great character? Yes.
Is that likely? Unfortunately not.

They've already gone so far down this path lately, that I don't see how their current writing could, or ever would, write and portray Carter as the admirable hero that she was once. Competent!Carter has apparently been lost in the mist of passing years. Now we have ExistingCarter bobbing along in the wake of whatever the latest episode plot is.

What I wouldn't give to see Carter heroically do something dangerous and self-sacrificing and large-scale cool!

[AGateFan]

Spoiler:

All the former AF advisors watching Insiders (if they do actually still watch the show) would be screaming their heads off Nooooooooooooo!

Think about all the times they were ready to blow up the mountain with everyone inside! Sam being a seasoned AF officer, a LtC at that, has to face some tough decisions, and everyone working at the SGC, knows that given some situations their lives may be taken. Now I wouldn't have wanted the hostages to have been killed, but trading top secret information would not be an acceptable thing for an officer to do.

I know we may not agree on this Ooooober, but I still luvs ya

Spoiler:

I wonder what will happen to the thousands of innocent people on those planets when Ba'al goes there. I am sure he will treat them all with the utmost respect and would never start murdering people to find the information he wants. But I guess thats not important as long as the SGC personel (whos job it is to risk their lives to defend others) all live.

The only good arguement is the expectation from Carter that her team had her back. But I dont know how she has that expectation with Mitchell leading the team. But that is the only excuse that makes any since. But then why was she apologizing at the end? Why werent they apologizing for failing and letting Ba'al get away?

Just like how everyone who approved the stupid plan in gemini will get a pass so will everyone here. Except Carter. This will be used as another excuse to take her out of command. Its already starting on some threads and I think it TPTB think it will make next weeks ep (When I think they will officially put Mitch in command) easier to swallow.