Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

I'll be watching all of S5 no matter how painful. So I'll let you know what happens. Right now it's like a bloody highway accident, slow down and watch for body parts in the road.

And also, they don't care what the fans think. Especially the internet fans. Which for some reason they think have totally different opinions from the "real" fans.

[Pajus]

» By the way - some brainstorming for you guys to do here as I need some help - how would have you played out the S4 season premiere? I need ideas, folks!

You know how I feel about the S4 season premiere, so here's your answer

[Scary Kitty]

» Submersion had tons of Sparky in it. I love the cute little moments between them in that episode. And Rodney is still totally their kid, or at least Lizzie's kid. And Ronon and Teyla are kids. They are all so awesome like that. Not to mention that Lizzie needs to wear that black shirt more often *g*

Lizzie + black shirt = a very happy John.

» Nor do I. In my alternate S4 Elizabeth is still leader. Carson comes back later in the season - not as a clone - because all my scenarios to introduce him in the first few eps of S4 were honestly very sloppy, rushed, and out of place.

» By the way - some brainstorming for you guys to do here as I need some help - how would have you played out the S4 season premiere? I need ideas, folks!

Version 1: the S3 finale ends differently. Rodney figures out how to reverse the beam from the Asuran satellite and send it back through the satellite's Gate to Asuras, blowing up the planet and completely destroying the Replicators forever. As a bonus, the residual energy is used to recharge the drained ZPMs that Atlantis has, giving the city a full rack of ZPMs to go kick Wraith butt. Atlantis doesn't have to leave Lantea, and Lizzie is never injured.

Version 2: Adding to SR's idea, I would've had Atlantis stay cut off from Earth longer, but the ZPM wouldn't have been drained to the danger point. They land the city safely on its new planet, Rodney comes up with the Fran Plan (ala BAMSR), and after hacking the Asuran Gate's shield, they send Fran through the Gate, she sucks up all the Replicators and Asuras goes kaboom.

Yeah, getting the Replicators out of the way is a top priority.

[Anuna]

I like your version of reality. For the S4 premier, I would have

Spoiler:

kept the touching scene with Keller and John but had her tell him the surgery was Elizabeth's only hope. Then we would have seen John alternating between trying to save the city and worrying about her. He would have bugged everybody to death asking about her, and maybe it would have ended with him sitting by her bedside waiting for her to wake up. Then in Lifeline she would have recovered.

I love that idea - I might even put it into a fic, with your permission?

Spoiler:

Heh without Torri I don't believe any Elizabeth related storry they may choose to sell. Nothing will work as well as first three seasons IMO. I won't watch GiTMo (yes I'm still calling it like that). Writing good stories is hard, chewing over cliches while listening your fans praise you... well that's lazy and irresponsible.

Back to gutter people. I can't access my own gutter stash, but I'm relying on rest of you to fulfill that. Meanwhile my enchiladas are yummy! Thank you for the advices, Eri!

[Reiko]

» Thanks for the ideas, guys! I'm really having trouble starting this - I want it to flow nicely and have character interaction. I would also like it to be Atlantis-centric - John running around the city and back to see Lizzie wake up at the end is an idea I excellently like.

» I will keep the scene with Keller actually showing she can be smart and treating John like a would-be widow. But I really have no interest in writing for Keller. But I have interesting plans for her. Getting the Replicators out of the way is also a big deal for me. They should bug off (see: die) and probe themselves

[Scary Kitty]

I'll be watching all of S5 no matter how painful. So I'll let you know what happens. Right now it's like a bloody highway accident, slow down and watch for body parts in the road.

And also, they don't care what the fans think. Especially the internet fans. Which for some reason they think have totally different opinions from the "real" fans.

Which just goes to show how backward their thinking is. Because only the real "real" fans are the ones who discuss the show on the internet, and even more importantly to the bean counters at the studio, spend money on merchandise.

[Eri13]

I think so. I'd call the looks they were exchanging throughout "Rising" eye!foreplay.

Which I always thought was a rather lazy way to deal with the issue. There were certainly other ways to bring in that conflict that wouldn't have involved getting rid of the character.

Spoiler:

There have been hints more recently of an "Atlantis vs. Earth" dynamic developing; that could've been played up more with Weir and Sheppard teamed up against the SGC/IOA to keep Atlantis from getting screwed over by Earth. Bring Weir's diplomatic skillz to the forefront, make her more of an active player in Pegasus politics. But noooo. They simply gave up and took the cheap and easy way out instead of actually doing their jobs as writers and working out a more creative solution. And of course, the shenanigans with Darth Mallozzi and Season 4 only made matters worse.

Seriously, I keep going back and forth as to whether or not I'm going to watch GitM. On the one hand, I want to see what happens. On the other hand, I'm afraid to see how badly it may crash and burn.

Spoiler:

I think fans would definitely be pissed if Weir was killed off without Torri. It's been done before, and not just on Stargate (Prison Break, anyone?), and the results did not go over well with fans. One would hope that they've learned their lesson from that... then again, they didn't learn their lesson from the Carson fiasco, either.

As for ascension... Darth Mallozzi had said previously that Weir will not ascend, HOWEVER, he made that statement before Season 4 even finished filming, when he was probably still assuming that Torri would agree to come back. Now that the situation has changed, they've no doubt had to reconsider that decision in order to wrap up the storyline in one episode. Thank goodness Torri forced the issue.

I like your idea about seeing Torri's face for a brief moment as Weir ascends. That would be wonderful. And actually, I think they've done the 'pasting someone's face on someone else's body' thing before, on SG-1. So there's certainly a precedent.

Spoiler:

That would be utterly gracious of them, to give people that ending. But I'm not confident it will happen. I had a lot of hopes dashed last season, so I'm not going to hope for this final episode.

» Submersion had tons of Sparky in it. I love the cute little moments between them in that episode. And Rodney is still totally their kid, or at least Lizzie's kid. And Ronon and Teyla are kids. They are all so awesome like that. Not to mention that Lizzie needs to wear that black shirt more often *g*


» Nor do I. In my alternate S4 Elizabeth is still leader. Carson comes back later in the season - not as a clone - because all my scenarios to introduce him in the first few eps of S4 were honestly very sloppy, rushed, and out of place.

» By the way - some brainstorming for you guys to do here as I need some help - how would have you played out the S4 season premiere? I need ideas, folks!

For me? I would have...

Spoiler:

Still had the shield fail to raise and Weir being blown back. Initially, before I found out what had happened to Torri, I believed it was going to be another of those 'leader-in-peril' cliffhangers where she hung on the cusp of life or death for an episode, and then back to status quo for the rest of the season.

I would have kept her critical; had John and Rodney and the rest go through all the emotions of coming close to losing her. I might have kept the replicator idea--with them completely reprogrammed of course--because it could have led to future, rather cool episodes of Liz doing a little more than just standing around. Maybe have a couple episode arc with the IOA questioning her ability to lead, and she proving she could.

She could also have been used to infiltrate things, a little like Teyla's wraith-sense. Maybe even pose a danger--lead to big, dramatic episodes where they worried about her being taken over.

In the end, if Teyla was no threat though Queens could inhabit her consciousness, then Elizabeth would have been the same. And what an interesting character development it would have been, to see her fighting with what she was, questioning her own humanity--and having John by her side reassuring her, like that opening scene in Lifeline, that she was still who she was to him.

[Scary Kitty]

Getting the Replicators out of the way is also a big deal for me. They should bug off (see: die) and probe themselves

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[Scary Kitty]

Spoiler:

That would be utterly gracious of them, to give people that ending. But I'm not confident it will happen. I had a lot of hopes dashed last season, so I'm not going to hope for this final episode.

Which is why I'm still on the fence about watching GitM. They burned me last year, and I don't want to go through that again.

For me? I would have...

Spoiler:

Still had the shield fail to raise and Weir being blown back. Initially, before I found out what had happened to Torri, I believed it was going to be another of those 'leader-in-peril' cliffhangers where she hung on the cusp of life or death for an episode, and then back to status quo for the rest of the season.

I would have kept her critical; had John and Rodney and the rest go through all the emotions of coming close to losing her. I might have kept the replicator idea--with them completely reprogrammed of course--because it could have led to future, rather cool episodes of Liz doing a little more than just standing around. Maybe have a couple episode arc with the IOA questioning her ability to lead, and she proving she could.

She could also have been used to infiltrate things, a little like Teyla's wraith-sense. Maybe even pose a danger--lead to big, dramatic episodes where they worried about her being taken over.

In the end, if Teyla was no threat though Queens could inhabit her consciousness, then Elizabeth would have been the same. And what an interesting character development it would have been, to see her fighting with what she was, questioning her own humanity--and having John by her side reassuring her, like that opening scene in Lifeline, that she was still who she was to him.

Yeah, that was what I had thought they were going to do, too.

Spoiler:

Perhaps keep her capture in Lifeline, and have her held prisoner by the Replicators for a few episodes before being rescued (can you just imagine the team finding her alive on Asuras in BAMSR after being told she was dead by the clone!team in TMC? Now that would've been a shocker!). They rescue her and bring her back to Atlantis. Rodney could even have used the advances with the nanite code in Miller's Crossing to do what he originally intended in Adrift, which was to use the nanites to heal Elizabeth organically instead of simply replacing her damaged tissues with nanocells, then shutting the nanites down, leaving her as she was after TRW, physically human with inactive nanites in her system. Mentally and emotionally, she's gone through a hell of an ordeal, and over the next few episodes, we could learn about how her experiences have changed her outlook on herself, on military issues, etc. It would've moved Elizabeth around on the playing board without taking her off the playing board entirely, and given her a new perspective with which to lead Atlantis as the story moved forward.

[Southern Red]

I love that idea - I might even put it into a fic, with your permission?

Spoiler:

Heh without Torri I don't believe any Elizabeth related storry they may choose to sell. Nothing will work as well as first three seasons IMO. I won't watch GiTMo (yes I'm still calling it like that). Writing good stories is hard, chewing over cliches while listening your fans praise you... well that's lazy and irresponsible.

Back to gutter people. I can't access my own gutter stash, but I'm relying on rest of you to fulfill that. Meanwhile my enchiladas are yummy! Thank you for the advices, Eri!

You have my permission.

Spoiler:

That would be utterly gracious of them, to give people that ending. But I'm not confident it will happen. I had a lot of hopes dashed last season, so I'm not going to hope for this final episode.

For me? I would have...

Spoiler:

Still had the shield fail to raise and Weir being blown back. Initially, before I found out what had happened to Torri, I believed it was going to be another of those 'leader-in-peril' cliffhangers where she hung on the cusp of life or death for an episode, and then back to status quo for the rest of the season.

I would have kept her critical; had John and Rodney and the rest go through all the emotions of coming close to losing her. I might have kept the replicator idea--with them completely reprogrammed of course--because it could have led to future, rather cool episodes of Liz doing a little more than just standing around. Maybe have a couple episode arc with the IOA questioning her ability to lead, and she proving she could.

She could also have been used to infiltrate things, a little like Teyla's wraith-sense. Maybe even pose a danger--lead to big, dramatic episodes where they worried about her being taken over.

In the end, if Teyla was no threat though Queens could inhabit her consciousness, then Elizabeth would have been the same. And what an interesting character development it would have been, to see her fighting with what she was, questioning her own humanity--and having John by her side reassuring her, like that opening scene in Lifeline, that she was still who she was to him.

Brilliant ideas. If only.

Which is why I'm still on the fence about watching GitM. They burned me last year, and I don't want to go through that again.



Yeah, that was what I had thought they were going to do, too.

Spoiler:

Perhaps keep her capture in Lifeline, and have her held prisoner by the Replicators for a few episodes before being rescued (can you just imagine the team finding her alive on Asuras in BAMSR after being told she was dead by the clone!team in TMC? Now that would've been a shocker!). They rescue her and bring her back to Atlantis. Rodney could even have used the advances with the nanite code in Miller's Crossing to do what he originally intended in Adrift, which was to use the nanites to heal Elizabeth organically instead of simply replacing her damaged tissues with nanocells, then shutting the nanites down, leaving her as she was after TRW, physically human with inactive nanites in her system. Mentally and emotionally, she's gone through a hell of an ordeal, and over the next few episodes, we could learn about how her experiences have changed her outlook on herself, on military issues, etc. It would've moved Elizabeth around on the playing board without taking her off the playing board entirely, and given her a new perspective with which to lead Atlantis as the story moved forward.

Also brilliant. These ideas would work together as an entire season arc. Sigh.

[SMB_BOOKS]

I am loving everyone's alternate season 4 ideas. Lovely work! When you care about a character, there are always possibilities, there are always options. There is always a future.

That's why Elizabeth will always have a future in this thread. We care about her!

[Falcon Horus]

» I will keep the scene with Keller actually showing she can be smart and treating John like a would-be widow. But I really have no interest in writing for Keller. But I have interesting plans for her. Getting the Replicators out of the way is also a big deal for me. They should bug off (see: die) and probe themselves

Any chance Doppelganger plays out differently too?

[Pajus]

Any chance Doppelganger plays out differently too?

Let's say I'm writing a story about that too (but I don't think it would be what you want)

[Southern Red]

Any chance Doppelganger plays out differently too?

It has to. In fact all of S4 has to with a few exceptions. By the time of Doppelganger

Spoiler:

Elizabeth will be fine and the Kate portion will be replaced by a nice Sparky dream. Maybe doppelganger!John appears in Elizabeth's dreams and taunts her with all John's women but she doesn't fall for it. Kate can reassure her later that John loves only her.

[Falcon Horus]

It has to. In fact all of S4 has to with a few exceptions. By the time of Doppelganger

Spoiler:

Elizabeth will be fine and the Kate portion will be replaced by a nice Sparky dream. Maybe doppelganger!John appears in Elizabeth's dreams and taunts her with all John's women but she doesn't fall for it. Kate can reassure her later that John loves only her.

Sounds good to me... Kate can have the girl then (girl being Teyla).