Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

I think a true Atlantis fan should see all the episodes at least once. Adrift/Lifeline were certainly the most emotionally exhausting. They were extremely sad, and I hate the way Elizabeth's departure was handled, but you should try and see them at least once.



In the beginning yes, when I first watched the episode I really thought their plan was to bring her back, but then I realised how wrong I was. I had no idea what was going on behind the scenes, I only watched Atlantis (all the episodes) for the first time around October 2011 and August 2012, I had no clue of what had happened behind the scenes, I just followed the episodes and hoped for the best. Only when I finished watching all the episodes I decided to search for all the info I could get about Stargate Atlantis, I didn’t dare to do that before because I absolutely hate spoilers. We don’t get that kind of news here. We just have the shows on TV and if we want to know more about them, we usually have to search for ourselves, and besides when the show first started to be showed here, season 1, the show had already been cancelled there.

I frequently wish I would have stayed unspoiled. Then I would have enjoyed Sparky a lot more because I wouldn't have known it wasn't deliberate.

That works for me.

I just remembered a line from a Star Wars novel that fits the IOA as well. When Mandalorians think a person is a fool, they say that person's brain cell is lonely.

I like: if he had one more brain cell, he'd be a half-wit, and he doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together.

[Scary Kitty]

I frequently wish I would have stayed unspoiled. Then I would have enjoyed Sparky a lot more because I wouldn't have known it wasn't deliberate.

True. And maybe it wouldn't have hurt so much when everything went to hell, because we wouldn't have known about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

I like: if he had one more brain cell, he'd be a half-wit, and he doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together.

[Sequoia Hope]

So he failed to be a completely flawless scientist who never ever makes any mistakes. He wasn't able to predict every possible consequence of his tampering with the replicators. So he's no Sam Carter who is never wrong. Oh wait, Sam Carter made mistakes too! Of the life-threatening kind! I guess that means that no single scientist is perfect. Is it really a good enough reason to castigate Rodney for not being a scientific god? Elizabeth thought it was worth the risk.



Honestly, I fail to see what Rodney's ego had to do with the events in Lifeline. It was not about his ego. He did not "cause" the problem or "reacted the way he shouldn't have". He saw a possible way to stop the war. He had an idea and he did the right thing by voicing it. It would have been downright criminal of him to not have voiced his idea. John and Elizabeth agreed. He did not force them into this. And they are not stupid. They evaluated the risks, the possible consequences and rewards and chose to go for it. The decision the three of them made had nothing to do with Rodney's supposed selfishness or stupidity or any other terrible attributes. It was a calculated risk, just as Michael was a calculated risk. When people say "It was all Rodney's fault!", they deprive Elizabeth of her agency, her ability to make important decisions and bear consequences for them. Rodney did not sacrifice her. He would have given his life for her if he could. She sacrificed herself. Which is why she's a hero.

Wish I could give you some green for this. Well said.

Certain death? Perhaps.

Spoiler:

God knows it would open up the possibilities for fanfic writers to resurrect her without all the complicated Replibabble.

Although it would really screw over the plot line for "Adrift" and "Lifeline". Having her as a vegetable would've been just as bad as her being "lost", in my opinion. I'm sure she probably had a DNR or a living will that John was most likely aware of, but in any case, seeing her lying there and being completely unable to do anything to help would have been as bad as watching her die. Worse, really.

I completely agree. If that had happened, I would have cried so hard. Just look at Rodney in "The Shrine." I don't think I could have stood watching such a strong female character like her being reduced to nothing. Sending her character off the way they did in "Lifeline" did her character much more justice.

Sometimes you miss a lot when you’re away and today were one of those days with tons of new and interesting posts.

The consequences of their actions is an interesting topic and one of the things that Torri have brought up at several cons as a big reason why Sci-Fi is so interesting to do, because you can explore different aspects of things without pissing people off (well, other than the usual character based plots that is), and I know it’s not exactly what she meant but it defiantly falls under it.
I do agree that all characters have done thing and made decisions that have backfired, some big time, but I must say that I do admire their will to try and make it right.

Nicely said.

I agree with those who have said that they shouldn’t have changed the credits until ‘Reunion’.

Should have said this earlier, but I agree on this, too.

seriously. truthfully i wouldn't be surprised if the trust didn't have a few of their operatives in that organization.

And I wouldn't be surprised if TPTW were secretly scheming with the IOA.

Wish I could give you some green for that one.

Hmmm... so is the IOA like an on screen representation of TPTW?

Yes, THIS.

[gateraid]

True. And maybe it wouldn't have hurt so much when everything went to hell, because we wouldn't have known about the behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

I really do wonder what my interpretation of the show would have been if I wasn't partially spoiled. I had watched s2, then went on-line (we were waaaaay behind at that point) and read some criticism that s3 sucked (it turned out that I loved it - although I agree that it was awesome of awesome followed by craptastic of craptastic eps). I knew Weir was a goner before I watched those s4 eps. This was probably why I was so disappointed by the "go that's an order" scene. Seriously - they had guns, not just ARGs. They could have kept firing those whilst Weir at least made an attempt to escape before they captured her, instead of "ohhhhhhh, my knee, it really stings when i run".

I do like (arrogantly I'm sure) to think that I'm a reasonably astute viewer. I'd like to think that I would have taken the delete/replace with Torri/Amanada in the #2 slot to mean that Torri/Weir was never coming back, but perhaps I would have held out hope that she might have made an important story contribution? that said, after viewing Heroes I, I thought "ohhhh, this isn't gonna end well for you doc" and I had not been spoiled. Natural pessimist? Surely not

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

LOL -- I think we all would like to have a go at the IOA. Knock some sense into their peabrains.

The IOA are just wee buggers that can’t seem to have anything better to do than criticize other people’s work and decisions. They are kind of a stone in the shoe. Woolsey learned that things not always can happen according to certain rules. All the IOA members should have to remain “on the field” for a while, for a better understanding of certain situations.

I really do wonder what my interpretation of the show would have been if I wasn't partially spoiled. I had watched s2, then went on-line (we were waaaaay behind at that point) and read some criticism that s3 sucked (it turned out that I loved it - although I agree that it was awesome of awesome followed by craptastic of craptastic eps).

Season 3 was one of my favourite seasons, if not the best, in spite of all the bad things that happened, many of the episodes were great.

[Falcon Horus]

Season 1 totally rules the board, as far as I am concerned.

On a different note: I was glad practically the whole of GW spoiled Doppelganger for me, I wouldn't have survived otherwise.

[Southern Red]

I really do wonder what my interpretation of the show would have been if I wasn't partially spoiled. I had watched s2, then went on-line (we were waaaaay behind at that point) and read some criticism that s3 sucked (it turned out that I loved it - although I agree that it was awesome of awesome followed by craptastic of craptastic eps). I knew Weir was a goner before I watched those s4 eps. This was probably why I was so disappointed by the "go that's an order" scene. Seriously - they had guns, not just ARGs. They could have kept firing those whilst Weir at least made an attempt to escape before they captured her, instead of "ohhhhhhh, my knee, it really stings when i run".

I do like (arrogantly I'm sure) to think that I'm a reasonably astute viewer. I'd like to think that I would have taken the delete/replace with Torri/Amanada in the #2 slot to mean that Torri/Weir was never coming back, but perhaps I would have held out hope that she might have made an important story contribution? that said, after viewing Heroes I, I thought "ohhhh, this isn't gonna end well for you doc" and I had not been spoiled. Natural pessimist? Surely not

The complaining started at the beginning of S2. If you have a lot of time on your hands, go and read some of the episode threads. Posters started saying it wasn't as good as S1 almost from the start. And even though S2 is always at the bottom of any list of favorites, we got a bunch of great Sparky eps from it and wonderful Sparky moments in almost all of them.

I think if I had been totally unspoiled, I would have been certain that after FS, Weir would have been healed and back to work in a few eps of S4. But I've always been naive. In fact, I remember the discussion around here being along the lines that the big 3, meaning Sheppard, McKay and Weir, were safe, and that TPTB would never cut one of them. Har. Once Sam showed up though, everyone probably knew Weir was a goner.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Season 1 totally rules the board, as far as I am concerned.

Season 1 is special because they were still not in contact with Earth so i usually will not compare it with the other seasons. But i think all the seasons had good/great episodes and some episodes that shouldn’t have happened. I think in a way season 3 is one of my favourites, because we were able to see Elizabeth more “in action”, i mean we were able to see her doing other things besides being only in the control room.

On a different note: I was glad practically the whole of GW spoiled Doppelganger for me, I wouldn't have survived otherwise.

I guess not all spoilers are bad.

In fact, I remember the discussion around here being along the lines that the big 3, meaning Sheppard, McKay and Weir, were safe, and that TPTB would never cut one of them. Har. Once Sam showed up though, everyone probably knew Weir was a goner.

I would have thought the same thing. I would never think they would cut one of the main cast. I think it was the first time i remember seeing something like this happening, (but i might be mistaken). How i wish Sam would have remained in SG1 only, or then how i wish she would have decided to leave to do Sanctuary a year earlier, then nothing would have happened the way it did. And how i wish the writers would have been more professional and would have done their job correctly in order to be able to keep both of them on the show, that yes would have been the right thing to do.

[Falcon Horus]

...or then how i wish she would have decided to leave to do Sanctuary a year earlier, then nothing would have happened the way it did.

AT couldn't leave earlier - she was bound to a contract.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

how do you guys think Season 4 (and Season 5) would've had played had John been the one the IOA chose to replace elizabeth? obviously he would've been promoted to Full Colonel and Major Lorne would've probably taken over Command of Atlantis-1 but would he had been like jack was in Season 8 sitting back doing paperwork or would he have been out in the field every other week?

[Southern Red]

how do you guys think Season 4 (and Season 5) would've had played had John been the one the IOA chose to replace elizabeth? obviously he would've been promoted to Full Colonel and Major Lorne would've probably taken over Command of Atlantis-1 but would he had been like jack was in Season 8 sitting back doing paperwork or would he have been out in the field every other week?

John didn't want that job and would have hated it. He would not have stayed behind a desk and would have constantly been in trouble with the IOA.

[Falcon Horus]

John didn't want that job and would have hated it. He would not have stayed behind a desk and would have constantly been in trouble with the IOA.

The IOA would have kicked him out after an hour... or at least regretted their decision. He would have probably walked out himself.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

AT couldn't leave earlier - she was bound to a contract.

Contracts can be broken. Wasn’t TH also bound to a contract then?

how do you guys think Season 4 (and Season 5) would've had played had John been the one the IOA chose to replace elizabeth? obviously he would've been promoted to Full Colonel and Major Lorne would've probably taken over Command of Atlantis-1 but would he had been like jack was in Season 8 sitting back doing paperwork or would he have been out in the field every other week?

I am not sure if i have ever thought about it before. But maybe it would have been interesting. I think he wouldn’t have been like Jack, i don’t know why some people tend to compare them, i think Jack and John are different, ok they might have some similarities in certain aspects, but i don’t think they are that similar. John doesn’t like to be in command of Atlantis, not to mention he would probably not feel comfortable replacing Elizabeth, unless he, in his mind, would be thinking he was keeping the “seat warm” for when Elizabeth would return. And i am guessing if he would be in command of Atlantis, the city would definitely have to face a lot more of troubles, just look at “First Contact”, LOL, we all know that John attracts troubles. He would probably be in the field every other week, i can’t seem to be able to see him seated behind a desk all the time dealing with paperwork. He would probably assign someone to do it for him.

[Falcon Horus]

Contracts can be broken. Wasn’t TH also bound to a contract then?

Yes, they can be but it all depends on the agreement and the small print. I don't know how much experience you have as far as contracts go, and we have no knowledge of the actor contracts to begin with. It isn't as simple as you think it is. People seem to think making and breaking a contract is like flipping on and off a light, which it isn't.

As far as I remember AT signed a two-year contract at the beginning of season 10, but SG1 didn't get an 11 season so TPTW opted to use that one year to put her on SGA. At the time she was working on Santuary. If it had been as simple as flipping a switch, I'm sure she might have considered breaking the contract. However, at the time they didn't know yet Sanctuary was going to be a success, and FYI actors need money too to pay bills.

So, the only thing you can blame really is the kind of contract both AT and TH signed, or their agents.

[Southern Red]

Yes, they can be but it all depends on the agreement and the small print. I don't know how much experience you have as far as contracts go, and we have no knowledge of the actor contracts to begin with. It isn't as simple as you think it is. People seem to think making and breaking a contract is like flipping on and off a light, which it isn't.

As far as I remember AT signed a two-year contract at the beginning of season 10, but SG1 didn't get an 11 season so TPTW opted to use that one year to put her on SGA. At the time she was working on Santuary. If it had been as simple as flipping a switch, I'm sure she might have considered breaking the contract. However, at the time they didn't know yet Sanctuary was going to be a success, and FYI actors need money too to pay bills.

So, the only thing you can blame really is the kind of contract both AT and TH signed, or their agents.

Good answer. In both cases, it was TPTB that had all the power. They can fire actors without much trouble, but if an actor breaks his/her contract, they have to pay back the money or be sued. Plus, every contract is different. There are clauses and codicils and appendices and so on and so forth.