Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

They should've called the next episode "Atlantis' 11." *snark*

i suddenly feel like watching Ocean's eleven again.

They shouldn't have had Sam in the credits (and Elizabeth out of them) because it tells the casual audience what is about to happen. It also goes against what they did with the Ford/Ronon situation. Of course, Mallozzi didn't see the problem because Sam is great, Sam is SG-1 and SG-1 is wonderful, Sam uses a gun, Sam is perfect.

that's what i would've like to have seen in the adrift/lifeline credits have it like they did with the season 2 dvd and have the first three episodes have the old season 1 credits and with duet they used the new credits with Jason and Paul added. with adrift and lifeline they should've used the old season 3 credits for those episodes and have amanda as a special guest star and then with "Reunion" use the season 4 intro with Amanda Tapping added in and they should've done that for "Search and Rescue" and have RP and JS guest stars role and then with the "Seer" use the new intros.

Joe really knocks it out of the park with his performance, though. He did so much for the ship in these episodes.

it did seem like he brought his "A" game when dealing with Sparky Scenes or related sparky scenes.

[Scary Kitty]

They shouldn't have had Sam in the credits (and Elizabeth out of them) because it tells the casual audience what is about to happen. It also goes against what they did with the Ford/Ronon situation. Of course, Mallozzi didn't see the problem because Sam is great, Sam is SG-1 and SG-1 is wonderful, Sam uses a gun, Sam is perfect.

that's what i would've like to have seen in the adrift/lifeline credits have it like they did with the season 2 dvd and have the first three episodes have the old season 1 credits and with duet they used the new credits with Jason and Paul added. with adrift and lifeline they should've used the old season 3 credits for those episodes and have amanda as a special guest star and then with "Reunion" use the season 4 intro with Amanda Tapping added in and they should've done that for "Search and Rescue" and have RP and JS guest stars role and then with the "Seer" use the new intros.

*nods* I even mentioned during the 'thon about how Martin Gero actually brought up the issue with the credits "spoiling" the audience for the changes in Season 4, but he was overruled.

And LCJS, thanks for the reminder that the Season 2 precedent with Jason should've also been applied to the Season 5 opening. I think a lot of us tend to forget that one in the face of our greater rage over Torri's shoddy treatment overall.

it did seem like he brought his "A" game when dealing with Sparky Scenes or related sparky scenes.

Considering some of the comments Joe's made about the subject, I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was his own rage over Torri's shoddy treatment shining through.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

*nods* I even mentioned during the 'thon about how Martin Gero actually brought up the issue with the credits "spoiling" the audience for the changes in Season 4, but he was overruled.

and who overruled him?

And LCJS, thanks for the reminder that the Season 2 precedent with Jason should've also been applied to the Season 5 opening. I think a lot of us tend to forget that one in the face of our greater rage over Torri's shoddy treatment overall.

No Problem anytime. i mean somebody's gotta be rational during all the rage.

Considering some of the comments Joe's made about the subject, I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was his own rage over Torri's shoddy treatment shining through.

I believe they called that art imitating life right?

[Scary Kitty]

and who overruled him?

Mallozzi. Might've been both him and Mullie, as they were co-showrunners at that point, but I seem to recall Mallozzi mentioning something on his blog about him scoffing at Gero's protest. Go figure. *shrugs*

No Problem anytime. i mean somebody's gotta be rational during all the rage.

Heh.

I believe they called that art imitating life right?

You betcha.

[Raelis]

True, if they had stick to the plan, Elizabeth would have returned with them and with the ZPM.

and the wraith wouldn't be at war with the replicators and millions of people wouldn't have died and the events of season 5's "Inquisition" wouldn't have happened.

and who do we have to thank for it. The GREAT Dr. Rodney McKay. Way to go Meredith.

He can add it to the list of his greatest failures, right next to blowing up 5/6th of a solar system.

You guys do remember that Elizabeth herself agreed with the plan? (Her words: "John, you know what this could mean. If the Replicators go to war with the Wraith ..."... "He’s right. Once they notice the ZPM. is missing, they’ll be able to trace the source of the infiltration. I will never get this kind of undetected access again".) By your logic she's to blame for the deaths of millions (and her own capture) as well.

I understand it's tempting to put all the blame on one character, particularly the one you like least, but let's be fair here. Elizabeth agreed with the plan. John did not put up much of of a fight. They all thought it was a risk worth taking. They were all wrong.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

that's what i would've like to have seen in the adrift/lifeline credits have it like they did with the season 2 dvd and have the first three episodes have the old season 1 credits and with duet they used the new credits with Jason and Paul added. with adrift and lifeline they should've used the old season 3 credits for those episodes and have amanda as a special guest star and then with "Reunion" use the season 4 intro with Amanda Tapping added in and they should've done that for "Search and Rescue" and have RP and JS guest stars role and then with the "Seer" use the new intros.

Yeah I was actually going to mention this. I thought it was clever the way they kept the Season 1 intro for the first few episodes of the Season 2 DVD set. I assumed that this was because they were only adding in intros for the DVD. As I recall, the season was broadcast with an absent or truncated intro on TV initally and they were readded for the dvd.

[Sequoia Hope]

You guys do remember that Elizabeth herself agreed with the plan? (Her words: "John, you know what this could mean. If the Replicators go to war with the Wraith ..."... "He’s right. Once they notice the ZPM. is missing, they’ll be able to trace the source of the infiltration. I will never get this kind of undetected access again".) By your logic she's to blame for the deaths of millions (and her own capture) as well.

I understand it's tempting to put all the blame on one character, particularly the one you like least, but let's be fair here. Elizabeth agreed with the plan. John did not put up much of of a fight. They all thought it was a risk worth taking. They were all wrong.

I think it's important for us to understand here that the characters did not mean to intentionally condemn millions of lives to death. Elizabeth agreed with the plan because - and this is my own opinion - she was desperately looking for a way out of her situation. She honestly didn't care whether she lived or died, and she was just trying to help her team as much as she could before she had to be separated from them. If we were to blame Elizabeth for the death of millions, then we would be saying that she was selfish, and she did what she did because she was trying to meet her own needs.

Rodney did not originally intend to divert from the team's main goal, and he only brought up this new plan because, Rodney being Rodney, he discovered how to change the Replicators' base code while fiddling around with his tablet. We all know that Rodney gets naturally excited when he discovers something new, so it's no surprise that he would explain this plan to the rest of the team despite the risks involved. Blaming Rodney for the tragic ramifications of the team's decision would mean blaming his character as a whole. I personally see him as a very good person, and I think it's a shame that we should only judge him based on examples that demonstrate his flaws. Nobody's perfect, and everybody makes decisions that they live to regret, whether it's sanctioning torture on a potentially innocent man or failing to save a fellow teammate in the hands of the enemy. In a way, all of these mistakes are equal in status, because they all demonstrate how none of our beloved characters are infallible.

John agreed to Rodney's plan because they were under time constraints, and being trained as a soldier, he was compelled to make a snap decision about whether to leave or stay. He had to make his decision based on the likelihood of succeeding, the potential benefits should the plan succeed, the consequences should the plan fail, and the safety of his teammates. Remember that John initially rejected Rodney's plan because his original version involved condemning Elizabeth to death. When Rodney modified his plan, John agreed because, while the risks were still high, the plan did not guarantee the death of a teammate, and he understood the benefits of having the Wraith go the war with the Replicators. However, we cannot expect him to be perfect in all of his judgments - even though the team made it back to Atlantis, they still suffered a terrible loss that would haunt them for years to come. Looking at the long-term consequences that extended to the Pegasus galaxy as a whole, I also don't think anyone could have predicted how in their war against the Wraith, the Replicators would attack human races to eliminate the Wraith's only food source. Even though John led the mission, it would be unfair to solely blame him for the capture of a close teammate and the deaths across the galaxy, because he still performed the best he could in the given circumstances, and we can't expect more than that from him.

[Raelis]

I think it's important for us to understand here that the characters did not mean to intentionally condemn millions of lives to death. Elizabeth agreed with the plan because - and this is my own opinion - she was desperately looking for a way out of her situation. She honestly didn't care whether she lived or died, and she was just trying to help her team as much as she could before she had to be separated from them. If we were to blame Elizabeth for the death of millions, then we would be saying that she was selfish, and she did what she did because she was trying to meet her own needs.

Rodney did not originally intend to divert from the team's main goal, and he only brought up this new plan because, Rodney being Rodney, he discovered how to change the Replicators' base code while fiddling around with his tablet. We all know that Rodney gets naturally excited when he discovers something new, so it's no surprise that he would explain this plan to the rest of the team despite the risks involved. Blaming Rodney for the tragic ramifications of the team's decision would mean blaming his character as a whole. I personally see him as a very good person, and I think it's a shame that we should only judge him based on examples that demonstrate his flaws. Nobody's perfect, and everybody makes decisions that they live to regret, whether it's sanctioning torture on a potentially innocent man or failing to save a fellow teammate in the hands of the enemy. In a way, all of these mistakes are equal in status, because they all demonstrate how none of our beloved characters are infallible.

John agreed to Rodney's plan because they were under time constraints, and being trained as a soldier, he was compelled to make a snap decision about whether to leave or stay. He had to make his decision based on the likelihood of succeeding, the potential benefits should the plan succeed, the consequences should the plan fail, and the safety of his teammates. Remember that John initially rejected Rodney's plan because his original version involved condemning Elizabeth to death. When Rodney modified his plan, John agreed because, while the risks were still high, the plan did not guarantee the death of a teammate, and he understood the benefits of having the Wraith go the war with the Replicators. However, we cannot expect him to be perfect in all of his judgments - even though the team made it back to Atlantis, they still suffered a terrible loss that would haunt them for years to come. Looking at the long-term consequences that extended to the Pegasus galaxy as a whole, I also don't think anyone could have predicted how in their war against the Wraith, the Replicators would attack human races to eliminate the Wraith's only food source. Even though John led the mission, it would be unfair to solely blame him for the capture of a close teammate and the deaths across the galaxy, because he still performed the best he could in the given circumstances, and we can't expect more than that from him.

Believe me, I do not blame any of them. They could not have possibly foreseen what was going to happen. They knew they were taking a risk like they'd done many times in the past. This time it didn't pay off, putting it mildly. But I always thought blaming any of them for what happened in Lifeline and later in season 4 was a very harsh, unforgiving take on the characters, which my previous post was all about.

So I agree with you on everything except one little thing: I don't think Rodney's plan had anything to do with him being excited about new discoveries. I think he saw what he thought was a way to stop or at least minimize the Wraith and the Replicator threat, and it was quite understandable that he felt he needed to share that insight with the others. Rodney may be self-absorbed, but he's not that self-absorbed as he demonstrated plenty of times in the course of the show. His plan in Lifeline wasn't about getting thrills about new technologies, or flexing his scientific muscles, or anything like that. He wanted to stop the war. So did Elizabeth. And they made a mistake, just like they had with Michael.

The decision to create Michael turned out to be a disaster which brought about a lot of deaths and suffering as well. How many people did he murder, how many did he experiment on? Are Carson and Elizabeth monsters for unleashing that on the galaxy? I don't believe so. Their intentions were noble, but they were tragically wrong, just as Rodney was tragically wrong in Lifeline. Not one person on Atlantis is squeaky clean when it comes to dubious decisions.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

They shouldn't have had Sam in the credits (and Elizabeth out of them) because it tells the casual audience what is about to happen. It also goes against what they did with the Ford/Ronon situation. Of course, Mallozzi didn't see the problem because Sam is great, Sam is SG-1 and SG-1 is wonderful, Sam uses a gun, Sam is perfect.

with adrift and lifeline they should've used the old season 3 credits for those episodes and have amanda as a special guest star and then with "Reunion" use the season 4 intro with Amanda Tapping added in and they should've done that for "Search and Rescue" and have RP and JS guest stars role

They should have done it the same way, because after all, Elizabeth was still there on the first two episodes of the season. But i guess the perfect one of SG1 tops and steps on anyone, so.

Joe really knocks it out of the park with his performance, though. He did so much for the ship in these episodes.

And that’s why some people started shipping them because of these episodes.

You guys do remember that Elizabeth herself agreed with the plan? (Her words: "John, you know what this could mean. If the Replicators go to war with the Wraith ..."... "He’s right. Once they notice the ZPM. is missing, they’ll be able to trace the source of the infiltration. I will never get this kind of undetected access again".) By your logic she's to blame for the deaths of millions (and her own capture) as well.

But if Rodney had done things right with the “plug and play” thing, John and Ronon wouldn’t have taken that long to upload the program and Elizabeth wouldn’t have had to intervene.

I think it's important for us to understand here that the characters did not mean to intentionally condemn millions of lives to death.

I think we are all aware of that.

Rodney did not originally intend to divert from the team's main goal, and he only brought up this new plan because, Rodney being Rodney, he discovered how to change the Replicators' base code while fiddling around with his tablet.

And i guess that’s where the problem is, the fact that Rodney once again was being Rodney, although i must admit at that time he was just doing what he thought was best (and so did Elizabeth), no one at that point would have ever thought the Replicators would start killing millions of people to prevent the Wraith from feeding. Maybe Rodney should have done something with the program in order to make the Replicators kill only Wraith and no one else, (like when the Ancients added the instruction for the Replicators not to kill Ancients), but once again who would have thought the Replicators would be so ingenious to the point of planning to prevent the Wraith from feeding as a way to destroy/kill them.

I personally see him as a very good person, and I think it's a shame that we should only judge him based on examples that demonstrate his flaws.

I agree, Rodney is definitely a good person, he just has problems showing it sometimes, and i guess his main problem is his ego. His ego sometimes makes him react in ways that maybe he shouldn’t. If it wasn’t for his ego, maybe most of times he would not cause half of the problems that sometimes he does.

[Raelis]

But if Rodney had done things right with the “plug and play” thing, John and Ronon wouldn’t have taken that long to upload the program and Elizabeth wouldn’t have had to intervene.

So he failed to be a completely flawless scientist who never ever makes any mistakes. He wasn't able to predict every possible consequence of his tampering with the replicators. So he's no Sam Carter who is never wrong. Oh wait, Sam Carter made mistakes too! Of the life-threatening kind! I guess that means that no single scientist is perfect. Is it really a good enough reason to castigate Rodney for not being a scientific god? Elizabeth thought it was worth the risk.

I agree, Rodney is definitely a good person, he just has problems showing it sometimes, and i guess his main problem is his ego. His ego sometimes makes him react in ways that maybe he shouldn’t. If it wasn’t for his ego, maybe most of times he would not cause half of the problems that sometimes he does.

Honestly, I fail to see what Rodney's ego had to do with the events in Lifeline. It was not about his ego. He did not "cause" the problem or "reacted the way he shouldn't have". He saw a possible way to stop the war. He had an idea and he did the right thing by voicing it. It would have been downright criminal of him to not have voiced his idea. John and Elizabeth agreed. He did not force them into this. And they are not stupid. They evaluated the risks, the possible consequences and rewards and chose to go for it. The decision the three of them made had nothing to do with Rodney's supposed selfishness or stupidity or any other terrible attributes. It was a calculated risk, just as Michael was a calculated risk. When people say "It was all Rodney's fault!", they deprive Elizabeth of her agency, her ability to make important decisions and bear consequences for them. Rodney did not sacrifice her. He would have given his life for her if he could. She sacrificed herself. Which is why she's a hero.

[Falcon Horus]

Hello, if it wasn't for Rodney (and cohort Keller) to activate the nanites in Elizabeth's bloodstream they wouldn't have been in that mess in the first place... oh look, again Rodney being his brilliant self.

[Raelis]

Hello, if it wasn't for Rodney (and cohort Keller) to activate the nanites in Elizabeth's bloodstream they wouldn't have been in that mess in the first place... oh look, again Rodney being his brilliant self.

Yeah, Elizabeth would have been dead. Or a vegetable, as per Keller.

Spoiler:

SGA-Rising would have been completely AU in that case.

We could also review every other expedition member's mistakes that led to tragic consequences. You know, for variety's sake. Rodney is feeling a little lonely on his "Most selfish and stupid person in Atlantis" pedestal.

[Falcon Horus]

Yeah, Elizabeth would have been dead. Or a vegetable, as per Keller.

At least, there would have been a decent ending to her story. Can't say much about that right now...

Spoiler:

SGA-Rising would have been completely AU in that case.

Considering what happened in one of the more recent episodes, I think we can already say that's just one of the ways Atlantis could have continued on... so doesn't that classify as AU anyway?

We could also review every other expedition member's mistakes that led to tragic consequences. You know, for variety's sake. Rodney is feeling a little lonely on his "Most selfish and stupid person in Atlantis" pedestal.

I think that's going to be a fairly short list, I'm afraid -- I'd put Rodney in number 1 spot, then John, then Elizabeth, then Carson, Keller's definitely there too. Teyla has a place there too, if we keep in mind she's capable of connecting with the Wraith network. Even Kate can be considered for the list, albeit rather low on it. She was there when they toyed with Michael's head. But really, none of them (bar perhaps John) can keep up with Rodney's lead on the list.

[Southern Red]

They should've called the next episode "Atlantis' 11." *snark*



In an effort to empathize and get as drunk as y'all with the whiskey during today's postathon honor of today's episode, I had a Corona. Better?

It's a start.

Good quote, Nolamom!

Well, Adrift........... I basically agree with what was said by you guys. The Sam and Lee scenes were so boring and they really deflated all the tension of the Atlantis scenes.

They shouldn't have had Sam in the credits (and Elizabeth out of them) because it tells the casual audience what is about to happen. It also goes against what they did with the Ford/Ronon situation. Of course, Mallozzi didn't see the problem because Sam is great, Sam is SG-1 and SG-1 is wonderful, Sam uses a gun, Sam is perfect.

Joe really knocks it out of the park with his performance, though. He did so much for the ship in these episodes.

Yeah, he did. Too bad it didn't happen earlier before she was off the show.

Yeah, Elizabeth would have been dead. Or a vegetable, as per Keller.

Spoiler:

SGA-Rising would have been completely AU in that case.

We could also review every other expedition member's mistakes that led to tragic consequences. You know, for variety's sake. Rodney is feeling a little lonely on his "Most selfish and stupid person in Atlantis" pedestal.

I don't think anybody meant to imply that Rodney is a bad person and/or bash his character. Nothing was said that wasn't fact. It was canon that he over-reached at times and had to be reigned in. Sadly, the person who was most capable of doing that was the center of the controversy this time. There were a lot of things that could have been changed just slightly in the whole replicator story that would have made it all better. It was a long sad chain of unfortunate events made worse by Rodney and Keller's act in Adrift. Elizabeth couldn't change what they had done, so she tried to make it work for the better. John once again trusted Rodney and look where it got him. They all made mistakes.

At least, there would have been a decent ending to her story. Can't say much about that right now...



Considering what happened in one of the more recent episodes, I think we can already say that's just one of the ways Atlantis could have continued on... so doesn't that classify as AU anyway?



I think that's going to be a fairly short list, I'm afraid -- I'd put Rodney in number 1 spot, then John, then Elizabeth, then Carson, Keller's definitely there too. Teyla has a place there too, if we keep in mind she's capable of connecting with the Wraith network. Even Kate can be considered for the list, albeit rather low on it. She was there when they toyed with Michael's head. But really, none of them (bar perhaps John) can keep up with Rodney's lead on the list.

Precisely, and that's what Inquisition was all about.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

So he failed to be a completely flawless scientist who never ever makes any mistakes. He wasn't able to predict every possible consequence of his tampering with the replicators. So he's no Sam Carter who is never wrong. Oh wait, Sam Carter made mistakes too! Of the life-threatening kind! I guess that means that no single scientist is perfect. Is it really a good enough reason to castigate Rodney for not being a scientific god? Elizabeth thought it was worth the risk.

It was as much Rodney’s fault as it was Elizabeth’s or John’s. They were taking a chance and it ended up badly. Maybe no one should be blamed for what happened, or maybe they should all be. This was just another risky mission as any other one, but this time things went the wrong way, and Elizabeth and those millions of people in Pegasus who died, paid the price.

Hello, if it wasn't for Rodney (and cohort Keller) to activate the nanites in Elizabeth's bloodstream they wouldn't have been in that mess in the first place... oh look, again Rodney being his brilliant self.

So, should we then put the blame on Keller? It was her idea to activate the nanites.

Yeah, Elizabeth would have been dead. Or a vegetable, as per Keller.

I sometimes wonder if that wouldn’t have been better, it would have caused less pain and suffering, because then they would know she was dead with no doubts. This way we don’t know what happened to her.

We could also review every other expedition member's mistakes that led to tragic consequences. You know, for variety's sake. Rodney is feeling a little lonely on his "Most selfish and stupid person in Atlantis" pedestal.

Why not? It would be interesting to compare how many mistakes were made and by whom.

I think that's going to be a fairly short list, I'm afraid -- I'd put Rodney in number 1 spot, then John, then Elizabeth, then Carson, Keller's definitely there too. Teyla has a place there too, if we keep in mind she's capable of connecting with the Wraith network. Even Kate can be considered for the list, albeit rather low on it. She was there when they toyed with Michael's head. But really, none of them (bar perhaps John) can keep up with Rodney's lead on the list.

Elizabeth as the leader has to be blamed for most things. She is responsible for the actions of the people of the expedition.