Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[TheLadyMore]

Considering the opinion some authors have of John, it's no wonder he kept putting himself in Larrin's clutches. He likes getting tied up and beaten and humiliated. It feeds his raging case of PTSD.

Or they thought it was too cliche to have a woman in trouble all the time so they decided to put a macho man like John as the damsel in distress

We look for any excuse to party!

I think it's by time I bring some treats from nanna's bakery to the party

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Later, in BAMSR, the Carter-Ellis smackdown scene was an oh-so-subtle attempt to make Carter look tough, and him like an ass again.

You know, it's funny you mention that. I actually kind of felt more sympathy for Ellis in that scene than Carter or McKay. I actually was on his side, I'd probably be pissed too if I came to a briefing hoping to see what weapons the scientists created against a threat as destructive as the replicators only for McKay to go on a long time wasting tangent in order to say they had nothing.

When Carter said "Is that clear?" for some reason I almost thought he should have broken into Captain Jack Sparrow's voice and said "inescapably... clear."

But then maybe I'm too hard on the scene, it just be that I was never as into Carter as her predecessor. I don't know what I would have thought if Elizabeth had gotten any sort of vaguely similar scene.

[Anuna]

The champagne is on ice and getting nicely chilled.

And it's meme time again!

Day the Nineteenth: Most annoying side character
Larrin. She always acted like such a mean-spirited, manhating little b***h, and I couldn't stand how she was always beating up on John and humiliating him. Sure, if you prefer a frakked up and dysfunctional relationship, then Larrin's your girl. But after all the crap John's been through, I think he deserves better than her.

Ugh, just when I read this I'm glad I skipped Larrin episodes. back in S4 I was still feeling really bummed out that Elizabeth was gone, and then there was this "Sheppard should do a hot looking chick". Yuck. Glad I skipped. I think writers have done a disservice to john on number of occasions, this being one of them.

[Anuna]

OT - ever felt like you're trying to talk to someone, but it's like you're talking to a wall?

[Siara.Corvus]

And, oh yeah, there will be a party. We've been having a lot of those around here lately.

Sparky is a fine reason to party

Ugh, just when I read this I'm glad I skipped Larrin episodes. back in S4 I was still feeling really bummed out that Elizabeth was gone, and then there was this "Sheppard should do a hot looking chick". Yuck. Glad I skipped. I think writers have done a disservice to john on number of occasions, this being one of them.

I really don't get why they had to have the Larrin scenes. Just to give John a possible fling, adding to his Kirk personality?
They could have introduced the Travellers without Larrin having a go at John.

[Anuna]

Sparky is a fine reason to party



I really don't get why they had to have the Larrin scenes. Just to give John a possible fling, adding to his Kirk personality?
They could have introduced the Travellers without Larrin having a go at John.

I was never really buying the Kirk personality. one of my friends said that PTW "created John, realized he was something beautifulč and then went on to destroy the beauty of their creation." he had to have a flaw, only it feels like an unnecessary flaw, at least to me. John is already imperfect, in a realistic way that doesn't make him unlovable. Making him a "Kirk" felt like the writers tried to make us love him less. I usually ignore the Kirk aspect all together. Of course the girls fall for him - why wouldn't they? But I definitely don't agree with "thinking with the other head" definition of John who is anything but careless when it comes to relationships.

My opinions, of course.

[Siara.Corvus]

I was never really buying the Kirk personality. one of my friends said that PTW "created John, realized he was something beautifulč and then went on to destroy the beauty of their creation." he had to have a flaw, only it feels like an unnecessary flaw, at least to me. John is already imperfect, in a realistic way that doesn't make him unlovable. Making him a "Kirk" felt like the writers tried to make us love him less. I usually ignore the Kirk aspect all together. Of course the girls fall for him - why wouldn't they? But I definitely don't agree with "thinking with the other head" definition of John who is anything but careless when it comes to relationships.

My opinions, of course.

I agree. Girls would fall for him anyway, he's a good looking guy and they'd be stupid not to use that.
Everytime he came across a woman though, it always felt forced.
The character wasn't one to get intimate with people, he doesn't like talking about his feelings, yet everytime there's a pretty lady, he's there winking/smiling at her and then doing the naughty.

Sure, he's a guy, so he's bound to flirt some. And he wasn't really that into what others thought of him much, but being all Kirk-like, to me, it's just not John. It doesn't fit his personality to get cozy with a different woman an episode.

[Southern Red]

You know, it's funny you mention that. I actually kind of felt more sympathy for Ellis in that scene than Carter or McKay. I actually was on his side, I'd probably be pissed too if I came to a briefing hoping to see what weapons the scientists created against a threat as destructive as the replicators only for McKay to go on a long time wasting tangent in order to say they had nothing.

When Carter said "Is that clear?" for some reason I almost thought he should have broken into Captain Jack Sparrow's voice and said "inescapably... clear."

But then maybe I'm too hard on the scene, it just be that I was never as into Carter as her predecessor. I don't know what I would have thought if Elizabeth had gotten any sort of vaguely similar scene.

You might could look at some of the scenes in Trinity as sort of a comparison. The one when John and Caldwell were in Elizabeth's office trying to convince her that powering up the weapon was a good idea. It was military vs. diplomat. I think she handled it superbly, showing them exactly what she thought and yet listening to their argument. It was different from the Sam/Ellis scene in that Caldwell knew them both well. I loved how he kept glancing over at John and back at her when he saw that John was doing more to convince her than he was. LOL

She also handled what's his name well in Siege II. I can't think of his name and don't have time to look him up but I'm talking about the macho Marine colonel. He ended up eating out of her hand. But I don't think Elizabeth was ever rude or condescending.

OT - ever felt like you're trying to talk to someone, but it's like you're talking to a wall?

No never. Everybody I talk to is reasonable and always ends up seeing things my way. Why do you ask?

Sparky is a fine reason to party



I really don't get why they had to have the Larrin scenes. Just to give John a possible fling, adding to his Kirk personality?
They could have introduced the Travellers without Larrin having a go at John.

I was never really buying the Kirk personality. one of my friends said that PTW "created John, realized he was something beautifulč and then went on to destroy the beauty of their creation." he had to have a flaw, only it feels like an unnecessary flaw, at least to me. John is already imperfect, in a realistic way that doesn't make him unlovable. Making him a "Kirk" felt like the writers tried to make us love him less. I usually ignore the Kirk aspect all together. Of course the girls fall for him - why wouldn't they? But I definitely don't agree with "thinking with the other head" definition of John who is anything but careless when it comes to relationships.

My opinions, of course.

Joe liked Larrin and I remember him saying he didn't understand the Kirk argument. Guys just look at that kind of stuff differently. The hot woman factor just melts their brains. I don't think he ever really bought into shipping John with anyone on the show. If so, why did he make such a fuss about being all alone on the balcony at the end when everybody else was in a relationship? And why make that request of SGARising? He never thought John was serious about anybody. Sadly, that includes Liz.

[TheLadyMore]

OT - ever felt like you're trying to talk to someone, but it's like you're talking to a wall?

*raises hand* My whole experience in high school....if you need someone to rant to....I am studying to be a psychologist so I have two open ears!

[gateraid]

Indeed. You could tell her backseat driving got on his last nerve.



Calling her "doctor" was obviously a defense mechanism to remind her that just because they were in her quarters didn't mean she could get personal. And boy did he put a stop to her whining with that "peaked" comment. He pretended to be kidding but he meant it. You could almost hear him snicker at her inflated sense of self importance. It must have been all he could do to keep from rolling his eyes.

He must have been using those wandering eyes of his not to check her out, but look for something to stab her with. That wasn't in his pants

Which just proves once again what a stupid woman and a bad leader she was. She should never have put herself in danger like that. Caldwell should have been more forceful and taken over her job as well as Sheppard's.

I for one would be eager to see Lorne saunter into Caldwell's office, and casually sit himself down on his desk. Corne/StEvan could sizzle up the screen better than John/Liz ever could.

He must have been trying to think of ways to kill her all the time. That must have been why he went on so many suicide missions. If he couldn't kill her, he'd just as soon die to get away from her because if she hugged him again he wouldn't be able to stand it. His body language when she was around just said it all....the lip licking, softening of the voice, gazing into her eyes for long minutes, invading her personal space, sitting on her desk and leaning over towards her...all that just screamed discomfort. Oh wait...

Yep, killing her was his number one thought. I bet his mind often wandered back to this - they say guys think about killing girls every thirty seconds or so.

I like the new doctor. We've been watching it since almost the beginning and for some reason always seem to adjust well to the new doc.

I like him, it's just that s5 seemed so different to s4. I appreciated it being slightly less campy than the previous season, which has always been one of my criticisms of the newer show (along with the massive focus on ship).

Well, it's obvious, Jack was just in shock. Or maybe she has such a reputation for sexual harassment, he had just learned to expect inappropriate behavior from her. He did encourage her though by always calling her by her first name.

It must've been a real problem for poor Jack back when she was his boss at the SGC. Maybe that's why Daniel was so keen to ship her off to Antartica?

Why yes, we are always this crazy. But lately we have been dragging some of the false statements about Elizabeth and John and Elizabeth/John into the light and poking holes in them. I kinda like it. You new people probably think we're making it up but a lot of my stuff comes straight from the old days and repeats things that were said about her.

Some of it I don't remember either, but it looks ridiculous now. It amazes me how people can come up with such vastly different opinions of characters (disregarding ship) when we're all watching the same show.

WOW, you miss a few days on the Sparky thread and the conversation gets, um, "interesting".

It's been a busy week and I felt like hooey for half of it - sorry I missed out on all the "other pairing frivolity".

I did get up the guts to take out my Season 3 DVDs and re-watch "Irresistible". You know, I honestly had a hard time watching it. I don't think I was like that the first time I watched it, but man, seeing it now, I really tuned in to the "this guy is a smarmy, lewd, nasty b$st@rd" feeling. Ew, Yuck, OMG, WTF and I so want someone to kick this guy's @ss already, all rolled into one.

At least my re-watching it gave me some thoughts on the approach I want to take with my post-ep tag for the LJ writing challenge. No pain, no gain, right?

Anyhoo - to end this on a positive note......

HAPPY SATURDAY SPARKIES!

SPARKY IS ETERNAL!

It annoys me that in a 20 ep season, they had to devote two whole eps to that oaf. Two!!

Ok you and gateraid are very, very funny!!

I'd love to hear your ideas on this... why was John tearing up in Adrift?

:john: But....but....I finally had my chance to shine and she won't be around to see it. It seems like the IOA are trying to bypass her, and want more military input. I could've twisted the knife day after day after day until she finally had enough and left, broken. Noooooooo!!!!!!

I was reading the episode threads and I could see where some of this talk was coming from. In Submersion there were some who argued, quite vehemently, that Elizabeth should not have been there on a misison. Just for giggles, I went to the Reunion thread to see if those same people had an issue with Sam going on a mission and - surprise, surprise - that was perfectly fine!

Hey, we're rapidly approaching 107,000 posts! Will we have a party of some kind?

Submersion makes sense to me because it was an Atlantis outpost, on Lantea. They didn't really seem to have a hard and fast rule for her going off world. The Tower would've been ideal - it was an exact replica of Atlantis, they should have sent most of the scientists there (the in show reason also being that given that it was all on standing sets, it would've been an easy ep to add Weir into because it should have been shot quicker). Underground, when they found out about the Genii, should've involved her. By the same token, I'm not sure she should have been on the first contact team during Progeny, but whatever.

I didn't have a problem with Sam going in Reunion per se, but it seemed odd to me that she'd go then, but not in Midway, when Earth was about to be overrun (also, why didn't she think to dial Earth directly to block the Wraith dialling in from Midway??). The other thing I found odd in Reunion was that because she wasn't the lead actor, in a sense she was kinda deferring to Sheppard when they reunited.

It reminded me of a scene on SG-1 when the SGC was under attack from the replicators. They were all armed, including Hammond, and having a discussion about what to do next. In theory, they should've been talking to Hammond, but the way it was all shot and the dialogue itself made it look like they were all deferring to O'Neill (because RDA was the star).

The champagne is on ice and getting nicely chilled.

And it's meme time again!

Day the Nineteenth: Most annoying side character
Larrin. She always acted like such a mean-spirited, manhating little b***h, and I couldn't stand how she was always beating up on John and humiliating him. Sure, if you prefer a frakked up and dysfunctional relationship, then Larrin's your girl. But after all the crap John's been through, I think he deserves better than her.

Reading this, it makes me wonder if they didn't envision her as some sort of SGA Vala type character?

Oh, that's an easy one. First of all, he didn't tear up. You cannot prove those were tears. And besides, he was probably sad that he was stuck in the stupid control chair and wasn't around to witness what happened to her. All the times he had tried unsuccessfully to get her killed, like taking her on that mission in Submersion, and now when it finally happens he misses it. Bummer. So if there were tears, and like I said nobody can prove there were, they were tears of relief.

Yes, relief, that's it. Poor, jubilant Johnny.

Considering the opinion some authors have of John, it's no wonder he kept putting himself in Larrin's clutches. He likes getting tied up and beaten and humiliated. It feeds his raging case of PTSD.

Or they thought it was too cliche to have a woman in trouble all the time so they decided to put a macho man like John as the damsel in distress

Given some of the stuff that is on fanfiction, and possibly in certain novels by the same author, it's possible he could be a macho man in a dress sometime soon.

You know, it's funny you mention that. I actually kind of felt more sympathy for Ellis in that scene than Carter or McKay. I actually was on his side, I'd probably be pissed too if I came to a briefing hoping to see what weapons the scientists created against a threat as destructive as the replicators only for McKay to go on a long time wasting tangent in order to say they had nothing.

When Carter said "Is that clear?" for some reason I almost thought he should have broken into Captain Jack Sparrow's voice and said "inescapably... clear."

But then maybe I'm too hard on the scene, it just be that I was never as into Carter as her predecessor. I don't know what I would have thought if Elizabeth had gotten any sort of vaguely similar scene.

Rodney should've been reigned in, no question. In fact, the briefing probably shouldn't have happened if he wasn't ready. But the whole scene was a setup for the smackdown. I too found the scene to be a massive fail, as the tension was fake, and the threat was unlikely - what, was she going to turn away the next lot of supplies the Apollo brought in? Or refuse their assistance if Atlantis was under attack? That'd go down really well with her superiors. I also question why Carter went on the Deadalus to man the weapons console instead of staying on Atlantis to help McKay when she is meant to be smarter than him.

I doubt that scene would've been there if Weir were there. For one thing, she would've told McKay to get to the point before Ellis did. Although maybe John would've taken the Colonel aside later on and had a quiet word with him?

Ugh, just when I read this I'm glad I skipped Larrin episodes. back in S4 I was still feeling really bummed out that Elizabeth was gone, and then there was this "Sheppard should do a hot looking chick". Yuck. Glad I skipped. I think writers have done a disservice to john on number of occasions, this being one of them.

Travellers was kinda boring IMO. You wouldn't have missed a lot by not watching it.

OT - ever felt like you're trying to talk to someone, but it's like you're talking to a wall?

Frequently

[Scary Kitty]

You know, it's funny you mention that. I actually kind of felt more sympathy for Ellis in that scene than Carter or McKay. I actually was on his side, I'd probably be pissed too if I came to a briefing hoping to see what weapons the scientists created against a threat as destructive as the replicators only for McKay to go on a long time wasting tangent in order to say they had nothing.

When Carter said "Is that clear?" for some reason I almost thought he should have broken into Captain Jack Sparrow's voice and said "inescapably... clear."

But then maybe I'm too hard on the scene, it just be that I was never as into Carter as her predecessor. I don't know what I would have thought if Elizabeth had gotten any sort of vaguely similar scene.

Just to go off on a bit of a tangent, Jack Sparrow on Atlantis would make one heckuva crazy crackfic.

You might could look at some of the scenes in Trinity as sort of a comparison. The one when John and Caldwell were in Elizabeth's office trying to convince her that powering up the weapon was a good idea. It was military vs. diplomat. I think she handled it superbly, showing them exactly what she thought and yet listening to their argument. It was different from the Sam/Ellis scene in that Caldwell knew them both well. I loved how he kept glancing over at John and back at her when he saw that John was doing more to convince her than he was. LOL

She also handled what's his name well in Siege II. I can't think of his name and don't have time to look him up but I'm talking about the macho Marine colonel. He ended up eating out of her hand. But I don't think Elizabeth was ever rude or condescending.

Colonel Everett? Yeah, she totally had him wanting to buy her drinks. Everybody falls in love with Lizzeh.

I was never really buying the Kirk personality. one of my friends said that PTW "created John, realized he was something beautifulč and then went on to destroy the beauty of their creation." he had to have a flaw, only it feels like an unnecessary flaw, at least to me. John is already imperfect, in a realistic way that doesn't make him unlovable. Making him a "Kirk" felt like the writers tried to make us love him less. I usually ignore the Kirk aspect all together. Of course the girls fall for him - why wouldn't they? But I definitely don't agree with "thinking with the other head" definition of John who is anything but careless when it comes to relationships.

My opinions, of course.

I think that's a great way to describe what happened with TPTW and what they did to John. No wonder Joe was so disappointed in them.

Joe liked Larrin and I remember him saying he didn't understand the Kirk argument. Guys just look at that kind of stuff differently. The hot woman factor just melts their brains. I don't think he ever really bought into shipping John with anyone on the show. If so, why did he make such a fuss about being all alone on the balcony at the end when everybody else was in a relationship? And why make that request of SGARising? He never thought John was serious about anybody. Sadly, that includes Liz.

But if that's the case, then why make that comment about wanting John to date someone who was, "like, my boss." Joe, you clever, clever man.

[Scary Kitty]

Oh, and by the way, we just hit 107,000 posts. YEE HAW!!!!

*opens up the champagne and starts passing around glasses*

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Just to go off on a bit of a tangent, Jack Sparrow on Atlantis would make one heckuva crazy crackfic.

My brain seems to come up with a lot of ideas for those.

[gateraid]

You might could look at some of the scenes in Trinity as sort of a comparison. The one when John and Caldwell were in Elizabeth's office trying to convince her that powering up the weapon was a good idea. It was military vs. diplomat. I think she handled it superbly, showing them exactly what she thought and yet listening to their argument. It was different from the Sam/Ellis scene in that Caldwell knew them both well. I loved how he kept glancing over at John and back at her when he saw that John was doing more to convince her than he was. LOL

That is an excellent example. I wish I'd thought of it

She also handled what's his name well in Siege II. I can't think of his name and don't have time to look him up but I'm talking about the macho Marine colonel. He ended up eating out of her hand. But I don't think Elizabeth was ever rude or condescending.

Colonel Dylan Everett. No, she wasn't, she just got on with her job. Which at that time was finding the best way to defend Atlantis - getting some dodgy nukes.

No never. Everybody I talk to is reasonable and always ends up seeing things my way. Why do you ask?

*snort*

Joe liked Larrin and I remember him saying he didn't understand the Kirk argument. Guys just look at that kind of stuff differently. The hot woman factor just melts their brains. I don't think he ever really bought into shipping John with anyone on the show. If so, why did he make such a fuss about being all alone on the balcony at the end when everybody else was in a relationship? And why make that request of SGARising? He never thought John was serious about anybody. Sadly, that includes Liz.

I've never gotten the Kirk thing. If he's Kirk, then Carter must be a woman of the night, given the amount of dudes she's either been with, or had a thing for. Plus, like a black widow, she finds a way for them to die afterwards. Except Pete. The only time I saw John actively chasing someone (and even then, that's a bit of a stretch) was with that biologist. Then he dreamed Kolya had chopped his arm off, take from that what you will.

[TheLadyMore]

Just to go off on a bit of a tangent, Jack Sparrow on Atlantis would make one heckuva crazy crackfic.

Okay you just made imagine the whole team on Atlantis as pirates fighting with each other in the style of an webisode in Degrassi. Look at 1:15 and 2:06 at the two Sparky moments I see happening: