Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Boooooo! I'm sorry, my USA peeps.

Me too but Ghana was very good. Our goalie though is amazing.

Well, if it's not mentioned in canon, stay out of it then!! And if you do want to use Athosian society in your stories, make sure you do nothing that alters canon so much!!

My thoughts exactly. Expand on it but don't alter it.

They're loosely based on my personal life And by loosely, I mean not at all



Thanks for that. I'm not sure David would appreciate the fact that they've listed his character as being 40-50. I guess they dropped Bates, Parker and Smitty as members of the away team too. As well as Parker and Smitty completely.




But don't watch their tv show though It's on just before AFV here, and if I mistime it, I get the last few minutes of Jonas *shudders*



I can follow her reasoning at least, if not her conclusions. There's very little known about the Athosians. But I'd draw from what we know about Teyla, and Halling. Interestingly, Halling probably gives us more insight than Teyla. They have traditions, are religious in a sense, value spirituality. Perhaps its a leap to use that information to extrapolate their beliefs on love, life, and sexuality, but if you don't at least incorporate that in somewhere, its a little foolish.

I also agree with this. She did explain her reasoning here very well. I just think it's faulty because she starts with a conclusion and works backwards, discarding facts that don't fit. I wonder if she was a politician in another life. There is a ton of stuff we could extrapolate from Halling's actions in 38 Minutes alone. And there are bunches of tidbits scattered throughout the 5 years. Why not put those together and add to them instead of thowing it all out and starting over? Yes it's painful not to get your ship preference but you can't reinvent canon. Personally, I'd love to break up McKeller, but we are gritting our teeth and staying with canon in our SS6. I'd at least expect the "official" books to do the same with all the ships.

[Scary Kitty]

My thoughts exactly. Expand on it but don't alter it.



I also agree with this. She did explain her reasoning here very well. I just think it's faulty because she starts with a conclusion and works backwards, discarding facts that don't fit. I wonder if she was a politician in another life. There is a ton of stuff we could extrapolate from Halling's actions in 38 Minutes alone. And there are bunches of tidbits scattered throughout the 5 years. Why not put those together and add to them instead of thowing it all out and starting over? Yes it's painful not to get your ship preference but you can't reinvent canon. Personally, I'd love to break up McKeller, but we are gritting our teeth and staying with canon in our SS6. I'd at least expect the "official" books to do the same with all the ships.

This, this and this.

The whole point of having "officially licensed" books is to give the fans additional adventures with their favorite characters in a way that is consistent with canon. The books are supposed to work with canon, not cherry pick what they do and don't like and make up a bunch of nonsense that has no evidence to back it up in established canon fact. Look at us! We don't like what happened to Elizabeth on the show, but instead of ignoring it or handwaving a Dallas-esque cliche in the very first episode, we've figured out a way to slowly and logically bring her back that works with all the plot twists that TPTW threw into the mix, that takes all the character development since that time into account, and doesn't insult our audience's intelligence. I think we can safely say that our Season 6 is the true heir to the spirit of the real Stargate Atlantis.

[Southern Red]

This, this and this.

The whole point of having "officially licensed" books is to give the fans additional adventures with their favorite characters in a way that is consistent with canon. The books are supposed to work with canon, not cherry pick what they do and don't like and make up a bunch of nonsense that has no evidence to back it up in established canon fact. Look at us! We don't like what happened to Elizabeth on the show, but instead of ignoring it or handwaving a Dallas-esque cliche in the very first episode, we've figured out a way to slowly and logically bring her back that works with all the plot twists that TPTW threw into the mix, that takes all the character development since that time into account, and doesn't insult our audience's intelligence. I think we can safely say that our Season 6 is the true heir to the spirit of the real Stargate Atlantis.

Hear hear! And that's why these books upset us so. Canon is canon dammit.

[Scary Kitty]

Hear hear! And that's why these books upset us so. Canon is canon dammit.

I think you just came up with another tagline for Season 6!

[Southern Red]

I think you just came up with another tagline for Season 6!

We must add it to the growing list. LOL

[Scary Kitty]

We must add it to the growing list. LOL

*snickers* Yeah, I keep losing count; how many taglines do we have now? LOL!

[Anuna]

See, don't judge a book or in this case a band by its cover.

***

And the Lemming had mail again... I had a reply to my earlier reply (see previous page I think for rest of the comment plus link):

Spoiler:

I think there are a whole bunch of different places one could go with backstory and be canonical -- because canon really gives us so little! For example, we have no idea what kinds of relationships Athosians consider normal. We don't know if they even have marriage, as no one is ever referred to as a husband or wife. We don't know if they're polygamous or matriarchal and polyandrous. We don't know if they have divorce. We don't know if they practice infant or child betrothal, or none at all. And so any of those choices would be legitmately canonical!

Different people are going to make different ones, depending on what they're particularly interested in. Is this a matrifocal society with clan marriage taboos like the Iroquois? Is this a polygamous matrilinial society like some of the ancient nomads of Central Asia? Is this a society where marriages are arranged in early childhood to secure genetic diversity and prevent becoming too closely related? All of those would be interesting choices, and so are many others.

Fanfic exists so that all of the possibilities can exist. But I have to choose one and be consistent about it, build a world around it, and build these characters' relationships around it. Other writers might make different choices, and that's cool! I hope mine is enjoyable as well as logical and respectful.

***

So many things... I must admit that I sometimes forget how much goes into character-building and in this case people/tribe-building.

I have largely been of the side that puts the Athosians down as a matriarchal society. I think it started when Torren was named after Teyla's father while Teyla introduced herself in Rising as Daughter of Tagan. I ran with it...

And true, they missed the ball a little when it comes to Athosian development. I think we know more about the Goa'uld and how they act(ed) as a society than the Athosians. Hunter-gatherers from what I can tell in season 1, yet traders often going off-world. A few tidbits here and there... And darn it, I so would have loved to have seen more of them, known more. *shakes angry fist*

But nevertheless it's an interesting topic, which results in many long and deep discussions. I know I had my fair share. You just added a whole lot more material though - stuff that hadn't even crossed my mind.
Someone should just write an Athosian Encyclopedia... Like a companion guide to the seasons, but instead of the characters and the episodes, it would be about the Athosians (or other tribes and/or species - the Wraith shouldn't feel left out).

No mention of polyam...polyromance...poly-something nomads though...

I love how she's throwing big words into this, and avoiding the tiny little fact that freakin' canon states that teyla and Kanaan are the same age.

[Scary Kitty]

I love how she's throwing big words into this, and avoiding the tiny little fact that freakin' canon states that teyla and Kanaan are the same age.

*snorts* Indeed. At least we research our stories.

[gateraid]

*snickers*



Maybe Parker and Smitty were the two guards who got shot by Kolya in The Storm?

Do you mean those two idiots who lowered the shield without authorisation?

*whistles innocently*

It's on the Disney Channel, which yes I watch... Sonny With A Chance - Jonas - Wizards Of Waverly Place.

Each to their own I guess. I haven't heard of the other two though. One thing I've been wondering - is the dad on the show their real life dad, or an actor?

Stopped watching after episode 3.

Now I don't feel so bad about not watching it, although I'll probably get it out on dvd

Me too but Ghana was very good. Our goalie though is amazing.



My thoughts exactly. Expand on it but don't alter it.



I also agree with this. She did explain her reasoning here very well. I just think it's faulty because she starts with a conclusion and works backwards, discarding facts that don't fit. I wonder if she was a politician in another life. There is a ton of stuff we could extrapolate from Halling's actions in 38 Minutes alone. And there are bunches of tidbits scattered throughout the 5 years. Why not put those together and add to them instead of thowing it all out and starting over? Yes it's painful not to get your ship preference but you can't reinvent canon. Personally, I'd love to break up McKeller, but we are gritting our teeth and staying with canon in our SS6. I'd at least expect the "official" books to do the same with all the ships.

I find it hard to argue with her, simply because TPTW did such a poor job with the Athosians. I didn't even realise until I read the omnipedia thing the other day that Teyla was no longer their leader. It'd make it a lot easier if they'd written a show bible, if only to help the writers.

And I suppose there is some precedent for inventing backstory - look at John's marriage in Sunday. That came out of nowhere. Presumably Weir knew, given that she'd seen his file. That might've been an interesting conversation for the two of them to have - why it didn't work out with Simon/Nancy

[Scary Kitty]

Do you mean those two idiots who lowered the shield without authorisation?

Yup, those two.

I find it hard to argue with her, simply because TPTW did such a poor job with the Athosians. I didn't even realise until I read the omnipedia thing the other day that Teyla was no longer their leader. It'd make it a lot easier if they'd written a show bible, if only to help the writers.

I find it quite easy to argue with her on the grounds of all the canon facts that she is ignoring to create her backstory. It'd be one thing if she was simply coming up with reasonable explanations for what we actually saw/heard on the show; heck, we're doing the same thing, and if all she was doing was enhancing canon like we are, that'd be fine. But what she's doing goes far beyond that.

And I suppose there is some precedent for inventing backstory - look at John's marriage in Sunday. That came out of nowhere. Presumably Weir knew, given that she'd seen his file. That might've been an interesting conversation for the two of them to have - why it didn't work out with Simon/Nancy

Something we'll need to address in Atlantis Rising... though probably not until Season 7.

[gateraid]

Yup, those two.

Natural selection wasn't it?

I find it quite easy to argue with her on the grounds of all the canon facts that she is ignoring to create her backstory. It'd be one thing if she was simply coming up with reasonable explanations for what we actually saw/heard on the show; heck, we're doing the same thing, and if all she was doing was enhancing canon like we are, that'd be fine. But what she's doing goes far beyond that.

Oh, yeah, she's making **** up, and I don't agree with her interpretation. I meant that because of the paucity of information, she has to make stuff up. It's not like anyone can truly argue with her, and say 'it should be x', because it's all interpretation. Some better than others I fear. If TPTW had bothered to show a little more about the Athosians, then the arguement would be moot.

One could even argue that the convo Teyla had with Lorne (playing DA) in The Kindred was due to Teyla not thinking she could protect a child, based on the failure to protect the previous one. I don't believe that, Teyla would've corrected Lorne if she'd had kids/been married before, but I'm sure that'll be one of the justifications

Something we'll need to address in Atlantis Rising... though probably not until Season 7.

It's a pity they never mentioned it in s1 - a convo in even s2 would've seemed a bit out of place, given that Weir would've known about Nancy all that time. Maybe in the context of how they're reluctant to get together because of past failures (and Weir doesn't want Shep to go crazy and get a perm if they break up) it might be worth mentioning

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Question regarding Atlants rising episodes titles are you guys going to keep most of the episodes titles the same or are you guys going to change some of them? And also I would like to write the penultimate episode before the two-Part season finale or of there are any open slots I would like on contribute.

[KrisRussel]

Goodmorning Sparkies.
I wish everyone a happy lazy sunday.
Just heard that I can't watch the England/Germany match *pouts*
But I'll be working on the download section some more

[Falcon Horus]

My thoughts exactly. Expand on it but don't alter it.

As far as the books go... I think there will be more altering than expanding, not something I'm looking for. Then again I have to admit to not actually having read any book - mostly due to there not being my favorite character because she's too secondary and most authors either don't like her or forget about her (in Legacy she's being replaced due to being dead - but honestly if she had been alive I really wouldn't have wanted to know her backstory - that is if she'd gotten one).

There is a ton of stuff we could extrapolate from Halling's actions in 38 Minutes alone. And there are bunches of tidbits scattered throughout the 5 years.

I think I may just write that Athosian guidebook myself.

Personally, I'd love to break up McKeller, but we are gritting our teeth and staying with canon in our SS6. I'd at least expect the "official" books to do the same with all the ships.

All McKeller really needs is a good writer who is willing to write it like a relationship that has come from somewhere. Personally, I too would like to just break them up because I'm in favor of Katie/Rodney, and McKeller simply doesn't work for me as far as dynamic goes.

Do you mean those two idiots who lowered the shield without authorisation?

Yup, those two. Who were talking about bacon before the gate activated.

One thing I've been wondering - is the dad on the show their real life dad, or an actor?

Actor, and so is the rest of the cast, except for the brothers of course and Frankie who really is the Bonus Jonas.

Sonny With A Chance stars Demi Lovato, and in Wizards of Waverly Place you can see David Deluise as the dad.

[Southern Red]

I love how she's throwing big words into this, and avoiding the tiny little fact that freakin' canon states that teyla and Kanaan are the same age.

Sounds like misdirection. Dazzle them with "facts" and they overlook your fallacious arguments.

Question regarding Atlants rising episodes titles are you guys going to keep most of the episodes titles the same or are you guys going to change some of them? And also I would like to write the penultimate episode before the two-Part season finale or of there are any open slots I would like on contribute.

You'll have to talk to Eri about fic assignments. She's got it all covered. And some of the titles will change if the authors choose a different one but most have been voted on and set.

As far as the books go... I think there will be more altering than expanding, not something I'm looking for. Then again I have to admit to not actually having read any book - mostly due to there not being my favorite character because she's too secondary and most authors either don't like her or forget about her (in Legacy she's being replaced due to being dead - but honestly if she had been alive I really wouldn't have wanted to know her backstory - that is if she'd gotten one).



I think I may just write that Athosian guidebook myself.



All McKeller really needs is a good writer who is willing to write it like a relationship that has come from somewhere. Personally, I too would like to just break them up because I'm in favor of Katie/Rodney, and McKeller simply doesn't work for me as far as dynamic goes.



Yup, those two. Who were talking about bacon before the gate activated.




Actor, and so is the rest of the cast, except for the brothers of course and Frankie who really is the Bonus Jonas.

Sonny With A Chance stars Demi Lovato, and in Wizards of Waverly Place you can see David Deluise as the dad.

Definitely more altering than expanding. I'd love for you to write that Athosian history. I'll help with research.

I've only read a few of the books, 3 I think, and I don't recall any elaborate backstory on anyone and certainly nothing different than in canon. They take the facts from canon and expand on them within the context of the story. They don't come up with new ideas. There's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in the Legacy books, but the extent to which everything is being turned topsy turvy is just ridiculous. It sounds like they are trying to change everything to make it the way they see it all at once. If it were me, I'd be a bit more subtle. We don't need a tome on Athosian history. Just a few sentences about marriage, birth, courtship, etc. Suddenly coming up with former husbands and children and all that makes it even more like fanfic. I mean how many different combinations of brothers and hometowns and former jobs has Elizabeth had? But I don't recall any of that making it into a book that gen fans will want to read.