Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[KrisRussel]

All McKeller really needs is a good writer who is willing to write it like a relationship that has come from somewhere. Personally, I too would like to just break them up because I'm in favor of Katie/Rodney, and McKeller simply doesn't work for me as far as dynamic goes.

I'm also pro Katie/Rodney... their dynamic was great and cute and it felt right.
Keller/Mckay does not feel right, it isn't great and cute... and I'd rather see it go too. But yeah, we keep to canon in season 6, so we keep them together.

I've only read a few of the books, 3 I think, and I don't recall any elaborate backstory on anyone and certainly nothing different than in canon. They take the facts from canon and expand on them within the context of the story. They don't come up with new ideas. There's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in the Legacy books, but the extent to which everything is being turned topsy turvy is just ridiculous. It sounds like they are trying to change everything to make it the way they see it all at once. If it were me, I'd be a bit more subtle. We don't need a tome on Athosian history. Just a few sentences about marriage, birth, courtship, etc. Suddenly coming up with former husbands and children and all that makes it even more like fanfic. I mean how many different combinations of brothers and hometowns and former jobs has Elizabeth had? But I don't recall any of that making it into a book that gen fans will want to read.

Exactly!! If canon never gives any references to brothers or sisters or nieces/nephews or former husbands/wives/kids, you do not use that in a piece of literature that many consider part of canon. Not unless you have specific authorization from the original show runners. Which I'm every sure she never got.
It'd be like suddenly giving John and Nancy a child...

[Southern Red]

I'm also pro Katie/Rodney... their dynamic was great and cute and it felt right.
Keller/Mckay does not feel right, it isn't great and cute... and I'd rather see it go too. But yeah, we keep to canon in season 6, so we keep them together.



Exactly!! If canon never gives any references to brothers or sisters or nieces/nephews or former husbands/wives/kids, you do not use that in a piece of literature that many consider part of canon. Not unless you have specific authorization from the original show runners. Which I'm every sure she never got.
It'd be like suddenly giving John and Nancy a child...

Don't give her any ideas. Who knows but that the loss of a child will be what broke up John and Nancy. Oh wait, that would probably be his affair with one of his USAF buds. LOL

I liked Rodney/Katie too. Age appropriate and just cute. She got him and he seemed to love her. Why propose otherwise? Bad writing once again.

I guess these writers have been given the go ahead to write new canon like adding backstory which would be okay if it made sense along with the already established canon. For example I wouldn't mind the former child for Teyla if it didn't violate specific canon. And the explanation for dumping Kanaan is going to be so far in left field nobody will believe it.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I liked Rodney and Katie much better than Rodney and Keller but the whole affair didn't exactly reflect well on McKay. He was actually asking her to spend the rest of her life with him and after she broke up with him he never came across as anything than mildly inconvenienced and confused by the whole thing. The fact that the scene where Keller explained why she wasn't with Ronon was cut from Trio didn't help her either. Both of them came off as incredibly shallow, which made the "I suddenly love you" scenes even more jarring than they would have been. In fact Rodney in general seemed like he was an emotional flip-flopper. After Elizabeth was lost he seemed to alternate between "completely unconcerned" and "devastated". I know that probably isn't the implication of their intention to write the character but he came across that way. As far as McKeller goes, I never really cared for the idea in general beforehand, but I wouldn't have minded it so much if it had been written and showed differently. I don't automatically like or dislike a paring just because the idea initially appeals or repulses me. The way the story is built is the biggest factor. I mentioned a while back that one of the others I liked from elsewhere on TV was Angel and Cordelia. When I first heard about the idea (way before I had actually seen it) I didn't care for the notion at all really, I thought it would have been too cliche. but after I actually saw the build upon it won me over pretty emphatically. So to speak.

[Eri13]

This, this and this.

The whole point of having "officially licensed" books is to give the fans additional adventures with their favorite characters in a way that is consistent with canon. The books are supposed to work with canon, not cherry pick what they do and don't like and make up a bunch of nonsense that has no evidence to back it up in established canon fact. Look at us! We don't like what happened to Elizabeth on the show, but instead of ignoring it or handwaving a Dallas-esque cliche in the very first episode, we've figured out a way to slowly and logically bring her back that works with all the plot twists that TPTW threw into the mix, that takes all the character development since that time into account, and doesn't insult our audience's intelligence. I think we can safely say that our Season 6 is the true heir to the spirit of the real Stargate Atlantis.

Not only that, but we're taking many of our cues from the actually show runners postulated what 'would have been' in their season 6. Even though we have a beef with them for what they did to our favorite character. And we're not manipulating those cues into fulfilling our fantasies, we're trying to follow them to a logical end.

Natural selection wasn't it?

Oh, yeah, she's making **** up, and I don't agree with her interpretation. I meant that because of the paucity of information, she has to make stuff up. It's not like anyone can truly argue with her, and say 'it should be x', because it's all interpretation. Some better than others I fear. If TPTW had bothered to show a little more about the Athosians, then the arguement would be moot.

One could even argue that the convo Teyla had with Lorne (playing DA) in The Kindred was due to Teyla not thinking she could protect a child, based on the failure to protect the previous one. I don't believe that, Teyla would've corrected Lorne if she'd had kids/been married before, but I'm sure that'll be one of the justifications

It's a pity they never mentioned it in s1 - a convo in even s2 would've seemed a bit out of place, given that Weir would've known about Nancy all that time. Maybe in the context of how they're reluctant to get together because of past failures (and Weir doesn't want Shep to go crazy and get a perm if they break up) it might be worth mentioning

Under that theory, though, you could make up ANYTHING you wanted. We don't know anything about John, either, so he could be bi. Just because he's been married doesn't mean he's not sexually liberated. Or he and Elizabeth could have had a 'friends with benefits' relationship through Season 2; there's nothing to disprove that either because there's nothing in canon that denies it; there's just nothing in canon that supports it--but oh, wait, remember how John was all eager to be 'Thalen' in TLG? That was because he'd already 'tapped that' and didn't want anyone else doing it. =\

Arguing that 'you don't see enough' just leaves you open to interpret any damn thing you want. Which is why I believe in taking it in whole and applying what makes the most sense. So I agree that how they defined 'marriage' is shaky--they could have had life partners or have marriage ceremonies--but this business about Kanaan being older than Teyla and both having other families is ludicrous at best and very weakly supported by what we have in canon about the Athosians. I mean, lines like this:

TEYLA: You are all I have left. My family – my mother, my father – they are all gone. (Her eyes start to fill with tears.) If you leave me, I will truly be alone.

CHARIN: No. Your people are your family, Teyla – and as you look to them, so they will look to you. They *need* your strength

Show that they valued personal families as much as their people. Charin's words are no different than anyone in one of our cultures would say to someone who has lost a personal family but has others who love them as one of their own.

Question regarding Atlants rising episodes titles are you guys going to keep most of the episodes titles the same or are you guys going to change some of them? And also I would like to write the penultimate episode before the two-Part season finale or of there are any open slots I would like on contribute.

We have that penultimate episode open, but there are very strict rules about the build of these episodes that we'd need your assurance before you take it on. These episodes are going to be long, built like show episodes (five parts, as though there are commercials) and will be beta read very heavily. There may be significant changes to them based on continuity and in keeping with our trying to be very general-fan focused.

If you're okay with that you're welcome to take it on! And you need to write up the first 20 or so minutes of Echoes so you can get a feel to what it will be like writing these episodes. Up to the first american commercial break, which is right after Elizabeth sees the burned man in the elevator for the first time.

Sounds like misdirection. Dazzle them with "facts" and they overlook your fallacious arguments.

You'll have to talk to Eri about fic assignments. She's got it all covered. And some of the titles will change if the authors choose a different one but most have been voted on and set.

Definitely more altering than expanding. I'd love for you to write that Athosian history. I'll help with research.

I've only read a few of the books, 3 I think, and I don't recall any elaborate backstory on anyone and certainly nothing different than in canon. They take the facts from canon and expand on them within the context of the story. They don't come up with new ideas. There's nothing wrong with doing that, especially in the Legacy books, but the extent to which everything is being turned topsy turvy is just ridiculous. It sounds like they are trying to change everything to make it the way they see it all at once. If it were me, I'd be a bit more subtle. We don't need a tome on Athosian history. Just a few sentences about marriage, birth, courtship, etc. Suddenly coming up with former husbands and children and all that makes it even more like fanfic. I mean how many different combinations of brothers and hometowns and former jobs has Elizabeth had? But I don't recall any of that making it into a book that gen fans will want to read.

I read all the books, and other than a few quirky things (like in Mirror, Mirror the author definitely played to the Teyla/Ronon relationship while in Halcyon the author played to Teyla/John and Teyla/Ronon as competitive) they were straight on canon. Nothing about backstories. I want to say that in one of them there was a dogtag that showed John as Catholic and that was a big deal because it was presuming something of his past. And in another Ronon's wraith 'immunity' was mentioned and that ended up being wrong because he was later fed on--and that was canon contradicting itself, not the author's fault.

The authors all characterized the characters differently, but they've treaded lightly where canon and potentially contradicting it was concerned.

[KrisRussel]

England is loosing soooooooooo badly....
Happy for you though Fionnait

[Falcon Horus]

I'd love for you to write that Athosian history. I'll help with research.

Could be my next project. Holidays are coming up in three weeks so I may just get started on that.

[Probie]

England is loosing soooooooooo badly....
Happy for you though Fionnait

Oh yes she's happy even if she didn't see the goals.lol But the referee is stupid. He did many mistakes.
I'm sorry to admit this, Fionnait, but I will bet for Argentina the next round.....Don't kill me.

If you have 15mins....vid. It's not Sparky but a litlle vid about SGA in general.

[Probie]

Could be my next project. Holidays are coming up in three weeks so I may just get started on that.

Three weeks.....You're lucky.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday!

Natural selection wasn't it?

Pretty much.

Oh, yeah, she's making **** up, and I don't agree with her interpretation. I meant that because of the paucity of information, she has to make stuff up. It's not like anyone can truly argue with her, and say 'it should be x', because it's all interpretation. Some better than others I fear. If TPTW had bothered to show a little more about the Athosians, then the arguement would be moot.

One could even argue that the convo Teyla had with Lorne (playing DA) in The Kindred was due to Teyla not thinking she could protect a child, based on the failure to protect the previous one. I don't believe that, Teyla would've corrected Lorne if she'd had kids/been married before, but I'm sure that'll be one of the justifications

See, and that's just it. Her 'arguments' are more in the vein of twisting the facts to get the result she wants, instead of, as Eri put it, following them to their logical end.

It's a pity they never mentioned it in s1 - a convo in even s2 would've seemed a bit out of place, given that Weir would've known about Nancy all that time. Maybe in the context of how they're reluctant to get together because of past failures (and Weir doesn't want Shep to go crazy and get a perm if they break up) it might be worth mentioning

*nods* Like in Letters From Pegasus, for example.

As far as the books go... I think there will be more altering than expanding, not something I'm looking for. Then again I have to admit to not actually having read any book - mostly due to there not being my favorite character because she's too secondary and most authors either don't like her or forget about her (in Legacy she's being replaced due to being dead - but honestly if she had been alive I really wouldn't have wanted to know her backstory - that is if she'd gotten one).

*snorts* Hell, they're doing that with Elizabeth. The most we're going to get is another stupid 'we're going to dangle her in front of your faces but you don't get to keep her, nyah nyah nyah' story that just makes a bunch of silly, out-of-character excuses for everyone not trying to do anything to save her, like we got all throughout Seasons 4 and 5. Pathetic.

I think I may just write that Athosian guidebook myself.

You totally should!

Yup, those two. Who were talking about bacon before the gate activated.

And then got turned into bacon. Metaphorically speaking.

Exactly!! If canon never gives any references to brothers or sisters or nieces/nephews or former husbands/wives/kids, you do not use that in a piece of literature that many consider part of canon. Not unless you have specific authorization from the original show runners. Which I'm every sure she never got.
It'd be like suddenly giving John and Nancy a child...

She didn't. They got an okay from MGM's merchandise division (which apparently consists of one guy working part-time... there's half the problem right there!), but TPTW have no say in the merchandising side of the business, according to Mallozzi.

Not only that, but we're taking many of our cues from the actually show runners postulated what 'would have been' in their season 6. Even though we have a beef with them for what they did to our favorite character. And we're not manipulating those cues into fulfilling our fantasies, we're trying to follow them to a logical end.

That too. We're simply trying to pick up where they left off, not go wandering off into left field.

Under that theory, though, you could make up ANYTHING you wanted. We don't know anything about John, either, so he could be bi. Just because he's been married doesn't mean he's not sexually liberated. Or he and Elizabeth could have had a 'friends with benefits' relationship through Season 2; there's nothing to disprove that either because there's nothing in canon that denies it; there's just nothing in canon that supports it--but oh, wait, remember how John was all eager to be 'Thalen' in TLG? That was because he'd already 'tapped that' and didn't want anyone else doing it. =\

*cackles* So true! Because, you know, John really likes his hot boss.

I read all the books, and other than a few quirky things (like in Mirror, Mirror the author definitely played to the Teyla/Ronon relationship while in Halcyon the author played to Teyla/John and Teyla/Ronon as competitive) they were straight on canon. Nothing about backstories. I want to say that in one of them there was a dogtag that showed John as Catholic and that was a big deal because it was presuming something of his past. And in another Ronon's wraith 'immunity' was mentioned and that ended up being wrong because he was later fed on--and that was canon contradicting itself, not the author's fault.

The authors all characterized the characters differently, but they've treaded lightly where canon and potentially contradicting it was concerned.

That bit with John's dog tags was from Mirror, Mirror. I'm still waiting for a set of Sheppard dog tags to show up in the Propworx auctions; they've had a number of tag sets from various characters already (including O'Neill, Carter, Bates, and Janet Frasier) that are all supposed to be screen-worn, so whatever information is on them is definitely 100% canon.

Oh, and don't even get me started on Halcyon and how the author fell into the same trap of oh-so-conveniently leaving Elizabeth at home even though the situation clearly called for a real diplomat to take charge. *headdesk*

[Falcon Horus]

Three weeks.....You're lucky.

That depends because this holiday that is coming up is three weeks that our company closes, which basically means I loose 15 holiday days of the 20 that I have in a year... and I can assure that is no fun. I don't want to be told when to take a holiday (especially not in a time when holidays are twice as expensive to book). I like to spread my holidays the way I would like them to be.

[Fionnait]

England is loosing soooooooooo badly....
Happy for you though Fionnait

Thank you. But I have to admit, the ball was in the goal. It's like an inverse Wembley Goal. This happened in 1966, and the ball was not in. Now it was in, but it wasn't given and screwed England over.
Not fair, but I'm happy nonetheless.

Oh yes she's happy even if she didn't see the goals.lol But the referee is stupid. He did many mistakes.
I'm sorry to admit this, Fionnait, but I will bet for Argentina the next round.....Don't kill me.

No killing! I would say it is wise to bet on Argentina. But it's difficult to tell. We've had two really good games (Australia, England) and two bad games (Serbia, Ghana). Depends on our form, I'd say!

[Probie]

That depends because this holiday that is coming up is three weeks that our company closes, which basically means I loose 15 holiday days of the 20 that I have in a year... and I can assure that is no fun. I don't want to be told when to take a holiday (especially not in a time when holidays are twice as expensive to book). I like to spread my holidays the way I would like them to be.

Same problem here. My company will be closed during 2 weeks. I will loose 15 days because I'm new in the company and I don't have "paid leave" but my boss is good and I will have a help. I'm not poor but the company forces me to stay in my house.

No killing! I would say it is wise to bet on Argentina. But it's difficult to tell. We've had two really good games (Australia, England) and two bad games (Serbia, Ghana). Depends on our form, I'd say!

No no. You had one good game. The one against Australia but it's normal. It's like us with Korea. The game against England was not so good because many mistakes from the referee. He refused one goal and prevent another one.
But now it's just a question of luck. It's 50.50.

[Scary Kitty]

*pokes head in and looks around*

Hellooo, anyone here? Wow, looks like everyone took the 'lazy day' moniker to heart!

[Falcon Horus]

*pokes head in and looks around*

Hellooo, anyone here? Wow, looks like everyone took the 'lazy day' moniker to heart!

I'm sorta here... writing... Underworld fic no less... *tosses a carrot far away for the bunny to fetch*

[Scary Kitty]

I'm sorta here... writing... Underworld fic no less... *tosses a carrot far away for the bunny to fetch*

Hee!

At the moment, I'm practicing my mad Photoshop skillz by working on an Atlantis blueprint based on that 'explore the city and watch behind-the-scenes videos' widget nephtys found for us last week. Looking pretty good so far...