Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Sorry to barge in again (if you haven’t guessed, I haven’t had a lot of internet time recently, hence my absence of this thread), but I’ve been watching s5 recently on dvd. On balance, I actually liked it (this coming from a staunch ANTI who thought s4 was abysmal). Sure, I’d change things - both within specific eps and throughout the season – but overall it was solid. I’d qualify that by reiterating that I waited & watched it on dvd, hence my expectations were much lower than if I waited every week for each episode. Here’s some more specific stuff:

Season 5

Spoiler:

Flannigan hit it out of the park with S & R. It was his best performance of the season (sadly, he also had some bad personal news at the time). I personally loved Carter in this ep (although I had a couple of very minor continuity/logic niggles with some of the things she did – how did she not know the Wraith dial the gate on attack; if she could use the ancient life signs detector, then why didn’t she [a trained pilot] fly the jumper instead of McKay…) and thought AT gave a great performance here too, especially during her scene with RP. It was the first time that the writers had actually written for Carter, rather than ‘the leader’, & the first time I thought that she had really stepped up as commander (as is usually the case when they write somebody out). RP was great as Woolsey, if a little too fast adapting to the position, although I did wonder if he had had one of those mini-strokes at the start of the year (I’d never noticed his facial movements when speaking before & it became really distracting). I did lament at some of Woolseys dialogue, if only because the same lines said by Weir would label her as a nagger/mother hen etc....

I was not a fan of the McKay/Keller/McKeller/Rodifer pairing previously, but found it relatively easy to ignore, as I did for most ship in s5. It’s amusing to me that on one hand, with almost zero build up, they get together, yet we are told to ignore UST in other pairings. I realise they probably pushed it along somewhat due to the cancellation, but it did seem rushed.
TPTW, probably by accident, did well to eliminate all ship in s5. I found Teyla/Kanaan believable, but they fell into the trap of writing Kanaan as a wimp - if you listen to the commentary during Broken Ties, the joke is that Teyla wears the pants in that relationship – and then forgetting about him for the rest of the year (like the rest of the Athosians). Interestingly, Jason said during that commentary that he saw Teyla/Shep, but the question was an either/or between that and Teyla/Ronon. Banks/Ronon seemed a big stretch to me (perhaps a Saturday night fling, not a relationship).

As I said, in general I liked s5. To me though, it seemed like they lacked an ark for the season. The quality of individual eps was okay, but filler eps like Brain Storm/Identity/Vegas didn’t actually add anything to the series as a whole (yes, I liked Vegas). All of that became apparent when the finale (the worst ep of the season no less) had zero build up & plot holes up the wazoo.

Ghost in the Machine

Spoiler:

NOT Elizabeth. I still would have felt that way if Torri had played the character. Flannigan gave another outstanding performance, but I didn’t buy that Shep (or even Rodney, given that he was such a strong advocate of allowing her to stay initially) would allow her to commit suicide again if they thought it was actually her. I got the impression that it was a replicator copy – an AI with her memories, but a different emotional and moral core.

How I would have changed it IF Torri were to come back

Spoiler:

Alter the dream sequence in S & R, still keeping the Teyla section, but have Ford morph into Weir, then have them all taunt him briefly (I’d cut out that weird CG zoom thing from the planet to Michael’s ship). At the end of GitM, Fran would have written a hidden file detailing that she was not the real Elizabeth, and that she knew where the Replicators took her (& placed her in stasis). Another ep would involved actually making a rescue attempt (successful of course). Woolsey would still be the Atlantis head, but Elizabeth would get to remain on base with minor screen time (over the course of the season, maybe three eps in total). In the last ep, I’d have Woolsey go back to Earth instead of Shep, leaving Weir in charge. I know it’s hokey, but she & Shep left Earth to find the city, it seems only fitting that they bring it back. Also no wormhole drive (that was stupid), they would get there using the good old stardrive, and NOT land on Earth.

I like the way you think. I liked S5 too and even though there was a sad lack of John and I found McKeller intrusive and inappropriate I still enjoyed most of the episodes. And no, they didn't hurry McKeller along. The commentary says they made no changes in the scripts after learning of the cancellation. They state without a doubt that they think McKeller was well developed.

[Scary Kitty]

Sorry to barge in again (if you haven’t guessed, I haven’t had a lot of internet time recently, hence my absence of this thread), but I’ve been watching s5 recently on dvd. On balance, I actually liked it (this coming from a staunch ANTI who thought s4 was abysmal). Sure, I’d change things - both within specific eps and throughout the season – but overall it was solid. I’d qualify that by reiterating that I waited & watched it on dvd, hence my expectations were much lower than if I waited every week for each episode. Here’s some more specific stuff:

Season 5

Spoiler:

Flannigan hit it out of the park with S & R. It was his best performance of the season (sadly, he also had some bad personal news at the time). I personally loved Carter in this ep (although I had a couple of very minor continuity/logic niggles with some of the things she did – how did she not know the Wraith dial the gate on attack; if she could use the ancient life signs detector, then why didn’t she [a trained pilot] fly the jumper instead of McKay…) and thought AT gave a great performance here too, especially during her scene with RP. It was the first time that the writers had actually written for Carter, rather than ‘the leader’, & the first time I thought that she had really stepped up as commander (as is usually the case when they write somebody out). RP was great as Woolsey, if a little too fast adapting to the position, although I did wonder if he had had one of those mini-strokes at the start of the year (I’d never noticed his facial movements when speaking before & it became really distracting). I did lament at some of Woolseys dialogue, if only because the same lines said by Weir would label her as a nagger/mother hen etc....

I was not a fan of the McKay/Keller/McKeller/Rodifer pairing previously, but found it relatively easy to ignore, as I did for most ship in s5. It’s amusing to me that on one hand, with almost zero build up, they get together, yet we are told to ignore UST in other pairings. I realise they probably pushed it along somewhat due to the cancellation, but it did seem rushed.
TPTW, probably by accident, did well to eliminate all ship in s5. I found Teyla/Kanaan believable, but they fell into the trap of writing Kanaan as a wimp - if you listen to the commentary during Broken Ties, the joke is that Teyla wears the pants in that relationship – and then forgetting about him for the rest of the year (like the rest of the Athosians). Interestingly, Jason said during that commentary that he saw Teyla/Shep, but the question was an either/or between that and Teyla/Ronon. Banks/Ronon seemed a big stretch to me (perhaps a Saturday night fling, not a relationship).

As I said, in general I liked s5. To me though, it seemed like they lacked an ark for the season. The quality of individual eps was okay, but filler eps like Brain Storm/Identity/Vegas didn’t actually add anything to the series as a whole (yes, I liked Vegas). All of that became apparent when the finale (the worst ep of the season no less) had zero build up & plot holes up the wazoo.

S5 was a little better than S4 in my eyes. I was never able to warm up to Carter because of the fact that there was no point to her being there; other characters (namely Sheppard and McKay) did the things on SGA that Carter was known for on SG-1, so I found myself thinking more than once, 'okay, why is she here again?' Woolsey, on the other hand, was neither fish nor fowl (much like Weir), and I found him more tolerable, especially when he started getting some fun little details, like having a frakin' wine rack in his quarters stocked with vintage wines. Or the hilarious rip-off of Boston Legal with Woolsey and Sheppard drinking scotch and smoking cigars out on The Balcony.

The lack of any major season-spanning arc left things feeling directionless, but I could tune out McKeller for the most part... except for Brain Storm. *headdesk* C'mon, guys, hitting us over the head with the so-called 'romance' is boring. The subtle nudge-nudge wink-wink vibe of Sparky was far more fun.

And let's not get started on the WTF-ery of Enemy at the Gate. *sighs*

Ghost in the Machine

Spoiler:

NOT Elizabeth. I still would have felt that way if Torri had played the character. Flannigan gave another outstanding performance, but I didn’t buy that Shep (or even Rodney, given that he was such a strong advocate of allowing her to stay initially) would allow her to commit suicide again if they thought it was actually her. I got the impression that it was a replicator copy – an AI with her memories, but a different emotional and moral core.

How I would have changed it IF Torri were to come back

Spoiler:

Alter the dream sequence in S & R, still keeping the Teyla section, but have Ford morph into Weir, then have them all taunt him briefly (I’d cut out that weird CG zoom thing from the planet to Michael’s ship). At the end of GitM, Fran would have written a hidden file detailing that she was not the real Elizabeth, and that she knew where the Replicators took her (& placed her in stasis). Another ep would involved actually making a rescue attempt (successful of course). Woolsey would still be the Atlantis head, but Elizabeth would get to remain on base with minor screen time (over the course of the season, maybe three eps in total). In the last ep, I’d have Woolsey go back to Earth instead of Shep, leaving Weir in charge. I know it’s hokey, but she & Shep left Earth to find the city, it seems only fitting that they bring it back. Also no wormhole drive (that was stupid), they would get there using the good old stardrive, and NOT land on Earth.

I've got to agree, it was totally NOT the original Elizabeth in GitM. A copy of her memories and consciousness, perhaps altered by whoever created her, and perhaps not even realizing that she was not the real deal.

And your idea for how to do it with Torri was awesome. I still believe that the fact that TPTW only offered Torri one episode was what truly killed GitM and the Weir storyline (at least for now), because it demonstrated that they were not serious about completing the Weir storyline and they were taking Torri and the fans lightly. It needed more than one episode; it probably needs more than one piddly little 90 minute movie if they're going to finish it without rushing it like they did with Ark of Truth. *sighs*

I like the way you think. I liked S5 too and even though there was a sad lack of John and I found McKeller intrusive and inappropriate I still enjoyed most of the episodes. And no, they didn't hurry McKeller along. The commentary says they made no changes in the scripts after learning of the cancellation. They state without a doubt that they think McKeller was well developed.

Well developed, my butt.

[Regularamanda]

Love the mini post-athon for conversion Kitty!

I just wnated to let you guys know of the Icontest on Sparky_4ever on Live Journal, this week is eye!sex, so if any of you guys feel like making icons...now's the perfect week to make them!

And if you want to be really awesome, you could take a minute to vote for the icons of Week 5 *bats eyelashes*

[Scary Kitty]

Heehee! Mini-post-a-thons are fun!

SyFy is running Tao of Rodney for this week's late Friday night/early Saturday morning episode. Sparky lunch date for the win.

And gee, whyever would a manly man like John have had all those candles that he set up for the meditation session? Unless he was saving them for a romantic evening for Lizzie.

[Anuna]

Well said, on S4 and S5, although GitM Elizabeth could work like Elizabeth to me.


With all that freaky Ancient tech they could have given her the proper body. (Well, they could have done LOT of things).

Spoiler:

McKeller was bad idea, Ronon/random chick was even a worse idea, the only ship in S5 that did made sense was Teyla/Kanaan, and heck, it is her who wears the pants. I have no problem with that. She is tough as nails, so we've been told how many times (but not shown too often), however I don't think Kanaan is a whimp if he seems more gentle than her. Some men are. They're still men. Teyla, who had a rough life, needs a man like that. Heck, even if they put her with John or Ronon there'd be situations where she still would wear the pants. I'd hate to see the other way around, writing her as mindless, weak damsel in distress. Well same goes for John/Elizabeth. Elizabeth is stronger in character than John in many aspects. Does that make him a wimp? No. I think Kanaan is just fine.

Finally, after the major brainfarth that was S4, where the writers did whole bunch of very cool things they had no use for, S5 couldn't really be better. Best thing they did - although I couldn't believe it was going to be a good thing - was bringing Woolsey. He did a lot to make S5 watchable. Thank you, but I just can't stand seeing Carter (written as Weir) in charge. Because it's not Carter, it's Amanda Tapping instead of Torri Higinson. Pooooo.

[Scary Kitty]

Well said, on S4 and S5, although GitM Elizabeth could work like Elizabeth to me.


With all that freaky Ancient tech they could have given her the proper body. (Well, they could have done LOT of things).

*cough*BigBang*cough*

Spoiler:

McKeller was bad idea, Ronon/random chick was even a worse idea, the only ship in S5 that did made sense was Teyla/Kanaan, and heck, it is her who wears the pants. I have no problem with that. She is tough as nails, so we've been told how many times (but not shown too often), however I don't think Kanaan is a whimp if he seems more gentle than her. Some men are. They're still men. Teyla, who had a rough life, needs a man like that. Heck, even if they put her with John or Ronon there'd be situations where she still would wear the pants. I'd hate to see the other way around, writing her as mindless, weak damsel in distress. Well same goes for John/Elizabeth. Elizabeth is stronger in character than John in many aspects. Does that make him a wimp? No. I think Kanaan is just fine.

That's a very good point. The best relationships are those in which each partner balances opposing aspects of the other partner. John and Elizabeth have that kind of balance. In fact, we've even seen them trade personality traits between them. For instance, sometimes it's John who's teasing and fun when Elizabeth's being serious, sometimes it's Elizabeth who's got that impish gleam in her eye to cheer up John when he's upset. And so forth. That portrayal was one of the few truly consistent things throughout the run of the show, and it's why they were the best pairing on Atlantis, hands down.

[Torri012]

Nope, just services that get blocked by our company's policy on social networking sites.

Deviantart is another that is flat out blocked.

It wasn't this particular piece of art I was referring to--you've posted pictures in the past where the links didn't show up at all on my computer. With this one, I could see the link, but it being on LJ, I couldn't see it.

Photobucket is one of the few that isn't blocked for me, so you could put it there...

gosh, that sucks xD
reminds me of my old college. everything was blocked there too

gooood at least something that works - or at least should

[Southern Red]

S5 was a little better than S4 in my eyes. I was never able to warm up to Carter because of the fact that there was no point to her being there; other characters (namely Sheppard and McKay) did the things on SGA that Carter was known for on SG-1, so I found myself thinking more than once, 'okay, why is she here again?' Woolsey, on the other hand, was neither fish nor fowl (much like Weir), and I found him more tolerable, especially when he started getting some fun little details, like having a frakin' wine rack in his quarters stocked with vintage wines. Or the hilarious rip-off of Boston Legal with Woolsey and Sheppard drinking scotch and smoking cigars out on The Balcony.

The lack of any major season-spanning arc left things feeling directionless, but I could tune out McKeller for the most part... except for Brain Storm. *headdesk* C'mon, guys, hitting us over the head with the so-called 'romance' is boring. The subtle nudge-nudge wink-wink vibe of Sparky was far more fun.

And let's not get started on the WTF-ery of Enemy at the Gate. *sighs*



I've got to agree, it was totally NOT the original Elizabeth in GitM. A copy of her memories and consciousness, perhaps altered by whoever created her, and perhaps not even realizing that she was not the real deal.

And your idea for how to do it with Torri was awesome. I still believe that the fact that TPTW only offered Torri one episode was what truly killed GitM and the Weir storyline (at least for now), because it demonstrated that they were not serious about completing the Weir storyline and they were taking Torri and the fans lightly. It needed more than one episode; it probably needs more than one piddly little 90 minute movie if they're going to finish it without rushing it like they did with Ark of Truth. *sighs*



Well developed, my butt.

Good point on GitM. John even said "you may think you're Elizabeth but you're not". Maybe right up until the end he still wasn't sure. I hate to think he knowingly let her sacrifice herself. But you know in Siege 2 she did the same for him.

They really did drop the ball on the whole Weir story and it's a bit refreshing to see how many non-shipper fans who didn't care all that much about her at the time now see that.

*cough*BigBang*cough*



That's a very good point. The best relationships are those in which each partner balances opposing aspects of the other partner. John and Elizabeth have that kind of balance. In fact, we've even seen them trade personality traits between them. For instance, sometimes it's John who's teasing and fun when Elizabeth's being serious, sometimes it's Elizabeth who's got that impish gleam in her eye to cheer up John when he's upset. And so forth. That portrayal was one of the few truly consistent things throughout the run of the show, and it's why they were the best pairing on Atlantis, hands down.

The old opposites attract idea. It would be too trite to put Teyla with a warrior, even Ronon had his gentle side and that's why they would work. But she would not do well with a dominant he man character. Neither would she be satisfied with a man from another culture. How many times have we heard her and Ronon speak about needing to get away from the Earth people? She would eventually have been very unhappy with John and he would have always felt something was missing with her.

John and Elizabeth's differences would have kept the spice in their relationship. The "neether-niither" moments would have kicked the flirting up a notch.

[Eri13]

gosh, that sucks xD
reminds me of my old college. everything was blocked there too

gooood at least something that works - or at least should

Finally saw it! Great! Torri with red hair is awesome!!!

Good point on GitM. John even said "you may think you're Elizabeth but you're not". Maybe right up until the end he still wasn't sure. I hate to think he knowingly let her sacrifice herself. But you know in Siege 2 she did the same for him.

They really did drop the ball on the whole Weir story and it's a bit refreshing to see how many non-shipper fans who didn't care all that much about her at the time now see that.

The old opposites attract idea. It would be too trite to put Teyla with a warrior, even Ronon had his gentle side and that's why they would work. But she would not do well with a dominant he man character. Neither would she be satisfied with a man from another culture. How many times have we heard her and Ronon speak about needing to get away from the Earth people? She would eventually have been very unhappy with John and he would have always felt something was missing with her.

John and Elizabeth's differences would have kept the spice in their relationship. The "neether-niither" moments would have kicked the flirting up a notch.

Yeah, on a couple of threads people have mentioned (in majority, I might add) 1) they never should have gotten rid of Weir and 2) she was their favorite leader. I think it's just beating a dead horse to say again that letting Elizabeth go was a mistake, but I'm always glad to hear more than just my friends say it.

What I liked about Teyla/Ronon was that Ronon always respected Teyla. In the episodes where Sheppard found out about her pregnancy, you saw how overprotective Sheppard could be. Not that he did it out of anything but concern and caring, but he still treated her with the 'gentleman's sense' of protection, whereas my take on Ronon was that he saw her as completely able to take care of herself and respected that always. I can't think of Ronon stepping in Teyla's way in any battle, at least not off the top of my head.

Ronon was like that with Elizabeth to a degree too--he protected her in stuff like TR, but he treated her fully with respect. I like him questioning her in CG flat out. She was his leader, and he treated her like the leader, not a woman-leader.

I have no doubt John would have been the knight-in-shining-armor for Elizabeth. But Elizabeth would have been okay with that because she was no warrior. That's another area where they balanced each other out.

On GITM: didn't Malozzi mention that it wasn't the real Weir? That they had ideas of the real Weir being secluded away somewhere? (the line in TMC where clone!Weir says 'I'm the only Weir out there' was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek line). Or did he say that now since things had come out the way they did with Torri and the end of the series, that GITM had become canon?

*shrugs* I still like the idea she's out there. For me, the replicators would be too baffled by her ability to just destroy her. They're logical, they'd want to know how she worked--how a human could control the nanites like that. So they made copies of her to test her 'human abilities' but the real Weir was still out there, locked away, and when Asuras was destroyed, nobody knew it.

I don't know much about the renegade Asgard, but isn't the Asgard's worst enemy the Replicators? It would make sense they came back in some form...

I may have to watch S5. Not just because people do seem to recommend it (and I like RP and JS, even with McKeller) but I'd like to be filled in for some of the holes.

I do honestly think that if Torri had agreed to come back, they may have included her in the hallucination, though my thought was that it may have been Teyla morphing into her. That would have wreaked havoc with all shippers.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family Saturday!

Good point on GitM. John even said "you may think you're Elizabeth but you're not". Maybe right up until the end he still wasn't sure. I hate to think he knowingly let her sacrifice herself. But you know in Siege 2 she did the same for him.

They really did drop the ball on the whole Weir story and it's a bit refreshing to see how many non-shipper fans who didn't care all that much about her at the time now see that.

And come to think of it, even the sacrifice thing isn't enough proof. After all, Clone!Weir sacrificed herself (along with the rest of the Clone!Team) in TMC, so while there's clearly some of Elizabeth in GitM Weir, enough for her to behave like the original (for the most part), there's still enough room for doubt.

The old opposites attract idea. It would be too trite to put Teyla with a warrior, even Ronon had his gentle side and that's why they would work. But she would not do well with a dominant he man character. Neither would she be satisfied with a man from another culture. How many times have we heard her and Ronon speak about needing to get away from the Earth people? She would eventually have been very unhappy with John and he would have always felt something was missing with her.

John and Elizabeth's differences would have kept the spice in their relationship. The "neether-niither" moments would have kicked the flirting up a notch.

Yes, I think the cultural differences are a big deal breaker for a long term relationship for John and Teyla. Initially, I can see both of them being attracted to each other by the novelty of those cultural differences, curiosity and wanting to learn about each other's way of life, etc. But ultimately, they'd find that they're too both too different in the way they view the world and too much the same in how they deal with things, too set in their ways to find a real, viable compromise, and we see that conflict come to the fore in episodes like Letters From Pegasus and BAMSR.

With John and Elizabeth, on the other hand, while they also have different ways of looking at things (he's a warrior, she's a former peace activist), they have the common ground of being from Earth and even from the same country on Earth. Those shared cultural experiences would form the basis for compromise in their case. While they've butted heads more than once, they've also respected and tried to understand each other's opinion instead of simply dismissing it out of hand.

Yeah, on a couple of threads people have mentioned (in majority, I might add) 1) they never should have gotten rid of Weir and 2) she was their favorite leader. I think it's just beating a dead horse to say again that letting Elizabeth go was a mistake, but I'm always glad to hear more than just my friends say it.

What I liked about Teyla/Ronon was that Ronon always respected Teyla. In the episodes where Sheppard found out about her pregnancy, you saw how overprotective Sheppard could be. Not that he did it out of anything but concern and caring, but he still treated her with the 'gentleman's sense' of protection, whereas my take on Ronon was that he saw her as completely able to take care of herself and respected that always. I can't think of Ronon stepping in Teyla's way in any battle, at least not off the top of my head.

Ronon was like that with Elizabeth to a degree too--he protected her in stuff like TR, but he treated her fully with respect. I like him questioning her in CG flat out. She was his leader, and he treated her like the leader, not a woman-leader.

I have no doubt John would have been the knight-in-shining-armor for Elizabeth. But Elizabeth would have been okay with that because she was no warrior. That's another area where they balanced each other out.

It's always good to hear more than just the Weir and Sparky fans saying it. Lets us know we're not suffering from some mass delusion.

Pegasus has always struck me as being much more egalitarian in gender roles than Earth and the Milky Way, and I'm sure that's due in large part to how the Wraith don't discriminate when culling populations. Everyone, regardless of age or gender, has to be ready to step up and assume the place of someone who's been taken by the Wraith in order for what's left of their people to survive post-culling. No doubt that is what guides Ronon's behavior towards Teyla, Elizabeth, Keller and Carter.

On GITM: didn't Malozzi mention that it wasn't the real Weir? That they had ideas of the real Weir being secluded away somewhere? (the line in TMC where clone!Weir says 'I'm the only Weir out there' was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek line). Or did he say that now since things had come out the way they did with Torri and the end of the series, that GITM had become canon?

*shrugs* I still like the idea she's out there. For me, the replicators would be too baffled by her ability to just destroy her. They're logical, they'd want to know how she worked--how a human could control the nanites like that. So they made copies of her to test her 'human abilities' but the real Weir was still out there, locked away, and when Asuras was destroyed, nobody knew it.

I don't know much about the renegade Asgard, but isn't the Asgard's worst enemy the Replicators? It would make sense they came back in some form...

I may have to watch S5. Not just because people do seem to recommend it (and I like RP and JS, even with McKeller) but I'd like to be filled in for some of the holes.

I do honestly think that if Torri had agreed to come back, they may have included her in the hallucination, though my thought was that it may have been Teyla morphing into her. That would have wreaked havoc with all shippers.

As I recall, Mallozzi had floated the idea on his blog that the original Weir might still be alive as far back as TMC, that Repli!Keller might have been lying when she claimed that Oberoth had killed Weir shortly after her capture. Then there was that interview with About.com a few months ago where he was asked about the storyline and said practically the same thing, that the Replicators might have kept her alive to study her. There was nothing in GitM that closed the door on that idea, so they could easily revisit it in the future if they stopped sitting on their hands and came up with a story that Torri would be happy with.

It would've been fitting to have Weir in the S&R hallucination, though I never heard anything about Torri being approached for that one, just Rainbow Sun Francks. But oh, if she'd been in there, that would've cracky fun.

[Southern Red]

Finally saw it! Great! Torri with red hair is awesome!!!




Yeah, on a couple of threads people have mentioned (in majority, I might add) 1) they never should have gotten rid of Weir and 2) she was their favorite leader. I think it's just beating a dead horse to say again that letting Elizabeth go was a mistake, but I'm always glad to hear more than just my friends say it.

What I liked about Teyla/Ronon was that Ronon always respected Teyla. In the episodes where Sheppard found out about her pregnancy, you saw how overprotective Sheppard could be. Not that he did it out of anything but concern and caring, but he still treated her with the 'gentleman's sense' of protection, whereas my take on Ronon was that he saw her as completely able to take care of herself and respected that always. I can't think of Ronon stepping in Teyla's way in any battle, at least not off the top of my head.

Ronon was like that with Elizabeth to a degree too--he protected her in stuff like TR, but he treated her fully with respect. I like him questioning her in CG flat out. She was his leader, and he treated her like the leader, not a woman-leader.

I have no doubt John would have been the knight-in-shining-armor for Elizabeth. But Elizabeth would have been okay with that because she was no warrior. That's another area where they balanced each other out.

On GITM: didn't Malozzi mention that it wasn't the real Weir? That they had ideas of the real Weir being secluded away somewhere? (the line in TMC where clone!Weir says 'I'm the only Weir out there' was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek line). Or did he say that now since things had come out the way they did with Torri and the end of the series, that GITM had become canon?

*shrugs* I still like the idea she's out there. For me, the replicators would be too baffled by her ability to just destroy her. They're logical, they'd want to know how she worked--how a human could control the nanites like that. So they made copies of her to test her 'human abilities' but the real Weir was still out there, locked away, and when Asuras was destroyed, nobody knew it.

I don't know much about the renegade Asgard, but isn't the Asgard's worst enemy the Replicators? It would make sense they came back in some form...

I may have to watch S5. Not just because people do seem to recommend it (and I like RP and JS, even with McKeller) but I'd like to be filled in for some of the holes.

I do honestly think that if Torri had agreed to come back, they may have included her in the hallucination, though my thought was that it may have been Teyla morphing into her. That would have wreaked havoc with all shippers.

Teyla would have knocked Ronon's head off if he got in her way. LOL And I have no doubt that the way John was raised has a lot to do with his gentlemanly sense toward women. He's treats them as equals..e.g. Sam...but also sees in certain cases they need to be protected. I think a lot of that must be JF's interpretation because I remember an interview where a reporter asked him about how Shep was treating Teyla in an old fashioned way and he practically went off on her. He asked the reporter is she thought pregnant women should be in combat. LOL

And seeing the little bit of Satedan culture we saw in the various episodes it looked like women were commonly warriors and treated equally.

After the series ended in a blog entry talking about potential plans for S6, Mallozzi did say that rescuing the real Weir was a plan but he also said whether the Weir in GitM was the real one or not depended on which writer you talked to. So it's pretty meaningless as plans change. Just look at the movie controversy. *shudders*

Since Gero was the writer of S&R, your scenario doesn't stand a chance but I still like it. LOL

[Scary Kitty]

Teyla would have knocked Ronon's head off if he got in her way. LOL And I have no doubt that the way John was raised has a lot to do with his gentlemanly sense toward women. He's treats them as equals..e.g. Sam...but also sees in certain cases they need to be protected. I think a lot of that must be JF's interpretation because I remember an interview where a reporter asked him about how Shep was treating Teyla in an old fashioned way and he practically went off on her. He asked the reporter is she thought pregnant women should be in combat. LOL

Hah! I remember that interview. Joe's right, and John's right. Under normal circumstances, yeah, Teyla can take care of herself. But once she got pregnant, she had a responsibility to not endanger her child.

'knocked Ronon's head off.' LMAO!

After the series ended in a blog entry talking about potential plans for S6, Mallozzi did say that rescuing the real Weir was a plan but he also said whether the Weir in GitM was the real one or not depended on which writer you talked to. So it's pretty meaningless as plans change. Just look at the movie controversy. *shudders*

*snorts* True enough. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for any of it. *sighs*

I think Mallozzi did finally mention that it was Mullie who wanted Weir dead, and Mallozzi had actually wanted to keep her around. Who'd'a thunk it.

Since Gero was the writer of S&R, your scenario doesn't stand a chance but I still like it. LOL

Me too. And hey, like you said, plans change; we know that the writers do give their input on each other's scripts, so Gero could always have been overruled.

[Southern Red]

Me too. And hey, like you said, plans change; we know that the writers do give their input on each other's scripts, so Gero could always have been overruled.

And was I'm sure on certain things.

Now I've finally finished my fluffy song fic. The song is When A Boy Falls in Love by Sam Cooke. You've got to hear the song because that will make all the difference.

And the fic part one:

Spoiler:

When A Boy Falls in Love

I've heard them say love was a wonderful thing
Something you couldn't hide on a shelf
But to me they no longer have to explain
Because I know for myself.

John Sheppard looked at himself in the mirror and grinned as he wiped the last of the shaving cream from his face. It was early, too early considering how little sleep he had had the night before, but John had never felt more awake and rested in his life. He tossed the towel back in the direction of the rack and picked up his comb. A few flicks through his mop of black hair and it was time to go.

Whistling as he left his room and moving down the corridor with a bounce in his step, John paused to look out a nearby expanse of glass at the rising sun. “Yes indeed,” he murmured to himself, “it's going to be a very good day.”

He awakens each morn with a smile on his face
When a boy is in love
And the world to him is a beautiful place
When a boy is in love

Ronon Dex took one last swipe with the whetstone on his razor sharp sword and looked at the light reflecting off the blade. Satisfied, he slid the weapon into its sheath and turned to observe his teammates. They were in the gear-up room getting ready to embark on a mission to hopefully set up a trade alliance with the inhabitants of a planet called Garlon. Teyla Emmagan was clipping her P-90 to her vest and checking her pockets to make sure she had all the proper supplies. Rodney McKay was stuffing his vest with energy bars and antiseptic wet wipes while keeping up a running commentary about how he thought he was coming down with a cold and hoped there wasn't going to be much walking. And across the room, their leader Lt. Col. John Sheppard was, to Ronon's total surprise, sitting on a bench twirling his pistol and smiling at something only he could see.

“Sheppard.” Ronon took a step closer and getting no response, raised his voice. “Sheppard, I think we're about ready.”

Teyla also turned toward John and observing his inattention, touched his arm. “Colonel Sheppard,” she said quietly, “I do believe we are ready to depart.”

John looked in her direction as if noticing he wasn't alone. “Oh, all righty,” He stood and holstered his weapon. “Let's go make some new friends.”

Teyla and Ronon exchanged a look but followed him from the room silently with McKay trailing behind.

“You know,” John was saying as they lined up waiting for the wormhole to engage, “I hear this planet is a garden paradise. Maybe we can pick some flowers.”

“Flowers?” Rodney snapped to attention. “Nobody said anything about flowers. Great, my allergies are already acting up. Just what I need.”

“It'll be fine Rodney,” the voice of Dr. Elizabeth Weir drifted down from where she was leaning on the balcony rail. “Maybe these are non-allergenic flowers. Now go bring us back a new alliance.” Her voice was light and teasing and she gave each of them a big smile, lingering a bit on John before she tilted her head back and lowered her eyes.

Not giving McKay a chance to answer, Ronon grabbed the back of his vest and tugged him through the event horizon through which Teyla had just disappeared. John turned and lifted a hand in farewell, then walked backwards into the wormhole. Elizabeth returned the small gesture and stood watching until the stargate shut down before whispering “Be safe” and turning back toward her office.

He's up and he's gone, there's no breakfast for him
'Cause he lives on the love of his sweet little gem
The days are through, though it's not very long
Before he must talk to his girl on the phone
That's how it is when a boy falls in love.

Garlon was indeed a garden paradise with tall trees and flowering bushes bordering a wide road that led to a distant village. Everything had a prosperous look. The air even smelled fresh and clean. Teyla took a deep breath and turned to observe the reaction of her teammates to the new world.

“This is most pleasing,” she said. “Visiting this world should make this an enjoyable day.”

“Hurmph,” Rodney had decided the trip through the wormhole needed to be capped off with a snack so he was stuffing his mouth with a food bar.

Ronon scanned the general area looking for danger while John shook his head to decline Rodney's offer of half his snack.

“What, you turn down food,” McKay commented. “Come to think of it I didn't see you at breakfast. Has that famous high metabolism caught up with you at last? You're not getting sick are you? Because if you are I'm staying as far away from you as possible until we get back.”

“I'm not sick, McKay,” John interrupted. “I'm just not hungry. So now can we please go?”

The team meandered down the path with Ronon in the lead and Teyla bringing up the rear. They passed carefully tended garden plots with oddly familiar looking vegetables and small groves of trees with heavily laden branches. The fruit looked like a cross between an apple and a pear and in places had dropped beneath the trees where bees buzzed in frantic pursuit of the ripe objects.

“Bees!” Rodney exclaimed as he tried to put John between himself and the offending insects.

“Yes, bees,” John grinned at the thought. “Can honey be far away?”

“What is with you today?” McKay wondered. “This 'oh look a pile of manure there's gotta be a pony here somewhere' optimism is not attractive.”

“Relax Rodney,” John ordered, gesturing around him expansively, “it's a beautiful day. We're in a beautiful place. Enjoy it.”

“If you say so.” Rodney continued swatting at imaginary bees. “But don't be surprised if flying monkeys suddenly appear and take us away to the wicked witch.”

“What?” Teyla sometimes didn't understand a thing Rodney was talking about.

“There are no witches, or monkeys for that matter,” John assured them. “And look, not a munchkin in sight.”

Teyla just shook her head and urged them to walk a bit faster. Ronon ignored everyone and kept his eyes on the road ahead.

On the outskirts of the village, John called a halt and pulled out his radio.

“I think we need to report in before we make contact.”

Surprised, the others waited expectantly. “Did Dr. Weir not say we were to report in after our meeting with the village elders?” Teyla wondered.

John was already dialing the Atlantis frequency and speaking to control. “Yeah, but it won't hurt to touch base.”

[Southern Red]

And fluffy songfic part two:

Spoiler:

His girl's voice on the phone brings him wondrous delight
When a boy is in love
If there's been any darkness it all fades from sight
When a boy is in love.

Soon the voice of their leader came on the radio. “Colonel, this is a surprise. Is everything all right?”

John smiled and looked sheepishly up at the sky. “All's well. Great in fact. It's a beautiful place. Wish you were here and all that.”

They could hear the laugh in Elizabeth's voice. “Well that's good. Have you met the Garlonians?”

“Not yet. We're about to enter the village.”

“Keep me posted.”

“You know I will.” John clicked off the radio and looked around at the puzzled faces of his team.

“Well boys and girl, don't just stand there. We're burning daylight.” Then he turned and strode confidently into the center of town with the others scrambling to catch up.

“Garlon,” Rodney was mumbling, “sounds like a new miracle fabric that won't wrinkle.”

“Shut up McKay,” Ronon growled and turned to observe the small group that was headed their way.

“Oh great, the cast of Braveheart meets A Midsummer Night's Dream.”

“Rodney,” Teyla said sternly. She didn't understand the references but knowing Rodney it had to be insulting.

“Well they look friendly.” John grinned and lowered his weapon.

He can hardly wait till the moment they meet
For he knows when he sees her, his day will be complete
When they're finally alone and he kisses her lips
The world sings a love song and his heart turns a flip
That's how it is when a boy falls in love.

“Move it McKay!” John turned around for at least the third time since leaving the village and gestured for Rodney to hurry up. They had been forced to sit through an interminable meal complete with flowery speeches and lingering goodbyes before their new friends allowed them to leave. Now they were on their way back to the stargate with John setting a grueling pace with little consideration for how the rest of them were to keep up.

“I didn't realize this was the 200 yard sprint back to the 'gate,” Rodney protested after taking out a hankie and wiping the sweat from his face.

“I must say John.” Even Teyla was breathing a bit heavier than usual. “You seem to be in a bit of a hurry to get home.”

“And nobody's even chasing us,” Ronon said.

“For once,” Rodney added.

John glanced around at them and just kept walking. “We don't want to be late,” he called back over his shoulder, “I told Elizabeth we'd be back by dark.”

Rodney stared at the small bunch of brilliant blue flowers peeking out of John's backpack and shook his head. “I'm sure she will forgive us if we arrive a few minutes late if we're still alive.” But John didn't reply and a silent plea to Ronon and Teyla for help only got shrugs as an answer. No one on the team had been able to figure out what was up with John. They agreed that he had been acting strangely all day and this unusually anxious behavior without there being any imminent danger was the latest manifestation.

After the luncheon at which John had picked at his food and spent a good deal of time staring into space, he had disappeared for a time with one of the Garlonian elders. When he returned he quickly shoved a small packet into his backpack alongside the bouquet of flowers he had picked earlier.

“Sheppard is acting very unSheppardlike,” Rodney said behind his hand to Teyla and Ronon. “He and that guy whose name sounds like Mick Jagger just did some kind of deal.”

Teyla sighed and spoke distinctly. “His name is Michagor and he is their leading medal worker. I understand he creates some very beautiful pieces.”

“Hum. Maybe he's in the market for a new knife or two for Ronon's birthday.”

This earned him a shove from Ronon but he too was looking in John's direction with a furrowed brow.

“Well it's puzzling,” Rodney went on. “He didn't even react when Miss Cleavage over there almost sat in his lap when she was serving the soup.” He pointed to indicate a rather voluptuous young woman who was currently trying to catch John's eye and failing.

“Yeah, that was a surprise,” Ronon agreed.

“Shhh...here he comes,” Rodney hissed in a loud whisper.

At this point John had informed them that he had spoken on the radio once again to Elizabeth and it was time to move out. The lengthy goodbye ceremony delayed them for another good while and by the time they started in the direction of the stargate John was visibly anxious to get moving.

“What's with all the calls to Atlantis today?” Rodney asked as they formed up and started walking down the road. “Did Elizabeth think we couldn't handle this one or is she, as usual, expecting us to get in trouble?”

“She likes to stay informed, McKay. Now stop gabbing and walk.”

At Rodney's puzzled look, Ronon and Teyla just shrugged and prodded him forward. The trip down the road took considerably less time than it had earlier and they stepped through the wormhole just before sunset.

“We're home,” John called as he looked up in the direction of Elizabeth's office.

“So you are. And in one piece too,” Elizabeth joked as she quickly descended the stairs to meet them.

Rodney started taking rapidly, telling her about the Garlonians and the new trading alliance they had agreed to. He wound down when he realized she didn't appear to be listening because so far her eyes hadn't left John's face. He wasted a few seconds looking back and forth between them until Teyla pulled on his sleeve.

“Come Rodney,” she said. “Let us turn in our weapons and report for our post mission check up. You can fill Dr. Weir in on all that later.”

Rodney blinked at her, took another couple of glances at the man and woman that still hadn't spoken or moved, blinked several more times and followed his teammates from the room.

Their departure seemed to wake John from his stupor and dipping his head he gave Elizabeth a sheepish grin. “Dr. Weir, “ he said loudly for the benefit of the staff members that were still within hearing, “do you have a moment? I uh...have something of interest to show you.” He lifted his backpack in one hand and she caught sight of the blue blossoms just visible out of one corner.

“Why yes, Colonel, right this way.” She turned and preceded him up the stairs.

At the end of the day the time comes they must part
The strains of regret tear away at his heart
And late in the night, as he sleeps in his bed
Visions of her sweet charms, how they dance in his head
And before you know, he is buying a ring
To capture forever that sweet darling thing
That's how it is when a boy falls in love.

Reluctantly John entered his empty room and waved the lights on. The chill night air ruffled the curtain at the window he had forgotten to close earlier and a shaft of moonlight fell across the floor. Crossing to the window and pulling it closed, John looked out and across to the next tower with a wistful smile on his face. The small backpack he had abandoned shortly after his return from Garlon caught his attention and sitting on the edge of his bed, he reached inside. The bundle was still there, carefully wrapped in cloth and secured with twine. John untied it and held the object inside in his hand tightly. Almost reverently he opened the drawstring on the little bag and shook its contents into his hand. The circle of medal was cool on his palm and felt heavier than expected. Slipping it onto the tip of his finger, John held it up so that the green stone glittered in the light.

“With this ring,” John whispered, then looked around in embarrassment at his own sentimentality as if expecting to find himself suddenly not alone. Returning the ring to its pouch, John went about preparing to grab a few hours of precious sleep before having to resume his duties as military commander.

After all, tomorrow was going to be an important day. He needed to be well rested. John settled into his bed with a sigh and wiggled around to find a comfortable spot. The pillow was cold and he was lonely but recent memories and high hopes for tomorrow helped to relax his overtaxed brain and with one last smile he drifted off to what could only be very good dreams.

[Eri13]

^snippity snip snip

As I recall, Mallozzi had floated the idea on his blog that the original Weir might still be alive as far back as TMC, that Repli!Keller might have been lying when she claimed that Oberoth had killed Weir shortly after her capture. Then there was that interview with About.com a few months ago where he was asked about the storyline and said practically the same thing, that the Replicators might have kept her alive to study her. There was nothing in GitM that closed the door on that idea, so they could easily revisit it in the future if they stopped sitting on their hands and came up with a story that Torri would be happy with.

It would've been fitting to have Weir in the S&R hallucination, though I never heard anything about Torri being approached for that one, just Rainbow Sun Francks. But oh, if she'd been in there, that would've cracky fun.

Teyla would have knocked Ronon's head off if he got in her way. LOL And I have no doubt that the way John was raised has a lot to do with his gentlemanly sense toward women. He's treats them as equals..e.g. Sam...but also sees in certain cases they need to be protected. I think a lot of that must be JF's interpretation because I remember an interview where a reporter asked him about how Shep was treating Teyla in an old fashioned way and he practically went off on her. He asked the reporter is she thought pregnant women should be in combat. LOL

And seeing the little bit of Satedan culture we saw in the various episodes it looked like women were commonly warriors and treated equally.

After the series ended in a blog entry talking about potential plans for S6, Mallozzi did say that rescuing the real Weir was a plan but he also said whether the Weir in GitM was the real one or not depended on which writer you talked to. So it's pretty meaningless as plans change. Just look at the movie controversy. *shudders*

Since Gero was the writer of S&R, your scenario doesn't stand a chance but I still like it. LOL

Hah! I remember that interview. Joe's right, and John's right. Under normal circumstances, yeah, Teyla can take care of herself. But once she got pregnant, she had a responsibility to not endanger her child.

'knocked Ronon's head off.' LMAO!

*snorts* True enough. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for any of it. *sighs*

I think Mallozzi did finally mention that it was Mullie who wanted Weir dead, and Mallozzi had actually wanted to keep her around. Who'd'a thunk it.

Me too. And hey, like you said, plans change; we know that the writers do give their input on each other's scripts, so Gero could always have been overruled.

Yeah, I remember his answers on the blog after TMC about questioning Repli!Keller's honesty. But I thought that 'question' was essentially answered with GITM--because that was Weir, and it was initially supposed to be Torri. But after all the stuff with Torri not coming back, it really surprised me he came out and said that Weir was a potential for Season 6, because I figured they'd say 'space-gated and done'.

I don't think it was something he was really considering after the business with Torri, but it surprised me he said it (as it surprised me he mentioned that line in 'Remnants' with Kolya using Weir as a taunt for Sheppard.) With as much as Mallozzi seemed to not care about Weir (at least, as a Weir fan, it felt that way to me) it surprised me he wasted time talking about her following GITM.

As for Mullie--well, that I think is something where we don't know the full story. He could have really disliked Weir, or he could have felt like Torri and wanted Weir to be over with out of respect for the character--not kept dragging her story out. If I'm not mistaken, out of the four PTB, there was one who thought removing Weir was a bad idea. We just don't know who.

As for the hallucination scene--my 'guess?' Yeah, on one hand Gero would have not have wanted Weir there, but also there was the business aspect. I don't wonder that if the part between Torri and the PTB had been more 'amenable' that Weir would have popped up MUCH more often as a cameo star--maybe in that scene, and perhaps in stuff like Doppelganger, Remnants, and Vegas. That's all just speculation on my part, of course, but she could have done some great stuff as a guest star.